Starting EASY w/a 4.5 month old. Tips if pupd for short naps runs to eating time

[Lcollier22]

Hello everyone. Thanks for this great forum.

I've started EASY with my 20week old son almost 2 weeks ago. He was not on a schedule before. We travelled a lot. He is/was a comfort nurser and was eating every 2-2.5 hours or so and barely napping at all. I've seen many improvements so far - now I have basically no issues with his former feeding sleep association, he takes at least one 1.5hr nap per day, sometimes more, and his nights are a bit more predictable. Plus, he's less grumpy bc he's sleeping better.

Just as background, we started on a 3hr EASY, bc he was super tired and used to eating frequently. He is exclusively breastfeeding. Now, we've gradually moved to a 3.5 hour, with an A time of about 2 hrs. I try to watch his cues, but he's a sensitive baby and I feel like if he gets OT or overstimulated it happens very quickly. If I catch the window before naps, he goes to sleep in about 5 mins with a little shhhpat and basically no crying.

I need some help with what to do if he wakes from his naps early, or during the night near feeding time. Today, for example, I put him down for nap #2. It took a bit for him to settle, so we were a little behind schedule. Then, he woke up early. My understanding is that I should try to get him to take the nap until the scheduled end time. So, I did shhhpat/pupd for about 20 mins. Well, he was still screaming and we were very close to feeding time, so I stopped, calmed him down and then fed him. For his third nap, I was careful to give him time to wind down. He fell asleep in about 5 mins with a little crying (which I used shhhpat for). Well, 30 mins later he was up and crying. I started shhhpat and pupd and he wound mptbcalm down at all. It was one of the worst times in the past 2 weeks. After 40 mins it was time for him to eat again. So, I stopped and fed him.

Is this right? I feel like I'm just teaching him that if he cries hard and long enough that he gets fed. At the same point, I don't want to be continuing if he's hungry just so I can "win".

I'm having trouble gauging if we are on the right EASY schedule. Our day basically looks like this:

8am - wake up and feed
9:30 - first nap. He's always more tired in the morning
11am - wake and feed
1pm : nap 2
2:30 - wake and feed
4:30 - short nap
5:15 - wake and feed
7:30 - top up feed
7:45 - bedtime routine
8/8:15 - asleep
11 - dream feed
4 or 5 am night feed

I know that for his age he should be moving towards a 4hr EASY. At this point I don't think he can do more than 2hrs of A time and it's a chore to get him to wait longer than 3.5 hrs to eat. Any tips or tweaks would be very welcome.

Thanks in advance!
Laura

[claredm]

I'm struggling with a lot of similar problems ....
Perhaps a top up feed 30 mins before nap. I do about a half feed on one side. That will eliminate the potential hunger cause of short naps.
I read that exclusively breastfed babies struggle to go 3.5-4 hours between feeds.

But ... I"m not experienced at all, so i'm interested to see what the real whisperers say.

[Lcollier22]

Thanks, Claire! That might be something to try. I don't actually think that it's hunger waking him up, but I think that after 15-30 mins of pupd, it becomes hunger that makes him not settle back down. My DS has always insisted on eating very regularly, so even getting him to 3.5hrs between feeds is a win for me.

Sorry to hear that you're struggling with similar issues! I hope we both find solutions that work for our babies.

[creations]

Welcome to BW forums Lcollier

Sounds like you've made a wonderful start to EASY and had great success in the 2 wks since you started - lovely news

Thanks for stopping by with your support clairedm, you are absolutely right that some babies just can't make it to 4hr E at this age.

Is this right?

Yes, you're doing brilliantly.  One of the methods when getting onto the routine is try to resettle for a good length of time when there is a short nap, it teaches LO that it is nap time. However if E time is approaching you can feed a little earlier, LO has used up more calories from fussing or crying hard so will be hungry a little earlier, you don't need to try to resettle right up to the very end of the nap time.  If LO is not making any progress towards being resettled at all I would suggest you don't go on longer than 40 mins, if it is really clear sooner that he is not going to or is hungry you can stop sooner.

At your LOs age you could be experiencing a GS so claire's suggestion to try a top up feed prior to nap time might be worth a shot for a couple of days.
I'll just highlight a couple of places in your EASY where things could be getting tricky:

8am - wake up and feed
9:30 - first nap. He's always more tired in the morning
11am - wake and feed

here E is at 3hrs, it's fine

11am - wake and feed
1pm : nap 2
2:30 - wake and feed

here E is at 3.5hrs and he has likely managed this because he was sleeping (it's easier to go longer between E when asleep)

2:30 - wake and feed
4:30 - short nap
5:15 - wake and feed

Here, as last E time was 2.30, 3hr later would be 5.30pm  There is a chance that a top up before this nap could possibly have helped him take a longer nap - you could try it.  I say this because you've mentioned he only seems happy to go 3.5hrs sometimes, not all the time which means waiting 2.30 - 6pm (which would be the end of the nap if it was 1.5hr long) could be a bit too long for him just yet.  he can possibly manage it once in the day but perhaps not twice, it could just be that he is ready to move closer to 3.5 hrs in a couple of weeks or in another month.

5:15 - wake and feed
7:30 - top up feed
7:45 - bedtime routine
8/8:15 - asleep

You haven't said there are any problems with night time, in fact you said it's going well. If this is working well for you then you dont' need to change anything, but if you are struggling at BT or with early night NWs then re-think this last A time which is longer than the other A times and could possibly cause OT before BT.

Is this right? I feel like I'm just teaching him that if he cries hard and long enough that he gets fed. At the same point, I don't want to be continuing if he's hungry just so I can "win".

BW is really not about winning or losing. There is sometimes an approach from parents (or comments from friends, family or others) that we mustn't give in to baby and that parents must "win" in some sort of power struggle. Instead try to think of your routine with LO more as team work.  You can and will impose some things on your LO but respectfully, not all-out competition or battle of wills to "win".
His job is to communicate with you to let you know he is hungry, tired, or needs a cuddle.
Your job is to (do your best to) understand and respond to that communication - EASY makes it a lot easier to understand what he might be asking for because of the predictability of the routine.  There can stioll be times it's hard to understand the communication though!
If he is hungry and cries for food and you give it to him he has not "won" and you have not "lost" - he has been responded to with food which is what he needed, and you have responded to him which is what you do as a parent.  If you switch your thinking to a team work approach it may feel more comfortable (it can be hard sometimes to make that switch as often in our modern society it is not what we have been led to believe is the way forward with our LOs) and you might feel better about the whole routine thing.

here is a link to W2S, could you have a look at naps option 1 and give this a try for the place in your routine where the nap is predictably shorter than the others:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
The idea is that it teaches LO to sleep longer for that nap, it is often easier to get them through the transition if you begin before they fully wake up, the resettling process if they do wake can be easier too.  Maybe give it a go for a few days.

I do honestly think you are doing brilliantly so keep on as you are.  And feel free to come back with an update or more questions

But ... I"m not experienced at all, so i'm interested to see what the real whisperers say.

lol We are all Mummies, just like you   There are no "experts" here, only people who found this place, were supported by others and decided to stick around. I found the forums when my LO was 4.5 months old and I have never left.  My DS is 6yo now and I still ask for support when I need it.  We love members of the community helping and supporting one another so do please post where you feel you have some advice to offer based on your own experiences or to offer a hand to hold for those who need it.
I hope you both love it here as much as we do and stay around whilst your LOs grow up into big ones

[annesmama]

FWIW, here's my experience with a couple of things you mentioned. (We're still a work in progress, though, so take with a grain of salt   I have a thread on here too in the General Sleep Issues forum.)

Re: making it to 3.5 or 4 hours:
My LO is also EBF and she only makes it to 4 hours if her naps go long. If short, she'll get hungry sooner and that's OK.  Sometimes it's as soon as 3h, but usually closer to 3.5h -- just depends on how much time she's been awake and what she's been doing.

Re: resettling the third nap:
I can't remember when the last time was she did a long third nap -- her third nap is always 30 minutes to 1 hour tops.  I think this is a common pattern for some babies?  She's 5.5 mos, so a little older than your LO, but I think she's working on phasing that nap out as her A times go up.

Re: when to resettle, how long to resettle:
I do resettling by feel these days -- if she's awake and happy, I try only briefly -- if it doesn't work, I let her have A time until next feed.  If she's awake and crying with her eyes shut or nearly-shut, she's often tired and will resettle within 5-10 minutes.  If she's awake and crying with eyes open, or if she "settles" but then gets unsettled repeatedly, it usually means she's hungry or not tired enough to sleep more.

[Lcollier22]

Wow -- creations and annesmom -- thank you for your responses! I read both of them 2 days ago and didn't have a chance to reply until now.  You've really helped me reflect on my EASY routine.  Every day is a bit different.

Annesmom- Yeah, I am fine with him having a catnap for the 3rd one. we just haven't really gotten the rhythm down yet. I think it's a good strategy for resettling. I'll try to get a read on him when he wakes early. I feel like some days are just trying to get him to sleep/ stay asleep.

Creations -- I love the way you put it that LO and I are a team working together on this.  The idea of winning or losing didn't seem right with anything I've read from Tracy or the forums and it's not the philosophy I want to have either. 

Also, thanks for the W2S links. ive tried in these past weeks with mixed success.

It's interesting what you've said about my afternoons. Below, I'm including our actual days from yesterday and today because they have been a bit of a mess. -

11am - wake and feed
1pm : nap 2
2:30 - wake and feed
here E is at 3.5hrs and he has likely managed this because he was sleeping (it's easier to go longer between E when asleep)

Quote from: Lcollier22 on July 24, 2017, 18:03:25 pm
2:30 - wake and feed
4:30 - short nap
5:15 - wake and feed

Here, as last E time was 2.30, 3hr later would be 5.30pm  There is a chance that a top up before this nap could possibly have helped him take a longer nap - you could try it.  I say this because you've mentioned he only seems happy to go 3.5hrs sometimes, not all the time which means waiting 2.30 - 6pm (which would be the end of the nap if it was 1.5hr long) could be a bit too long for him just yet.  he can possibly manage it once in the day but perhaps not twice, it could just be that he is ready to move closer to 3.5 hrs in a couple of weeks or in another month.

I'm still trying to figure out the afternoon naps and Es.  I tend to try to feed more as we get closer to bedtime. not really cluster feeding, but trying to get calories in during the day. That second nap was the hardest one to get him down for, and I think he can do a longer A time. However, Im now having trouble with the morning nap, too.  Yesterday and today, for example, has gone like this so far:

4:45am - Night feed and back to sleep immediately
8am - E wake and first feed
---- A
10am - S  We started to wind down at 9:20 or so and usually this is the easiest one, but today not so much. it took until 10for him to settle and sleep.
10:40 - wake up. I tried to resettle him until 11 but he was not a happy camper, so I sat him near his favorite window and he looked out for a while.
11:15 - E
----- A
1:30 - S on the go. He slept in his stroller. He was zoning out but not sleeping since about 1:10 or 1:15.

2:40 - wake up

3:00 - E He wasn't hungry right when he woke up. We were at a friend's house and he was quite distracted for this feed.

----- A

5:20- E I tried to settle him for a nap at 5ish and he was showing hunger cues, so we had a good, non-distracted meal.

5:50 - S it took about 10mins to settle him.

6:30 woke him up to not ruin bedtime

-----A

7:20 E He was begging for this because he knows he eats at the beginning of bedtime routine
7:45 - start bedtime routine (diaper change, goodnight moon, song, then put him in bed)
7:55 - S out like a light. He goes down really easily at bedtime (for now, at least!)
10:45 - dreamfeed


Then today - we didn't do as well on napping

5:15 - night feed (this is usually 5 hours and 45 mins after he finishes his dream feed, no matter when between 10 and 11pm that i feed him)

7:50 - wake up

8am -E first feed

----- A I tried to pay attention to his cues but didn't get it quite right

10:20 - S I started to get him ready for the nap just after 9:30. He was very unhappy and screaming through 15 mins of pupd, so we took a 15min break until 10am. Then we went down without screaming but it still took 20mins to settle him into sleep. I tried W2S here without success

11am - He wakes up. I tried to settle him back down but after 10 -15 mins he had wound himself up again so I decided to stop.

11:15 - E - this actually ended up being in two parts because of a phone call I had to take

-----  A

12:00 - E part 2

-----  A We went out and I had him in a front carrier, which usually calms him, but he was not having it

2:40 - S after a long time of shhpat, pupd, singing, general calming. This was because I was counting on him sleeping at least a bit in the front carrier and he didnt so his a time was way too long

3:15 E - look who is awake and hungry!

----- A

4:20 - S I actually tried to resettle him starting a bit before 4, because he was very tired after eating. I think this migt have worked except a poopy diaper ruined the plan and woke him up. After the change his was obviously overtired and we spent 30mins calming him down

That brings us to now 5:15pm. He's still sleeping!  Yay!

I feel like i have spent all day trying to help an OT baby sleep. Poor guy. If I miss the window of sleep opportunity then everything goes haywire! I have been trying to be conscious of feeding before naps and I think that will help us. Our dr recommended starting solids at 5 months, which is the end of next week, so I guess that will change things as well.

I know that these are pretty crazy days, but that seems to be all I can manage sometimes. Any more tips would be great.

Also, when he is really riled up during pupd, I often use movement (gentle swaying) to calm him down. I keep him upright and don't sway him to sleep, but he calms down much faster, which often means less time overall because he doesnt get so worked up. Thoughts on this? I know rocking to sleep is a no-no.


Regardless, even these past days have been an improvement, because we went from basically no routine and sometimes no naps with a serious nursing sleep prop, to getting into a rhythm, at least a bit, and some napping. Also, nights are more predictable.

thanks again for the help. every day is an adventure.

[creations]

Hi there - rally glad to hear the posts have helped you and that you feel you've made progress already   That's great!

I am short on time right now so just a short reply.

You could be starting your wind down a bit too early, you're going to aim to have him asleep by 2hrs A time.  if you start your WD 40 mins before he might be really annoyed you took away his play time and he might kick up a stink about it.  At this age yawns and eye rubbing can be misinterpreted, it can be a sign of boredom and wanting a changing in activity rather than being tired. Try another toy or just look out the window together for a while then head up for nap a bit later with perhaps 20 mins WD rather than longer.  Some don't even like the 20 mins, mine liked 5 mins, that's the team work aspect. Mine threw a screaming fit to kindly let me know he was not ready to sleep and I had to work out what he was saying. Once I worked it out he was happier and putting down for naps was a breeze.

Also, when he is really riled up during pupd, I often use movement (gentle swaying) to calm him down. I keep him upright and don't sway him to sleep, but he calms down much faster, which often means less time overall because he doesnt get so worked up. Thoughts on this? I know rocking to sleep is a no-no.

rocking as a prop is a non-no but rocking in general I think is often misunderstood. Tracy does say somewhere in the BW books that if a LO doesn't like patting then rock, and advises a forward backward motion rather than side to side as it is closer to the movement known from being in the womb.  Which ever way you rock, as a calming method it's fine in my opinion. My LO couldn't be patted as it flared up reflux, I rocked and I reduced the rocking in the same way that shush/pat is reduced and weaned. The thing is that to avoid it being a prop you need to get LO into the cot - so by all means use it to calm him and then put him back down, and you can use a firm hand on him in the cot and rock him that way. I used a firm hand on the nappy area and did a very small movement like a jiggle, like the kind of vibration you get in a car seat.  This can be weaned so it's fine if it helps your LO.
The thing is to avoid props which can't be reduced and weaned easily.

hope this helps

[Lcollier22]

   Tracy does say somewhere in the BW books that if a LO doesn't like patting then rock, and advises a forward backward motion rather than side to side as it is closer to the movement known from being in the womb

Yes! I remember seeing that in the description of the touchy baby. I do something in between, I suppose. Thanks for the reassurance.

Well, just in case it's helpful for someone else, I think my LO was really sleep deprived when we started because now he's handling longer A times like a champ. It is definitely helpful for me to add an extra fees in the afternoon so I get EAEAS.

These past few days we've ended up doing only 2 long naps with a long wind down in his crib, so there's no abrupt transition from A to S. I'm amazed. It's certainly not perfect at all, but we are going forward.

One thing I've noticed, (perhaps this warrants a new thread) as I've been focusing on days, the nights are sliding a bit. We had worked to a 10:30 or 10:45 dreamfeed and then a feeding at around 4:45 or 5:15. Now, that feeding keeps getting earlier. Last night he woke up at 3:45. I don't think I'm feeding less during the day, so I'm not sure what to do. Any thoughts?

Thank you again for the tips and support!

[creations]

It's good to hear things are moving in the right direction

With the night feed moving earlier.  It could just be that he is more hungry and can't go quite as long, a growth spurt perhaps.  I wouldn't be too concerned. There is one benefit to it being earlier which is that it is often easier to get a LO back to sleep at 3/4 something rather than 5 ish.  5am it tends to be a really tricky time to get LOs back to sleep so really if the NF comes earlier it could be more useful to you in that sense - even though it interrupts your own night sleep, you might get another short sleep after the NF rather than struggling with a resettle from 5 - 7am.  Hope that makes sense.

[Lcollier22]

Thanks again!