how to beat the 45 minutes nap ?

[*niki*]

Hi !
So DD is 3.5 months old and really struggles to transition from 1 cycle to the next for naps.  It's frustrating because she sleeps through most of the night (7PM-5AM) without waking so i know she CAN do it.   She also falls asleep with very little help.. sometimes with dummy, sometimes sucking on her hand (not swaddled).

I've tried WTS and going in around the 35 minutes mark to hold her down, give dummy back without much success.. i can't say she's jolting herself awake, it's more that she starts wiggling/ stirring and just wakes up - happy most of the time..  if i try to put her back to sleep in bed, it's a crying/screaming match that can last more than an hour.. up to the next feeding time.

Because i'm at work, DH is home and although he is amazing with her, it's not really his thing to spend 30 minutes trying to get her back to sleep.. so when she wakes up after 45 minutes, he's been going out for walks with her in the stroller.. she then falls back asleep within 5-10 minutes and will sleep for 2+ hours (we leave stroller outside in backyard, under supervision..)  So i know she needs the long nap !

So i guess i'm looking for advise on how to help her transition better / success stories... we're quite happy walking with her, but i know this is AP and won't find it so much fun once summer is over !!
TIA

[*niki*]

update : just after i wrote this, DD slept 2.5 hours on her own !  only thing i did different was to lay her on her side ..(?)

[deb]

Have you seen this? https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=649.0

Is your baby a refluxy baby? What's her EASY like these days?

[*niki*]

Hi and thanks for you reply,  here's a bit more info..

Yes i did read that post a little while back and tried different strategies but no great improvement so far..

Reflux is a tricky one.. she spits up a lot, but doesn't seem to have any discomfort (happy spitter type).  More of an immature sphincter i think.  Regardless, i've put her on zantac for 2 weeks now and the head of her bed is on blocks.

Our routine is as follows.  I'm basically aiming for a 4hr EASY (for the last 3-4 weeks) with 1.5hr A-time (sometimes 15 min more).  She is bottle fed 4x/day and takes 6-8oz each feed.  Sometimes takes another 2oz if the wakes up too early.

This is how yesterday went :

7am wake-up start of day
E : 8oz
A 7-8h30
S 8h30-9h15.. shh/patt 30 min : still screaming... out in stroller
S (in stroller) 10-11h30

E 11h30 : 8oz
A : 11h30 - 13h
S : 13h-13h45 : again shh/patt 30 min.. out in stroller
S : 14h - 16h

E : 16h 6oz
A : 16h-17h30
S : 17h30-18h15
A : 18h15- 19h30
E : 19h15 : 8oz

Sleep for the night 19h30
NW : 2h30 - back asleep with dummy
NW/NF : 5AM - bottle 2oz
7h30 AM : Awake for the day

.. I'm realistic and know she's still young.. i'd love for her to have at least 1 good nap/day in her bed, on her own.. right now, it's more like 1 good nap every second day..

[creations]

Hi there
Looking at the info you've given it sounds like an extra 15 mins A time and really giving W2S a good go could help.  W2S is not just about jolts at the transition but also about teaching LO that she needs to move into another sleep cycle and stay asleep (or go back to sleep) rather than fully wake.  Taking her out in the stroller is getting her a longer nap but it's reinforcing that she should wake, call out and then go to the stroller for another nap rather than reinforcing that she needs to sleep in her bed.
W2S is usually done in cycles, 3 days of W2S and then 1 day off to see what happens, followed by another cycle and again until she learns.

I totally understand that your DH doesn't want to spend 30 mins with her screaming trying to get her back to sleep in her cot, it's not a pleasant experience for many of us to be honest and if you're home all day with a LO it can just be too much doing that for every sleep throughout the day.

Also, although napping in the stroller is considered AP, and yes it could make life more difficult once summer is over, there are some benefits to having a LO who can sleep in a stroller - for one thing it makes it easier to get out and about to baby and toddler groups or out for lunch or shopping.  Having a LO who *only* sleeps in their bed can be just as hard to work around as having one who *will not* sleep in their own bed - especially when A times are so short as it just doesn't give enough time to get out and get back home (plus all the feeding and changing, floor time etc) before the next nap is due.

You and DH might decide you'd like to keep some stroller naps - is it possible for the stroller to be indoors when the weather is not so good?  Is it possible for DH to try a W2S in the cot on the first nap of the day every day but continue with the stroller naps for the rest of the day?  It's just a suggestion.  Maybe you've spotted some local baby groups at a certain time which he could walk LO to whilst napping, spend an A time there and have another nap on the way home?
Babies tend to build habits per nap so it is possible to make a habit of a long cot nap for nap 1 whilst having a stroller nap for nap 2 etc.  Doing the same type of nap at the same time each day helps to create those habits.

[*niki*]

Thanks for your suggestions..
I do appreciate the baby being flexible and able to sleep on the go.. although i also realise she needs to sleep longer in her own bed too.. it feels really strange that she can transition so well at night and in the stroller, yet never in the bed..

I will give W2S a try this weekend when i'm home.. so that's at least 2 days in a row.. i'm afraid she'll wake up fully and i won't be able to just get her to stir a little - we'll see !  i'm sure if there is some improvement, DH will be on board to keep trying !  I'll update after a few tries !
Thanks !

[creations]

If you review the W2S FAQ the method I suggest is not to stir her but to help her right through the transition, I don't seem to be able to link right now but it's in the SLEEP FAQ, and inside the W2S thread it is naps option 1.

Night sleep and day sleep are different, the development of learning to transition at night really has no bearing on learning to transition during the day, it's very common for LOs to be able to sleep a longer stretch at night and not for day naps.
She might have learned to transition in the stroller because she's been on the move so as she has come into lighter sleep she has in effect been given a W2S because she has been soothed by the rocking motion of walking and gone into another sleep cycle, it probably wouldn't have taken all that long of doing this for her to learn to sleep longer there which can then lead to the ability to make those transitions even when not on the move (ie when stroller has stopped) because the environment is the same and she's already been taught to stay asleep.  This is what W2S ion the cot can do.  You might find a little rocking motion using a firm hand on her whilst she is in the cot can imitate the stroller movement and help teach her to transition in the cot too.

hang on - I managed to open that link for W2S. Here you go:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0

[*niki*]

Hi again - so i'm home today and decided to give this a go..
She fully refused to go down for her first nap this morning, which is unusual.. ended up overtired with a 30 min nap.. had a short, quiet A-time, feed and back to bed..
I stirred her gently at 30 min and she's been asleep so far 1h40 min !

This might just be random or related to the OT morning session, but it's the longest she slept in her bed during daytime in over a week... we'll keep trying and let you know how it goes !

[*niki*]

One more thing - i've not tried to push her A-time which is in average 1h30 because she starts acting tired around 1h10-1h15 and then we do quiet time.
She is now 15 weeks old.. i see in the average a-time that she should be nearer 1h45-2h by 4 months..
Do you suggest i try extending it or wait a couple more weeks ?

[deb]

I'd try extending it gradually & gently: maybe some quiet time in her room, see if you can keep her awake low-key for another 10-15 minutes?

[*niki*]

Update : we're working on both extending a-time and W2S.. sometimes she'll stay up for 1h45 - sometimes at 1h30 she starts to fall asleep in play mat or swing, so i just put her in bed.

W2S has not been a success yet.. i've tried going in at 25-30 min, i don't feel like i stir her too much, but she often ends up waking up fully 5 minutes later.  Otherwise, she'll still wake up at the 45 minute mark.. she's had one longer nap (60 min) this afternoon without any help.  Staying with her to try getting her through the transition hasn't worked either.. she doesn't really jolt, but just stirs herself awake and as soon as she opens her eyes and sees us, she seems ready to play !  she doesn't like a dummy much either so if i try it, she fights it instead of being soothed.

i have to say i don't know what to make of all this... the fact she's happy when she wakes up makes me thinks she's UT, but the A-time of 1h30 really seems to suit her better with falling asleep easily, without much crying, if any, and sometimes even falling asleep while playing..  and in the stroller, she'll normally sleep for 2 more hours so i figure she needs it..? and not a chronic short napper..?

[creations]

If you can review the W2S FAQ I linked for you above, look at naps option 1.  You don't actually stir baby with this method. You see her through the transition.

She sounds UT and as PP has suggested the A time likely needs to be increased.

[*niki*]

Thanks for your advice !
Update : we are now on day 5 of consistent 2-hour naps in AM + PM and catnap late afternoon.  I go in at 35 min and hold her down till 50-55 min.... and success !  feels great !   A-time is 1h40.. i'll work on extending it more in the next few weeks, but it seems to be her sweetspot for now !

I'm scared to stop going in for naps, but won't have a choice as i work long hours this weekend.. fingers crossed she's truly learned to link the cycles !

[deb]

YAY! Great update!

I didn't want to stop going in either but one day I fell asleep while DD napped and woke up 2 hours later when she did! :O After that, 19 out of 20 naps were no problem until new teeth or developmental stuff.

[creations]

Great update
Yes there was a time I used W2S lots (DS was about 11 months and dropping to one nap) and had to do it daily for a while.