Author Topic: FTM and would like some sleep  (Read 7130 times)

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Offline ZanesOTmom

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FTM and would like some sleep
« on: July 30, 2017, 13:21:40 pm »
Hi everyone. I've a newbie on the site but have been lurking and doing some research on things I can work on for baby and I to get some sleep.

Some background: I'm a FTM and ds was a term baby with low birthweight. He's finally caught on. I've been following EASY loosely since he's 2 months but did not have a consistent routine/schedule. He's always slept on my arms but I transferred him to a dockatot beside me in bed in the nursery more than a month ago. He's been waking up 2-4 times nightly. I transferred his dockatot to his crib about a week ago and had been keeping track of EASY. It's been hellish since in terms of sleep. I decided to finally follow it more strictly yesterday and he's been able to stay up about 1h35m A time, working towards 1h45m. He is turning 4 months tomorrow.

Here's our routine from yesterday:
WU and E 7am (A 1.30) - formula
S 0830 (1.45) up after 24m, sh/pat then slept again for 10m then sh/pat for 55min sleep)

E 1015 - bf and formula (A 1.33 - very tired, had to push)
S 1148 (1.35) - woke up after WTS option 1 but went back to sleep with sh/pat

E 1323 - bf and formula (A 1.33 - pushed hard past 1.25)
S 1456 (1.35) - slept well with sh/pat

E 1644 - formula (A 1h43m - took a while to fall asleep)
CN 1827 (26m) then E- bf

Bath, WD (massage, story, prayer) at 1915 for 15min
CF - bf and formula, took a long time ~40m
Sh/pat til he finally slept at 2110 for 40m then again at 2200 for 40m. BF and formula-fed again, slept for 2.20 but he was in bed with me. Woke up again and slept from 0130-0530 with me, on boob. I was still sleep deprived (3h sleep from the night before) and just gave up to get some sleep. But I want to do better tonight now that I'm better rested.

I know babies sleeping through the night is not a myth as I've read lots of success stories. It just seems so out of reach for me right now and would appreciate some help. DS had been up minimum 4 times since I transferred him to the crib. It takes 8-15m to get him to nap and is getting better. However, night sleep is a different story. It could be anywhere from 30m to 2h from clusterfeed. He's slept through the night only once - 7h40m; he had 5x30m naps during the day and I don't want to replicate that day again. I tried PU/PD but he seemed to get more stimulated. I put him down but he cries so I carry him while sh/patting then put him down when very drowsy - this is the only one that's worked. Then sh/pat while he protests then eventually falls asleep. I also tried dreamfeed and it worked for the first night. The next 3 nights had been hell a waking up 4-5times after DF. I might try again once we get more settled into his routine. I've stopped swaddling when he was 2 weeks old or so although I wish I continued for better sleep routine's sake. I will know for next baby! I've tried swaddling him again the past several days but haven't really seen much difference. I'm only swaddling him for naps now, with both arms out.

Is it still restorative even though he opened his eyes 3-4 times in 1.5h nap? If he barely slept leading to 7am, should we stick to the activity time even though he's clearly tired? I'm guessing yes. I'm looking forward to any pointers you may have to help us. Thank you so much in advance.

Offline ZanesOTmom

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2017, 19:28:27 pm »
I've been doing lots of reading on the site. DS had only been sleeping 12-14 hours per DAY. Is this not normal?? The most I got him to sleep as a newborn was 16 hours I believe. :( ughhhh

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2017, 06:43:59 am »
Hello, welcome to BW forums :)

Sounds like you've made a lot of changes and it's great you have LO going into his cot now.  All the changes are bound to disturb his sleep for a little while as he adjusts to the new routine and new place to sleep.

It looks like you are doing really well even though you still need to shush/pat through the naps.  Sleep training takes a while and is a gradual process.  As he learns to fall to sleep with less help he will also be more able to stay asleep with less help.  I would continue as you are for now, helping as needed with his transitions.

Try not to worry too much about the guidance sleep times by age - it is only guidance. I can remember looking at those times myself, many times, wondering how I was going to make my DS sleep that amount of time.  Some LOs just don't.

As your LO was lower birth weight you might need to stay with a 3hr E routine beyond 4 months, watch his cues, I see some of his E times are around 3hr 15 at the moment and that's fine if he is asleep or happy, just don't feel you have to force him to shift to 4hrly E at 4 months if he is not ready - again not all LOs can manage this.

Is the mixed feeding due to the lower birth weight or another reason?  Are you happy with the mixed feeding?


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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 15:44:02 pm »
Thanks so much for he response. The mixed feeding is actually for selfish reasons. I don't have much milk so I've been topping up lots.

I think LO can go for longer between E but I read that I should follow the transition from 3-hr to 4-he EASY on the dot... should I just forget it and go by DS's cues?

Also, last night was an even worse night. 5 NWs and an EW :'(. I was kinda expecting this cos of his OT by missing his CN and long A time prior to BT but I feel like it's getting worse. :(

E 7am (A1.35)
S 8:35 (1h17m) and no interventions! (Yay)

E 1016 (A 1.29)
S 11:43 (25+10+37m) - slept right away but had 2 other

E 1324 (A 1.43)
S 1507 (43m total :()

E 1604 (A 3h!!!!)
WD 1735 he was nodding off, really sleepy but refused to be put down. So we skipped CN :(

E 1806
WD then CF 1850h
S 1902 (2h38m) then 5 more wakings and each time it's hard to put him back to sleep 10m-1h sh/pat; fed on 2 of 5 wakings.
EW 0610

S 0650h today


Should I remove the CN altogether? I feel like I can longer in between feeds but really trying my best to follow the transition schedule. Also, I don't know why I'm getting so many NW. Any insights would be much appreciated as I get anxiety when BT approaches now.

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2017, 08:40:57 am »
Being OT at BT can certainly add to the number of NWs and cause an EW too.  it looks like he went back to sleep at 6.50am though so that's good.

To drop the CN you really need to be closer to the 2hr A time and have the longer naps of 1.5-2hrs to get through the day, otherwise you will end up with a lot of extra time at the end of the day meaning either a long A time before BT or a very EBT (early bed time).  Looking at your times from yesterday, without the CN BT would ned to be at about 5.30pm, many people don't like to try BT that early although for some it pays off and LO sleeps well.
If you are considering dropping the CN I would suggest you really push those A times to 2hrs.

The mixed feeding is actually for selfish reasons. I don't have much milk so I've been topping up lots.
Would you like some BF support to help you increase your supply?  Mixed feeding can be a bit of a vicious cycle as the formula top ups mean your body is not getting the signal to produce more for baby's needs.  Your milk supply can drop as a result.


Offline ZanesOTmom

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2017, 13:38:20 pm »
Hi there. Thanks for the response. I've made some changes, thanks to your suggestions. :) we are now following the 3.75h EASY, transitioning to 4-hour. I just realized I've been counting A time from E and not from eyes open to eyes closed. DS had been having 1.75-2h A time after all. We're working on consistency and hopefully I can post some progress soon.

I just have few questions:

For EW, wouldn't that affect his A time and end up OT? I realize I still need to follow his routine so as not to reinforce EWs. Wouldn't his OT affect our day/night? Just wondering if I need to make changes when this happens.

DS had been waking up for feeds twice after CF. our pedia said he no longer requires feeding at night. But I realized that the NWs were from hunger (so stupid for me not to realize this sooner). Would he eventually let me know if these feeding need to be dropped or will I have to wean him off them?

Dream feeds - he wakes up at 10-1030pm and therefore becomes a NF instead. There had been nights where he didn't wake up but he won't suck on the bottle when I tried DF! He would wake up half an hour later for a NF. :-/ How are you able to give the bottle? Do you lift him up from the cot/crib to feed?

Wts - he wakes up at 28-45min mark and I've been trying WTS option 1. It has only worked once so far but I'm willing to continue. My question is, after I sh/pat and he goes back to sleep, can I do wts again on the second part of his nap?

I would really love for him to start sttn. I'm dedicating 2 weeks to staying home and helping him with sleep training. Really hoping all this would work. :(

About BF, I've seen at least 4 LCs and was on domperidone and herbs in the first two months. I'm happy with where we're at, but thank you for the offer of supports. :)
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 14:14:08 pm by ZanesOTmom »

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2017, 18:10:04 pm »
For EW, wouldn't that affect his A time and end up OT? I realize I still need to follow his routine so as not to reinforce EWs. Wouldn't his OT affect our day/night? Just wondering if I need to make changes when this happens.
If there is an EW but you eventually get him back off to sleep I'd just count WU as the last time he wakes up and do a full A time from there. yes there can be a little OT if LOs wake a lot earlier than they should but usually you need to get the nap at a reasonable time so that you do not encourage the EW to continue.  Lots of OT can effect day and night sleep but OT also helps to get into a suitable routine too so try not to be overly worried about it - often when we worry too much about OT we can end up perpetuating the trickier parts of the routine such as EW or UT naps which are equally as unhelpful.

DS had been waking up for feeds twice after CF. our pedia said he no longer requires feeding at night. But I realized that the NWs were from hunger (so stupid for me not to realize this sooner). Would he eventually let me know if these feeding need to be dropped or will I have to wean him off them?
Sorry but I am sure your LO is only 4 months, I do not know of any LO who does not need a feed at night at this age.
NFs for formula fed babies often drop earlier than BF babies (not always) but even formula fed babies you'd expect to have a NF or a DF (or even both) until 8 months. Yes some LOs might independently just stop waking for a night feed younger than this and if they are eating well in the day and gaining weight there would be no reason to worry but on the whole you would be looking at night feeds for several months yet.
Once solids are well established you might see LO less interested in either night or day feeds, this would be an indicator that night feeds can be weaned. We can give you support with this when the time comes.  Sometimes LOs do not reduce any of their milk feeds and might need some encouragement to reduce the night feeds and take in more calories during the day instead. Certainly if NFs were continuing beyond 8 months but solids were not being taken or good milk feeds weren't taken in the day then I'd probably suggest looking at weaning NFs to move calorie intake to day time.  But not at 4 months, more like 8 -12 months.

Back shortly to answer your other questions :)


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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2017, 18:47:36 pm »
Dream feeds - he wakes up at 10-1030pm and therefore becomes a NF instead. There had been nights where he didn't wake up but he won't suck on the bottle when I tried DF! He would wake up half an hour later for a NF. :-/ How are you able to give the bottle? Do you lift him up from the cot/crib to feed?
There's some info here about how to give the DF
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=54662.msg382717#msg382717
You might try 15-30 mins earlier or later than you've been doing to see if you catch him in a different part of the sleep cycle when he is more willing to take the feed.  or he could be like mine and just refuse to have anything put in his mouth. Mine always had a feed at around10-10.30 and always awake for it.

Wts - he wakes up at 28-45min mark and I've been trying WTS option 1. It has only worked once so far but I'm willing to continue. My question is, after I sh/pat and he goes back to sleep, can I do wts again on the second part of his nap?
Yes you can use it several times in one nap if needed.

hope this helps :)


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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2017, 21:23:06 pm »
Thank you so much. Hoping to report back soon with a success story! 🙏🏽

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2017, 21:48:12 pm »
One more thing, about feeds. He takes 4-5oz per feed and now that we're feeding every 4 hours, his intake is less, moving from every 3-3.5hrs. No matter how much we push, he won't finish his 6oz bottle. :( it's a bad idea to feed before naps, is it? I noticed he didn't gain much weight the past 2 weeks but his doc isn't concerned as he's still gained from the previous month...

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2017, 14:07:19 pm »
I'm happy to report things have much improved. We've been on 4-hour easy, textbook but I have some questions:

EW could be 0600 to 0645 (I leave him to his crib although sometimes he starts to cry)
E 0700 - so hard to feed him, will take up to an hour when bottle had expired (A 2h not counting from EW)
S 0900 (am naps have improved and sometimes he does not wake for at lease 1.5h; sh/pat back to sleep always until 11am)

E 11-1130 (feedings had been hard lately and I need to push him to eat :()
A until S
S 1300 (always 30m+10m+1h - rocking/shpat but always put to crib drowsy)

E 1500
A until S
CN 1700 (30min)

(E removed as he won't eat)
A until bath at 1815-1830, story, prayers
E 1830-1845
Crib by 1915-1930 but he won't sleep until 8pm the earliest.

DF 2230-2300

He wakes around 2:30am and then 4:30am. I was feeding him both times because his intake had dropped. But I realize I need to drop one of the NF as both wakings, he coos and talks, not really upset but he would eat if fed. Also, I'm hoping it'll make him more hungry for 0700 feed. Not sure if this is a good idea though considering his daily intake...

Also, to address the EW and pm nap, should I extend his A time to slightly more than 2h? He's almost 4.5mos. Would this possibly help the NW, EW and pm nap? Thanks so much.

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2017, 15:09:56 pm »
I think I'd probably drop one of the NFs if he seems relatively happy. A LO who is hungry will let you know it, even if you manage to resettle without a feed they will wake again 10-20 min later again crying for food so if this happens then you need to feed but otherwise I think the DF plus one NF is likely okay and the milk intake in the day should be a bit easier.
When he wakes in the morning and from nap you could try not feeding for say 30 mins, some LOs don't like to eat right away.  This way the feed might be taken more readily and your formula won't expire.

You could try a little  more than 2hrs A time, yes. Some LOs do go over the guidance times. Maybe try 2hr 10 or 2hr 15 and see how it goes.
I would perhaps hold off on the BT routine a little longer too if he is taking 45 min or more to go to sleep.  How about start later with the aim of being asleep at 8pm but with less resistance?

Glad to hear things have improved for you :)


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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2017, 11:24:05 am »
HI there. Thanks so much for all the supports.
With regards to your suggestion of pushing bedtime to later, say 8pm, did you mean to start the day later too? DS woke up at 8am when I read your response so I thought, perfect! We can move the whole day. And we've been following that since with A time pushed for 5-10mins whenever I'm able to. However, he had always been awake between 6-7am. As soon as I stop shpatting, he's wakes up and wide awake again. We do this til it's 8am WU, or close to at least. Bedtime routine starts 6:45-7:15pm. He's in bed by 8pm. Problem is, he doesn't sleep til 9pm now! 😳

Should I go back to 7am WU as that's his usual WU time? But how do I do EASY so he goes to bed later? I've been following the 4-hour EASY...  ???

Other than the early waking and late bedtime, he's been consistently waking up for 2 feeds at night. He still needs help transitioning during naps but overall, I'm very happy of his routine, and I think so is the LO. :) thanks again.

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2017, 17:52:06 pm »
No I did not mean for the morning WU to move to 8am.  As you are trying now to move it to 8am I think you are seeing BT resistance until 9pm.  Really all that has happened is you moved the whole day rather than reduce the expected night length.
Not all LOs can do a full 12 hr night. Some can but even so they sometimes need more or less depending if their routine is changing.  Others can do 11hr night or even 10.5 hr night and trying to get more is pretty much a waste of energy.

I would just get him up at 7am.  If he wakes a bit earlier than 7am and you want to keep him in bed until 7am that's fine, support him, but I wouldn't be spending an entire hour trying to shush/pat back to sleep when it is a relatively reasonable WU time.  if you are spending an hour every day then the routine probably needs changing.

9pm BT however I consider too late.  Previously you were putting down at 7.15pm and he was taking 45+ min to go to sleep.  personally I find that too long really - what I mean is it would drive me a little bit nuts. Sometimes LOs resist BT because they are not sleepy enough so starting a bit later means they take less time to go to sleep, the idea was not to prolong BT to but reduce the overall time spent getting him to sleep.  it looks like now you have 2hrs of BT - you must have the patience of a saint!

Could you post your recent EAS times please showing how long it takes to settle for naps, what times he wakes mid nap etc.  Are you using W2S at every nap?  Have you tried holding off for a day to see what happens?


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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2017, 14:40:12 pm »
I'm sorry I haven't been responsive. It's been hectic the last 2 weeks and he'll the last few days. We moved houses this week and the week prior, DS, DH and I had the cold while busy packing. It's been horrendous. The good news is that, since we moved, DS has dropped 1 NF. The only thing consistent the past week is our WU time and first nap even though the EW is still there (5:30-6:15).

WU 0700
E 0730 (A 2-2.15)
S 0900-0915 (30m + 1-1.30) - WTS is still being done and it's hit and miss. Successful ~30% of the time

E 11-1130 (A 2-2.15)
S 13-1330 (1.30 - 2h total) shushpat still after WTS

E ~1530h (A ~2-2.15)
CN 1700-1730h  depending time he woke up from nap, as per cues

Feed after he wakes from CN
Bath time and story an hour after he wakes from CN
CF before BT, bed by 1945. He doesn't sleep til 8-8:15pm
NF between 0130-0330h.


Now the above has been the ideal. Between the new environment, cough and congestion, things would change i the afternoon/evening and i follow his lead mostly. The past 2 days had been a nightmare. Yesterday, he got his meningitis (optional) shot AND learned how to roll over at night! I would shpat him to sleep but once I stop, he would roll over then cry. Repeat until I got fed up at about midnight. I APOP'd and let him sleep with me in bed. He woke up cranky and would not go back to sleep. Everytime I dropped him he would cry. Or roll then cry. I gave him acetaminophen as he seems a bit warm perhaps from the shot, he slept in the arms on the sofa. We both got maybe 4 hours of sleep in total. He's currently on his am nap and he woke at 30min Mark as usual - WTS didn't work. Took a while to get him back to sleep but at least he's napping and not trying to roll over.

I'm going out of my mind. It feels like we've made a leap but took several steps backwards. I'm hoping it's the new environment and he will adjust very soon. Also, I really hope he was cranky and kept rolling over last night because of the shot and this won't be a nightly occurrence now that he's learned to roll over. Please tell me it won't be. I am going out of my mind. The house is a mess, I'm tired and lacking sleep, feeling stressed that DH is doing everything in the house... I don't know anymore. 😫

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2017, 07:50:44 am »
Also, his intake has dropped again. Would it be better to do 3.5h EASY? But now that his A time is 2-2.15, how would it work? He's almost 16lbs and would eat 26-27oz in 24hrs, down from >30. The reason I ask is, he's up to 2 NFS again tonight- woke up with wet sheets at 0330h but won't stop crying after I changed him. Settled after I fed him plus I gave him a dream feed. This is a setback from 1 NF (no dF) :( although I'm also thinking, it may also be due to not enough calories in the day. When he was down to 1 NF, his intake during the day was much better.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 08:32:44 am by ZanesOTmom »

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2017, 19:24:22 pm »
Just an update, DS is now wearing a sleepsack and it's working well. He's now sleeping wel at night, down to 1 NF and usually a NW/EW. Problem now is his naps... this is what's been going on the past few days. I stopped WTS in gen weekend and he woke after 30mins still. Restarted again and would WTS starting at 26/27min mark until 50-55min Mark unless he wakes first.

Aug 28th
0330 NF
WU 0700
E 0730h (formula plus solid restarted after stopping for a month. Suggested by pedia to start at 4mos but formula intake dropped)
A 2.12
S 0912 (34mins woke up unable to transition, WTS op1 for 2w now. Started at 26min mark. Shpatted and slept for 8mins. As soon as I leave the room, he wakes. Slept again for 11mins after shpat. The wakes. Slept again for 28m, woke at 1056h)

E 1104h (formula)
A 2.30
S 1327h (slept for 36m then again, kept waking up after 5-7mins until gave up at 1445h)

E 1447h
A 2.04
S 1651h for 34mins

E 1730
Bath, bedtime routine 1845
Top up then crib at 1940. Asleep by 2008h for 6 hours (yay!)

0240h NF then easily goes back to sleep
0545 NW, shpat
0635h babbling in crib, picked up at 0650h

E 0715h (formula plus solid)
A 2.06
S 0856h (37min, shpatted then slept for 13m, shpatted again then slept for 44m)

E 1115h
A 2.27
S 1319h (1h16m!!! Shpatted and slept for 4m. Wakes after I leave room. Shpatted then slept for 20m)

E 1517h
A 2.27
S 1740h for 28m

E 1650h
Bath, bedtime routine at 1900h
Top up then crib by 2000h. Asleep by 2030h for 6.5h(!!!)

0300h NF
EW at 0610, won't go back to sleep. Played with daddy at 0645 when starting to whine. Up by 0657.

E 0715 (formula plus solid)
A 2.27 (weird it's always this long)
S 0924h for 40m then slept again for 7m after shpat; shpat again then slept 48mins

E 1115h
A 2.15
S 1326h for 26mins (didn't get a chance to do WTS; Shpatted, slept for 6mins. Shpatted then slept for 32mins.

Do I just accept the fact that he won't be able to connect sleep cycles and just deal with the short naps because night sleep is good? Is he still UT even though I've been extending A time to almost 2.5h?? Is he OT?? Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thank you

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2017, 03:01:31 am »
Just stopping by quickly... I did not get a chance to read through all the hx. Is your LO 5 months now?
How long have you been battling the short nap?

When we were going through the 4 month regression I remember feeling like I had to increase AT every few days.

Current AT 2:30?

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2017, 03:46:06 am »
Hi. Yes he's 5 months today. He's always had short naps. He's only slept 1.5-2h a handful of times in a month. But the fragmented naps is new - less than a week. I thought I needed to extend A time to get longer naps but now I'm wondering if I'm actually overtiring him...

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2017, 10:31:44 am »
I can't say definitively if he is being OT. But a UT/OT loop is VERY common at this stage!

But my experience at this stage/age was the feeling of taking 2 steps back. Witch lasted ~2 weeks (felt like years) then we started to see small improvements. But it did come down to AT increase in the end.

How long are you sticking with each AT increase before progressing?


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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2017, 11:26:44 am »
Oh boy. I just pushed him to see how long he can last.... I guess I am making him OT by pushing too much too soon aren't I? So from 2.05-2.15, we jumped to 2.30 A time. Also, last night he woke up at 2330h whining (put back to sleep within 5mins) and he hasn't done this in a long time.... :(

Add-on: I looked back and even with 2.15-2.20 A time (i follow cues), he had fragmented naps. But it just became daily the past few days. And it's always been around 30mins and now as short as 25mins. Not sure if these tell you anything...

Thanks so much for responding.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 11:35:01 am by ZanesOTmom »

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2017, 12:12:15 pm »
It is possible you may have pushed quickly, but it is so hard to tell sometimes. How many days have you been doing the 2:30?

Only a few days of consistency in AT will give you an idea.

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2017, 14:15:12 pm »
I looked back the past week and I've been playing around 2.10-2.25 AT the past 5 days. Prior to that it was 2-2.15. I don't see a pattern when he gets over an hour nap and when it's only 30mins and when it is less than 30mins. So confusing!!! :( It does seem though he needs longer AT in the afternoon and evening.

He was awake at 0630h today but left in crib until 0645h. He started complaining at 1.50 AT but we didn't do WD until 2.10. He slept right away but woke up at 30-min mark. I didn't do wts today to see what would happen after doing it for 3 days. Patted him for 10mins and he's been asleep for 36mins now and counting. Fingers crossed!!! I'll take 45min any day!

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2017, 17:27:18 pm »
Try to stick to same AT for 3 days (AM and PM can be different, but same for a few days) may be easier to find a pattern.

I feel your pain. Right now my LO is dropping 2nd nap, cutting teeth and starting to walk eeek. Sometimes it is very hard to nail down cause and effect :(

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2017, 23:54:11 pm »
I will do that. Thank you so much!
Oh my goodness. I hope you get some rest and some sleep  :(

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2017, 12:21:14 pm »
Hi there - sorry I haven't stopped by for a while, I've been away from BW with a bad back.  Trying to catch up a little now.

I see LaraAndrea has been supporting you wonderfully :)  Thanks xx


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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2017, 01:00:11 am »
Oh no, no worries Creations. I hope you're doing much better!!! So good to see you back. You've been so helpful to a lot of us here.

I really needed a change to our routine and so I've been reading other threads and came across Jessmum suggesting perhaps counting A time from awake time even with EW then longer A time for the rest of the day. It's day 2 of doing so and I'm happy to report that DS's naps are much better. He started responding to WTS again finally! He's been napping for just under 1.5hrs 2 days in a row. Looks like AT is 2-2.10 (starting from the time he wakes, not when we pick him up) and 2.20-2.25 for the rest of the day. EW hasn't changed - still around 0630h. And he still sleeps around 8pm. Total night sleep time is 10-10.5hrs. I guess that's how he really is...

Fingers crossed the past 2 days are not a sham and will continue on. Still hopeful he will be able to transition between naps one day. My backs killing me leaning on the crib to shpat for 30mins every nap 😫

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2017, 17:48:06 pm »
That's a great update :)

I would try the W2S for a few days and then see if he'll go on his own, if not then resettle as best you can and start the W2S again next day, but the idea is to do about 3 days then let him try on his own otherwise you never know if he's at the point he can do it without you.
Good luck!


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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2017, 14:39:12 pm »
I got a problem. It's been gone until yesterday. He woke up at 0040h for feed, went back to sleep with no issues. Then he was up at 0510, shpatted but only slept til 0600. He's been awake and just kicking away in his crib until he started whining eventually, picked up at 0640. I think maybe I put him to bed too late. 1st nap at 0848h for 40mins with WTS. Then shpat won't work, I had to APOP until he fell asleep on my arms at 1015h, slept for 50mins until 1106h, unable to put back to sleep. He would fuss in crib until picked up which is unusual so I figured he's OT. He was on activity center when not fed formula and solids for A time prior to first nap.
Then E 1109h. We were out for errands for AT. Then activity center while I quickly ate lunch. He was in bed after 2.20 AT. Took a while for him to fall asleep and only napped for 30mins with WTS. Rocked plus shpat and he slept for 11mins. Rock and shpat didn't work so had to APOP and he slept for 41mins. Again, won't go back to sleep.
E 1505h
AT 2.25h (WD as soon as tired cues) with low key activity.
CN 1725h
E 1805h
Bath and bedtime routine started at 1850h
TU 1915h then crib. Took almost an hour for him to fall asleep when usually it's less than1"mins with minimal intervention. Slept from 2022-2316h. Left in crib as he kicked then escalated to whine and crying. Shpatted and rocked, slept from 2323-0011h only!!! Gave him NF then fell asleep right away. He woke up again after 4hrs and I couldn't resettle. So gave him another NF as a desperate move. He fussed in crib and wouldn't sleep. I finally APOPd again as it was already 0525 :( he slept on and off in my arms until woken up at0705h today.

He took his first nap at 0858h today but woke up after 32min even with WTS starting at 26-min mark. He was wide awake for 15mins until finally slept with shpat but woke again after 8mins. He won't settle so I resorted to APOP again. He's been in my arms asleep for 40+mins now.

My plan today is to put him to bed as soon as I see tired sign, as early as 2h AT. Am I correct to say he's very OT and need to address that even if I need to APOP before we can work on going back to routine again? Please tell me if I'm wrong. I just want to go back to routine again with WTS working, EW and all. :(

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2017, 18:01:56 pm »
I think he is approaching something like 5.5months now is that right?  Could be time for him to extend the A time and drop the CN.  Sometimes nap drops are messy and take a bit of sorting out.
Here's a link to the 3-2 info:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=246541.0
Have a read and see what you think - ring any bells?
During the transition from 3 naps to 2 LO can need longer A times but not able to take an A long enough to move directly to 2 naps and still have a 7pm ish BT. During that phase you might find it better to keep the CN and allow BT to move later (he's already pushing it to 8pm or later), you might also reduce the length of the CN to try to keep a reasonable BT and finally drop the CN but then bring BT much earlier after just 2 naps in the day.

Whilst he might be showing signs of OT it can be caused by the A time being too short.  As pp said 2hr 30 is about right at this point (or longer if moving to 2 naps a bit early).


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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2017, 18:14:20 pm »
Oh god. Whilst it's exciting cos LO is getting older, I'm scared of NWs possibly continuing due to OT. Very scared. We are at 2.20ish AT right now after the am WU. I'll try to extend it. Oh god please help me. Really hoping for a positive outcome very soon.  :-[

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2017, 00:14:46 am »
I'm so tired I can't see straight. He's had so many night wakings and then naps are so short, I'm lucky to squeeze in a shower and brush my teeth daily. Would love to throw the towel this time... it's been close to two months we've been sleep traininga nd it feels like I'm still failing at this. Sorry. I'm so lacking sleep I feel dizzy.  :'(

Yes, looks like it's time for 3-2 transition. Absolutely ring a bell, all of them. I just don't know how to extend AT bit at a time if our A time varies. AM AT we're: 2.08, 1.53 and today 2.39. He used to sleep within 5mins and now, it's a guessing game. I wait for sleep cues and try to extend it from there but it just won't stay the same. Could be because his wake time varies and sometimes he's able to go back for a quick nap til WU but sometimes not, so the level of morning tiredness differs Day to day. Today, his AT were significantly higher than the previous days, although no change in nap lengths, only becoming harder to put him to sleep. But this resulted into the day getting long. We're already at 13-13.5hr days roughly (6:30-7 WU and 8pm shut eye). I followed your advice, Creations, and capped CN (seems so mean of me but I'll keep at it and paying to see the light at the end of the tunnel soon) to 18mins to preserve BT of 8pm-ish. Do I keep doing this until morning A time is close to or at 3h? I'll do my best to stick around the same AT.

I think LO is low sleep needs. His sleep range is 11.5-14hrs. Rarely has it been more than 14hrs in 24hrs in the past 2 months. If he is LSN, does that change anything? Would it make sense that he chronically has 30min naps? It feels like this will never change and that it's his norm...  :(

Does anyone here do crib only during the day and cosleep at night? It'll be easier to deal with the NW if he's beside me, on a cot. If I haven't invested so much energy and time and effort and resources sleep training him the past 2 months, I would've said to heck with it today. Just close to the end of my rope... I'm sorry.

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2017, 18:06:26 pm »
Sorry to hear you are so run down by this. Nap transition phases can be very frustrating and very tiring.
A couple of options I can think of:
1. To increase A times gradually, but firmly, write down what your A time goal is and stick with it, ignoring sleepy cues, and continue the capped CN until A times reach close enough to 3hrs to be able to drop the CN
OR
2. Go directly now to a 2 nap day with set nap times.  This is often hard for a few days, LO can become OT in the shorter term, but the bonus is that usually LO also gets into the new routine much faster so instead of A time increases dragging out for weeks you both have a bit of a rougher time but for a shorter time frame.  This second option is often helpful for people who are at the end of their tether which is why I mention it.  I might otherwise have suggested plodding on for another 2 weeks to get closer to 6 months but this route has worked very well with LOs of 5.5 months too. The other benefit for you is that there is not guessing of sleep times it's just set.  Tracy used this method for putting LOs onto a routine - it can seem quite dramatic but it gets results.

Based on the times you have given for WU the day would look like this:
WU 6.30
A 3hr
S 9.30 - 11.00 (you can let him sleep up to 11.30 if he wants to)
A 3hr
S 2.00 - 3.30 (or 2.30 to 4.00 if first nap was 2hrs) (this nap might be 2.00 - 4.00 for a 2hr nap)
A 3hrs
BT 6.30pm if both naps were 1.5hrs.  7pm if one nap was 2hrs

LOs seem to have a natural nap length of either 1.5hrs (2 sleep cycles of 45 mins) or 2hrs (3 cycles of 40 min) so the routine depends a little on that although actually you can fully set this routine if you find that easier.

If he is LSN, does that change anything?
LSN can mean shorter nights and can mean ability to do very long A times (so don't worry so much about increasing). Generally if a LO can't do 12hr night but more like 10.5 or 11hrs we look at the day routine to allow for that and just don't expect 12hrs.
LOs can sometimes appear LSN and end up pretty average or even high sleep than others...just to confuse things.  As example mine did huge A times in the morning but very short at the end of the day, always 10.5/11hr night never longer, so appeared LSN. However he held on to his nap for longer than many LSN toddlers and at 4yo, 5yo and now at 6yo is sleeping longer nights than most of his age peers.

I'll let you have a think about those options.


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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2017, 15:48:52 pm »
Thanks so much for all the support.

Would it be possible that some LOs have shorter sleep cycles? Even with extended AT DS opens his eyes after 30mins. With or without WTS. If I am able to extend it (which is rare), he would wake after 1hr6-10mins. Or, after 30mins, he wakes then sleep for 6-9mins then wake up again. Then sleep for another 30mins. Not sure if this is normal. I can't remember the last time he slept for 1.5hrs or more, without help. Do some LOs never learn to connect sleep cycles?

I was able to extend am AT to 2.50 today so that's great. What can i expect to happen at bedtime  if LO is OT?

Oh and when we go for walks, he would catnap for 15mins or less. Would this disrupt his sleep during actual nap times? Should I be extending AT even more when this happens? Should I stop him from catnapping at all cost? Thanks again.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 17:07:12 pm by ZanesOTmom »

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2017, 18:00:36 pm »
Would it be possible that some LOs have shorter sleep cycles?
It is possible yes in my opinion.  I've seen threads in the past where we've come to the conclusion LO has a 30 min cycle - mostly it seems to be when OT is assumed but LO is UT.  Often 30 mins is expected to be an OT nap but obviously with a 30 min cycle (or even for some with longer cycles would you believe) it can be UT.

What can i expect to happen at bedtime  if LO is OT?
Depends how much OT.  in some cases it can be that Lo actually goes down easier and faster, in others LO screams blue murder and won't go down, in some LO goes to sleep relatively ok (or not) and then continues to wake many times before midnight.
A very early waking the following morning can also be due to OT.
I will say though that often members of the community fear OT but fail to see that UT can bring just as many (if not more) problems.  It is a good idea to try to keep both in mind and not assume a restless or crying baby is automatically OT.

he would catnap for 15mins or less. Would this disrupt his sleep during actual nap times?
I'm afraid so, yes, it doesn't bother some LOs but some will then act like they had a full nap and refuse to go down for the right nap time and end up very OT as a result.

If the options above don't sound like your thing or you don't feel ready for those options, you could accept lots of CNs for now and deal with things at a later date. Some people prefer to do that.  We are still here whenever you decide it's time.


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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2017, 18:54:12 pm »
I've decided to go with the 3-2 transition and do it slowly. DH took over the very early morning NW over the weekend and I feel refreshed. We've had success extending AT, especially morning. It just gets messed up by not being able to extend naps (I try to keep him in bed for at least an hour, most times able to get 2x30min naps.

I've been APOPing his EWs to extend his sleep to 6:45-7am and so I can get some rest too. This helps with keeping the AT more consistent on a daily basis. His morning is now 2.45-2.50, then 2.35-2.45 on midday and pm AT. CN is being capped and he ends up sleeping quickly after ~1.5 AT. We get into trouble when he naps in between supposed sleep time :( like now. He woke at 11am and we went for a walk at 1230h cos he was getting bored. He ended up falling asleep at 1252-1312h. It's now 1450h and he is nowhere close to sleepy. I just fed him then we'll play for a bit. We might have to do early BT for the first time tonight.

I'm learning a lot. Thanks so much.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 19:00:29 pm by ZanesOTmom »

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Re: FTM and would like some sleep
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2017, 13:53:32 pm »
You are welcome