3 month old and 30/45 min naps..

[Mommyadel]

This issue has emerged these last few weeks with the 30/45 min cat naps. 30 mins means he was over tired and 45 could mean under tired or needs more activity time correct? Yesterday he cat napped all day expect at 2pm he slept til 3:30pm.... I've trying going in as soon as he wakes to put the soother in but he just won't settle. I know his activity time
From the time he wakes to the time he sleeps should be 1:20 to 1:30... sometimes he doesn't start to yawn until 1:30 mark... so I'm not sure if he tired enough? Or maybe I am waiting tooo long to put him down. If I try to early he fights the swaddle to get out and focuses more on that than sleeping and gets frustrated with it. I'm really at a loss at what to do I know I have to play with the activity time to find the right number as he has trouble transitioning to the next sleep cycle. I tried the sushi pat when he was really young with lots of success but not I'm not sure what to do. He can fall asleep on his own and sometimes I can just lay him in the crib and he drifts off to sleep. I do the same 4/5 s for each nap. I suppose I can't complain as his night slee is awesome. He settles at 7/8pm do at 10 wakes for feed at 3/4... eats again around 7 and will either sleep til 8/9 or wakes for the day at that feed.

Any suggestions? I had the same problem with my daughter but managed to find the sweet spot with naps and she started sleeping 1:30/2hr naps.

[creations]

I'm guessing from what you've said that he is UT and needs a little more A time, maybe aim for more like 1hr 30 - 1hr 45  and see how it goes for a few days?

Did you try the W2S I linked for you on your previous thread?

[Mommyadel]

I sure did try the w2s yesterday and had great success ... one nap was 1:30 and the other was 1:40... so I am very happy with that. Will try to extend the wake time a bit more and see how we fare out! So glad you mentioned the w2s as I forgot about that technique! Thank you so much for your support!

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Oh that's great you had success yesterday - keep trying for a few days if you can and then see how LO goes without it.  Sometimes takes a few cycles to have a long lasting result.

[Mommyadel]

Well he is at it again only taking 30/45 min naps. Now I'm running into feed time/ nap time at the same time. So it's resulting in a feed to sleep prop because that's all I can do. But I wonder if maybe I should hold off on feeding him as he only has 2 maybe 3 oz a feed and doesn't seem very hungry for it after the 3 he mark.( formula fed) do you think I should go on with the feed or wait til he wakes from his nap?
He went to bed at 7:30pm
Woke/ feed at 6:50( he likes to cluster feed in the evening he usually has a huge bottle probably 8/9oz after all is said and done)
Woke/feed at 7:15
DF at 10:15 (5oz)
Woke at 2:45... gave him soother until 4 and fed him 3 oz
Woke at 6:24
Fed at 7 1.5 oz
Sleep at 7:50
Woke at 8:35

[creations]

How long is he awake between naps in the day now?

Also here is a link which shows a 3.5hr EASY sample. Maybe have a look and see if you think it will suit your LO now that you are saying E is getting too close to S.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0

[Mommyadel]

That's too bad as I missed his growth spurt! He just had it about 2 weeks ago. I will try the 3.5 hr easy and see where it goes. His morning nap he is always tired much earlier... but he only sleeps 30mins so I don't have much to loose at this point!
He is also still swaddles. I have been leaving him unswaddled at nap time
Until he falls asleep on his own and thengoing in and swaddling ( easy to get back to sleep when waking at 30 min mark) and also swaddling him at night time for bed and then  un swaddled at df and laying him on his tummy for night sleep. He wakes around 3/4 for feed and will leave him unswaddled until either his ready for the day or he is fussy at night to get him to go back to sleep. Thoughts? Or do u think I should just stop altogether and since he is only napping 30 mins now and I would be dealing with the same issues in a few weeks time when I unswaddled him completely. How do u tell when the moro reflex is gone? My lo is so strong and just yesterday I caught
Him scooting his legs under his bum and. Took one little crawl. He does still really love the swaddle, he does fight it at the 30 min mark if I can't resettle. I do try to do only one change at a time and not all at once.. so for example.. I am going to start to transitioning him to a 3.5 hr easy, I can't seem to think clearly as to what I should do as the whole 30 min thing is a bit fustrating... do u think I should wait to unswaddle or just do it now?

[creations]

I don't think I'm the best to advise on swaddling as I only swaddled until 10 wks and only for day naps where my LO was supervised because he took day naps in the family room where I could see him. I never swaddled at night and at 10wks he wanted to sleep in his night bed for naps not in the family room so I just didn't swaddle.  I was too sacred of the SIDS risk, which also meant I wouldn't let him sleep on his tummy.  Perhaps you'd like to start a new thread with this question to get some different experience?

[Mommyadel]

I think I will keep going with swaddling  until I see he has better control of his movements. I only swaddle for day naps and I think until he learns to connect his sleeps cycles will keep going ( hopefully for only a few more days). He sleeps in his crib for naps and night sleep.
He is still waking at the 30 min mark, so I go in and hold him until he passes the 45 min mark and then I lay him back in the crib. I am able to extend his naps to about the 1 hour 30mins by doing so.  I tired the sush pat and holding pressure points does not work. Hopefully I am not creating a prop by holding him for those 15 mins.
I have also moved him to 3.5 hr feeds in which he now finishes his bottles ( thank goodness!) last night he settled at 7, df at 10, woke at 5 for feed and woke for the day at 8am. I suspect now that he is taking more during the day, he will not need the night time feed very soon.

This is how things are now, any other suggestions or do you think I am doing well based on what I explained?

[creations]

If you are holding him for 15 mins during his nap you can expect him to learn this is how naps go and he will continue to wake up and expect to fall back to sleep in arms.  LOs only know what we teacher them.  Really to reach the goal of independent sleep you need to be keeping him in the cot, lifting for comfort if needed but putting him right back in when calm but not asleep. The W2S method means you do not wait until he wakes to begin the soothing process through the transition, LO may or may not fully wake but it generally keeps them calmer through that time and easier to get back to sleep in the cot.

[Mommyadel]

Well it was too good to be true! He does fall asleep on his own when he goes down for a nap. I just place him in the crib and he goes to sleep... it's just at the 30 min mark he always stirrs.. that after the 45 min mark I lay him back in the crib. He slept today for 1 hr 40 mins. I will keep trying.
I have been going in at the 20 min mark, just enough so he stirrs.

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I suggest the W2S method where you help him right through the transition from before he stirs/wakes up to deep sleep rather than the other method for older LOs where you disturb them slightly. W2S caps option 1.  Personally I wouldn't use the method where he stirs a little, I would see him right through.

[Mommyadel]

Well that certainly was very frustrating and perhaps I did it wrong. Went in at the 30 min mark, gently rolled to side to get to his back and starting gentle patting. Eyes opened after 30 secs, opened closed for awhile ( no crying so I just patted and no sushing) kept going till body relaxed about 10 mins. Slowly stopped and watched, more wiggly and burrowing head into mattress and a few crys. Continued to pat, eyes open and closing , now closed kept patting for a few more
Mins and then eyes snapped back open and tried to burrow head into mattress. By this time it's not at the 1 hr 10 min mark. I picked him up patted his back a few times and gave a little rock and put him back in the crib. He slept 1 hr 45. I must be doing something wrong. Perhaps the sush pat is not for him, I did it quite a bit when he was really small. He responds better to the pat than the sush unless he is crying in which case he does.  I'm not sure what to do at this point, feeling a bit lost now 

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Perhaps try not rolling him onto his side. You can pat on the nappy areas, say the hip area (not tummy) and still create the same reassuring feeling. Or a firm hand with a little jiggle or rock in the cot.  It sounds like you picked him up when he was not crying but rather because he was not asleep - the method of sleep training means you don't pick up unless LO really needs it because he is crying.  By picking him up mid nap to get him back to sleep you are reinforcing the prop that already exists and prolonging the whole process.  He will not learn to settle in his cot if you continue picking up mid nap to get him back off.

Sleep training methods are not expected to work immediately, it is a process where you teach LO and LO learns with your support. It can mean some broken and disturbed sleep and some loss of sleep if LO does not resettle but ultimately you will reach your goal and LO will sleep independently through respectful sleep training methods.  It takes time.

[Mommyadel]

Well I am happy to report that the short naps have somewhat curbed a bit. He is now 5 months old and the best nap I get from him is usually in the morning with his nap starting between 9-10 and lasting anywhere from 1:30 to 2hrs, working in his afternoon nap and I can on most days get him down for 1:30hrs between 1:30-2:30 depending on when he woke from his last nap. We do 2 hours of activity time maybe a bit more to 2:15 hrs in the morning only and no more than 2 hrs after each nap.  I try to sneak in a 45 min cat nap around 4/4:30... but that does not always go to plan. Yesterday I tried and from 4:30-5pm he would not take a nap and I had tried everything from shh pat/ going back in to do the 5 s again and he was not having it. So I finally got him done at 6 and he would only sleep for 30mins as he was ot. This seems to be the thing now, trying to find out the happy spot for night time sleep as I have a lot of waking after putting him down. I do I 5 s for sure right now as he needs it more so than ever as compared to before I could do maybe 1-2 mins and he would settle and go to bed. So if his last nap was at say 2:30/3pm or if I can squeak in a cat nap at 4:30/5pm  for 30mins when should I put him down for sleep as I know he is getting it as the day goes on. Last night he went to bed at 6 woke at 6:30... I just kept him up since I knew he would not go back to bed and tried for 7:45... he was awake every 20-30mins thereafter until 10:20pm... I won't be doing that today. I will just leave him in his room and keep him there to try and settle him.

Any suggestions?

[creations]

You might have more luck with the CN if you leave him a bit longer before trying the wind down.  If he is sleeping those two good naps of 1.5 - 2hrs twice he can probably do a full A time before the CN.  Looking at your times I think 4/4.30pm might be too early for the CN (did he wake from his previous nap at maybe 3pm or later so the A time before he CN is running short).
How about try for a CN at more like 5pm?  30 min nap waking at 5.30 (or 5.40 5.45 if he does a full 40/45 min cycle and wakes more naturally then) followed by a full 2hr A time before BT:
WU 7
A 2hr 15
S 9.15 - 11.15
A 2hr 15
S 1.30 - 3.00
A 2hr
CN 5 - 5.30/45
A 2hr
BT 7.30pm

BT can move a touch later, so 7.30 or even up to 8pm to get a CN in.  When the CN is dropped in a month the A times will be longer between naps and the BT will move earlier again.
Also just watch out for UT naps (under tired).  If it is taking longer to get him to sleep it could be he is not quite ready.  Maybe start WD a little later to reduce how much settling you need to do.

So I finally got him done at 6 and he would only sleep for 30mins as he was ot.

Often 30 min naps are OT but just so you know, sometimes they can be UT.  Fighting the CN can be UT and then it's short, although 30 min for a CN is fine really.  It's not always easy to judge if OT or UT but if there were two good naps and then a shortish A time I'd guess UT rather than OT.

Hope this helps

[Mommyadel]

Perfect! That works great! I will try for a later cat nap.. basically if I'm getting 1:30 to 2 hr naps then do a full activity time. What happens on the days where his nap around 2pm is only 30mins. I would typically try to put him down at around 4/4:15 for a cn and then slee at 7/7:30 depending on how he is doing.

[creations]

What happens on the days where his nap around 2pm is only 30mins. I would typically try to put him down at around 4/4:15 for a cn and then slee at 7/7:30 depending on how he is doing.

I would do close to a full A time (so perhaps 2hrs instead of 2hr 15) and then the nap, but you can probably let him nap a bit longer if he will/wants, especially if that second nap starts at more like 1.30pm rather than 2pm. EG:
S 1.30 - 2.00 (CN)
A 2hr
S 4 - 5.30 (full long nap)
A 2hr
BT 7.30

or with 2pm nap eg:
S 2.00 - 2.30 (CN)
A 2hr
S 4.30 - 5.30 (cap)
A 2 hr
BT 7.30

if of course that third nap is also short, well he might be grouchy and you might have to wing it but maybe:
S 1.30 - 2.00
A 2
S 4 - 4.30
A 2hr
BT 6.30
I would cut out or cut down most of the evening activity and just focus feeding and aiming for that BT because for me if somethign like this happened I'd be trying to resettle that third nap for some time and when you finally give up an hour could have passed which means that although the A time is officially 2hrs you are left with just 1 hr to get everything done such as feed, bath/wash, pjs and nappy, teeth, feed again and wind down for bed. it's a lot to fit into a short time so I'd have my fully focused head on to avoid a late BT and OT.

I hope that helps, it doesn't cover all the possibilities of course. Sometimes you just have to do what you can do.

[Mommyadel]

Great! He had a cap nap at 9:30 and then again at 12:30... so I manage to get him nap from 3-4:30pm. So I focused on feeding, and bed time and got him into bed  for 6:30pm here's hoping if for the night!! Thanks for the advice!

[creations]

If you keep getting short naps it could be time fir a little A increase. I'm sure you are on the guidance time now, maybe just try another 5 or 10 mins and see if it helps with the transition otherwise there could be an OT build up if these CNs continue.

[Mommyadel]

First of all, thank you so much for helping me through this tough transition!! I really appreciate all the advice you have given me! Yesterday he had a good morning nap and then CN all day and then when we got home as we were traveling. ( we got him down for 7:30) he was up what seemed every 30 mins poor babes. He was whimpering and I finally had to hold him on my chest and finally got him to settle at 11pm. I suspect that may be from the teething, as I can see his two bottom teeth coming up but they have not cut yet. I will be giving him Advil before he goes to bed tonight. Very rarely is he cranky during the day, it usually rears it head at night.
Easy for today as follows:
Wake 8am
A-8-10:25
S-10:25-12:30
E-12:30
A-12:30-2:50pm
S-2:50-4:30pm

I going to aim to have him in bed by 6:30/6:45 in hopes that is itnformtoday as I think I can get away without a cn given his naps. Will let you know!

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Teething is the pits!  Don't forget teeth can move and cause pain for a long time before they cut too. In my experience the cutting was the absolute worst.  It is common not to have too much fussing in the day when they have lots of things to distract them from the pain.

Looks like a good day though! Well done

[Mommyadel]

Well I am happy ally to report that I got him down at 7pm, I think he was a bit ot at that point as it took a little snuggle and back rug to get him to settle. He woke at the 30 min mark and I resettled him and that was it for the night, he didn't make a peep until 7:30am this morning! Looks like I was just needing to extend the activity time to get the longer naps!

[creations]

Great news

[Mommyadel]

Hey there! So I've managed to get some structure to his naps. He is just about 6 months now and he usually goes down for his first nap at 9-10am and then again 3 hrs later so about 2 ish. If he naps only 30 mins it might be a bit earlier then 2. He will usually wake around 3:30 ish. The problem is on the days he has shorter naps and he wakes around 2:30 if we get his sister it's like he gets a second wind because he is so excited and as much as I try to get him down at 6 it is not always the case. I also noticed the last few days he has been waking around 5:30am for the day as much as I try to resettle him it does not always work and then his naps are wonky for day. Do you think it's because he's. It getting enough daytime sleep or too much?

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He's a bit older now.  He might need a longer A time but I'm not sure what you're on at the moment.
Waking earlier can mean needing the nap to come later (ie a longer A time), and the shorter naps can mean the same (of course it can also mean lots of other things including teething, it depends on the bigger picture and not just A times).
If WU used to be 7/7.30/8am then the first nap probably needs to be at 10.00/10.30/11.00.  9-10 might just be too early.

If you'd like to post your EASY here I can have a look or alternatively, as it is a different age/issue now, you could start a new thread if you'd like fresh eyes on it.

[Mommyadel]

Typical easy
Wu-6: is 6:30
Eat 7:30
Activity 6:30-9:30
Nap 9:30-11
Eat 12:30
Activity 11-2
Nap 2-3:30
Eat 4:30
Activity 3:30-6:30
Bed 6:40/7pm.
That is usually how it works but sometimes he cat naps so then I have to sneak in another nap before bedtime if he doesn't sleep at least 1:20 for each of the naps.  If his last nap ends at 2:30 ish with the way school works etc. Then I will just try for early bedtime at 6. And of course dream feed at 10.
I do try for an early bed time but as soon as he sees his sister he comes to life and has a second wind around 5 and takes some work to get him to go to bed because he is nosy and wants to see what his sister is up to lol. Hopefully that helps. Not sure what to say about the early waking it started a few days ago maybe a week. Waking at 5/5:30 ugh.... makes for long days.

[creations]

Typical easy
Wu-6: is 6:30
Eat 7:30
Activity 6:30-9:30
Nap 9:30-11

Although the A time in the morning is a bit above the average for age, if he was doing well on 3hrs A time and then the EW started it could be you ned to move that first nap a little later.  Initially this will mean a long A time because he's waking extra early but it will hopefully discourage the EW.
Maybe move it 15 mins and see if it helps over a few days?
I think he did well on a longer than average A time before didn't he?  So it would make sense that it would continue to be longer than average.  Remember not all A times need to be equal across the day, if the first is over 3hrs the second might stay at 3hrs if you care getting a good nap there.

[Mommyadel]

Thanks, I think he tends to do a bit better on the longer then average activity times. I have been paying particular attention and when he is tired he tends to rub his hands on his face or tug on his ears. This morning he was up at 6am... I resettled him and he slept til 7am. I put him down for his first nap at 10:05am and he slept til 12:15pm!!! And fornhis next nap he went down at 4:30... and I had to try hard to get him to take a nap. I only needed t to be 30 mins and he woke at 5 and went to bed around 7:15pm. I think the longer activity time is better suited for him so I should try and stick to a 3 hr min.. of course if he is really fussy and tired I will put him down. Thanks for the input

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This morning he was up at 6am... I resettled him and he slept til 7am

Brilliant!

first nap at 10:05am and he slept til 12:15pm!!!

Fabulous!

And fornhis next nap he went down at 4:30... and I had to try hard to get him to take a nap.

Were you trying hard because he was OT or UT? That's a very long A time of over 4hrs, do you think you missed the window and he became a struggle due to OT?  Or were you trying from a 3hr A time to get him down?

Ideally at 6 months there would be two long naps but you've done really well with that day!

[Mommyadel]

Well I had started to put him down at 3:15pm so within the window.. but after that battle he didn't settle until 4:30... he wasn't fussy or crying I just think he wasn't tired. Every time I went in the room to settle him he would see my face and just start giggling ... so I think it was safe to assume he wasn't tired ... little bugger hahahaha!  But I knew he needed one otherwise he would be it by 6 and trying to get him to eat would have been a night mare.
Today he woke at 6:45am... he was a bit restless last night, crying randomly but not waking .. not sure what that was about? But I put him down at 10:10 and he is still alseep and it's 11:30... so we shall see how the day goes.

[Mommyadel]

Further to the comments below he slept til 12:30!!! And then I was able to get him down for a cn at 3:30-4pm and tried for a 6:30/7pm bed time. Turns out the little guy has popped a tooth!!! I just noticed it yesterday afternoon which could explain the previous night of unsettled sleep. What should I do about the naps now? He seems ( well last few days) take a huge nap from 10-12/ 12:30pm should I wake him early and if so around what time ? Or stick to the huge nap and cn in the afternoon? Thanks!

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Ah yes that tooth will explain the restless night.

I think for now keep with the long nap and the CN and see how his mood is and if the nights are okay (teething aside that is, it's not always clear if poor nights are due to teeth or routine).  If he continues to do well on this routine I don't see anything wrong with it.  Obviously if he ends up grumpy or UT/OT then it would be worth reassessing.
Just for reference, so far we've both noticed he does well on a longer than normal A time compared to the guidance times - so keep this in mind with future routines. Also if he continues to do well on the one long and one short nap this is usually what we see in 8-10 month babies (or even older) so keep that in mind too.  It could be worth reading about the 2-1 nap drop ahead of time, it is usually around 10 months that people see signs of the 2-1 starting but yours could do this earlier than expected. it doesn't mean that you drop to one nap as soon as you see the signs, but it would mean a reassessment of routine and preparation for the nap drop.  Some move to one nap early, say 11 months (like mine who showed the signs at 9 months) and some move to one nap incredibly early (say 9 months), so it's worth keeping in mind that some LO are just like this.

You've done so well in following your LOs needs, especially having faith in increasing the A for his needs and getting him such good sleep

[Mommyadel]

Hey! So we have progressed very well with his naps so much so that he is now having none big nap and a cat nap. He has been waking the last few nights at 5am, but I can usually coax him back to sleep with the soother and he wakes finally around 7:30/8am... from the time he wakes he is up for about 3:30hrs I have moved his feed schedule back to 3hrs so he eats before he goes down for his nap at 11:30am. He will nap about 1:30/2hrs and I put him down for a nap at 3:30/4ish and sometimes he does not want to go down for his cat nap. He goes down for his final sleep at 7:30/8.
Two questions - is the early waking because he is not getting enough activity time?
And if he wakes at 7:30/8 when should his final bed time be?

[creations]

Good to hear you had some improvement.
As this thread is a bit out dated now perhaps you'd like to start a new thread with your current questions.