Author Topic: Need reassurance- Starting PU PD and removing dummy at 6 months ->Lots of crying  (Read 700 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jo Fo

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 5
  • Location:
Hi. I need some reassurance that I'm doing the right thing. We have spent 2 nights (and days) using the PU PD technique for sleep and naps and it's not going well. We've taken away baby's dummy and he's really missing it, so every sleep involves a lot of tears. Sometimes he cries in our arms for 20-30 mins before slightly quietening, and instantly cries when he is put down. Eventually he is so tired he starts to fall asleep in our arms, but still wails being put down, and then falls asleep again when he is picked up. The last put down usually involves whimpering and defeat. I don't feel this is teaching baby to settle at all, and teaches him to hate his crib which he used to be ok with. Our bedtimes used to involve a breastfeed and then dummy and were quick, but I need to do something to help him learn to soothe himself to reduce the 6-8 nightly wake ups I was having. It has been my partner doing most of the soothing because I get clawed for a feed, but he is back to work tomorrow.
Thanks in advance
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 17:37:42 pm by Jo Fo »

Offline jessmum46

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 411
  • Posts: 14235
  • Location: UK
Hugs, that sounds tough on you all :(. Could you please post the routine you are aiming for? Getting the routine right, as well as consistency, is key to success with any sort of sleep training. I wonder though - could you perhaps use something more gentle than PUPD? It may be less of a huge change if you try shh pat instead, or a modified version of it. How did he fall asleep before you started the PUPD?
***Katherine***







Offline Jo Fo

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 5
  • Location:
Tonight is our 5th night of no dummy and I think we are regressing (I've read this is common). The last couple of nights involved a lot less tears but tonight he fell asleep early while feeding (because 3 naps today had only been 45 mins) and since then has woken crying 6 times in 4 hours. I'm now listening to baby cry with my partner for going on 20 mins (stopping when cuddled and starting when laid down).

We had made improvements though. We start with shh-pat and if that doesn't work pick up baby. Sometimes it is only 2-3 pick ups and he falls asleep from eyes open with us being present and resting a hand on him and sshhhing. Other times he rebels and cries longer, or I give him a breastfeed if he really seems to be asking for it.

Yesterday was great in terms of routine and is what I would like to aim toward:
Awake 5.30 but got him down at 6 in the spare bed with me until 7.15
Breakfast at 7.45 (still early days for weaning)
Nap 9 - 10.15
BF
Nap 12 - 1.30
BF
Afternoon snack
Nap 4.10 - 4.45
Bath, pjs and BF 6.10 - 6.30
Asleep by 7

A few times in the last few days he has basically fallen asleep on me and then just reshuffled a bit when laid back in bed. Is this ok or giving too much comfort?
Also, do you think it is confusing me and my partner mixing up who goes in?
I'm stilll breastfeeding at roughly 10.30, 12.30, 3.00, 5.30. Would you expect this to reduce?

Thanks in advance.

Offline We Three

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 418
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 15698
  • The Sweetest Thing....
  • Location:
 Sincere question.....you're removing the dummy to reduce night wakings? Not sure I understand....

Offline jessmum46

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 411
  • Posts: 14235
  • Location: UK
I think I understand what We Three means (please do correct me if I've misunderstood though!) - looking at your post I feel there is probably quite a bit more going on that a simple dummy dependence leading to your night wakings and I'm not sure that taking the dummy away is necessarily going to solve things for you entirely.

Firstly, from a BW point of view I would say the routine needs some adjusting.  For a 6 month old we would expect LOs to be somewhere around 2h45-3h or so A time and probably somewhere in the midst of transitioning from 3-2 naps.  Your LO on the routine you posted is having some very short A times - less than 2 hours at times and max of about 2h30.  A 'typical' BW routine on 2 naps at this age would be something like WU 7, Naps 10-11.30 and 2.30-4, with BT at 7pm.  A 3 nap routine with slightly shorter A times would be more like WU 7, Nap 9.30-11, nap 1.30-3, short CN around 5.30 with BT at 7.30/8 (longer than a 12h day common in the run up to nap transitions).  Sometimes keeping LO on too young of a routine can contribute to night wakings as their A times are short and they don't get properly tired enough to sleep soundly at night. 

I would probably suggest to work on gently pushing his A times, starting with the first one of the day, and working towards 2 naps over the next month or so.  From where you are now perhaps start at the 2h mark for first A time, increasing by 10-15 mins every 3-4 days until you get up to closer to 3h.  You can work on all A times at once if you wish, but you'll have to play things a little by ear until he gets used to being awake for longer.

In terms of how you are settling him I think perhaps you might have a combined breast/dummy dependence (prop) for sleeping.  You've made what sounds like great progress in the last few days (well done! :D) if he is now able to settle in his cot with some gentle reassurance, but the goal ideally is to have him fully awake going down and settling himself from there - i.e. from 'eyes open and ready to party' rather than 'eyes open but could drift off any second'.  It sounds like perhaps he is using you/feed/dummy to wind down and get himself in the sleepy zone, so although he's technically doing the last bit of sleep on his own, he's getting 90% of the way there with help.  He's also feeding quite a bit at night for a 6 month old - now I say that with caution as every baby/Mum breastfeeding relationship is different and demand feeding is encouraged, but 4 feeds overnight at roughly 2-2.5h intervals sounds more like he is asking for the breast to help him resettle each time he comes into a light sleep cycle than really being genuinely hungry every time. 

Weaning night feeds can be a little tricky to advise on with a 6 month old who is not yet established fully on solids, but as a base I wouldn't expect him to need feeds more frequently at night than during the day.  So say every 4h or so?  Which would mean 2 feeds at night was pretty reasonable for him for now.  If he wakes and it's been significantly less than 4h I would settle using the shh pat/PUPD you've been using until he goes back to sleep.  It may be easier for your DH to do this.  If it's been a good 4h or so since a feed then you could feed him immediately and put him back down - if he feeds to sleep during a proper night feed (as opposed to a comfort suck) that's less of an issue if he can settle himself at other times.

Is that at all helpful?

***Katherine***







Offline Jo Fo

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 5
  • Location:
Sincere question.....you're removing the dummy to reduce night wakings? Not sure I understand....

Yes that's right. We thought it was a major contributor  to him waking up (Having read the next reply I think now there's more to it!

Offline Jo Fo

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 5
  • Location:
Thank you @jessmum46

I think you are accurate with the combined dummy and breast dependence. Do you have any tips for helping wean that other than my partner going in? We are at the six month 'clingy' stage. How about if I wore one of his shirts?

I hadn't realised I was so off with routine! I will try and extend wake time tomorrow and see how we go.

Offline jessmum46

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 411
  • Posts: 14235
  • Location: UK
How are you getting on?

Have you seen this?  https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52857.0  Possible a less 'rip the plaster off' kind of approach than PUPD?
***Katherine***







Offline Jo Fo

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 5
  • Location:
Thanks Katherine.

Bed times and nap times are easier. Usually 2-4 PUPDs and a bit of rocking, but the last bit he does himself.

We are really struggling with night wakings though. It is often every 60-90 mins. He also has a habit of waking crying 10 mins after being settled. I used to be able to settle him quickly with a dummy but now he is trying to nurse all the time. I am thinking of reintroducing a dummy for the middle of the night only (when he probably doesn't know what's happening) to get him to relax more. This weekend my partner will do the night wakings too so hopefully he learns food isn't readily on tap.

He is going through a separation anxiety phase which may be linked (which means my partner can't always help)
Any other reasons you can think this is happening?

Offline jessmum46

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 411
  • Posts: 14235
  • Location: UK
Hi again, how are things?

We are really struggling with night wakings though. It is often every 60-90 mins.
This really is a lot  :-\ I would worry about discomfort I think....is he refluxy by any chance?  I wonder if he is looking for milk so frequently to soothe pain??  What do you think?
***Katherine***