Author Topic: Need help/advice with nap day schedule (Read 4928 times)

angel_uk · « **on:** September 07, 2017, 10:00:50 am »

Hello. I'm sorry if this is similar to other members posting but I am in a need of some help with our daytime schedule and naps.
.lo is 7 months on the 13th. So far we've been going with the flow. Waking whenever breasfeedig on demand and putting down for naps when we saw tired signs. Usually danish every day. However he's always grumpy and tired as not sleeping enough.
Naps are 3.first 2 got short to under 30 mins now and last one is 2 h but only cos I go to bed with him and settle him back when he wakes up. I am hoping to get him on some kind of schedule that would incorporate school runs( 8.30till9 and 3.15 till 4). I dont know if I need to keep him awake for 2 h between naps to lengthen them. He struggles often going longer than 1h30 as he has such short naps. Please advise what could work and is with trying out. He wakes anytime between 6 to 7 and is in bed for 6pm. Doesn't sleep through but falls asleep on his own with dummy. I will be very grateful for help.

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #1 on:** September 07, 2017, 10:44:07 am »

Hello
I wouldn't worry about starting new posts everybody has a slightly different story and it helps when you have your own thread.

2 things that I can see...

Awake time would be the main one. The avg AT for a 7month old is 2:45-3:13. Although not all babies fit the mold it is likely the culprit for short UT naps. I found after 6 months of age that tired cues alone we're not good enough signs for sleep. Baby's cues can change and they start showing "learned" cues. (Acting tired out of habit).

Unfortunately short UT naps can lead to OT and create a frustrating loop.

I would start by trying to increase one of your AT first (10-15 min increments every 3-5 days). If LO shows cues, try to distract them with new activity, song etc.

2nd would be...
After 6 months you can often drop to 2 naps. This may not happen right away as you would need your naps and AT to lengthen before you could drop 3rd cat nap.

As far as tailoring your routine to fit your day, I would have to see your routine laid out in EASY format.

angel_uk · « **Reply #2 on:** September 07, 2017, 11:05:29 am »

Thank you for reply. Thats what I've been reading for past couple of days about aw. We always went by tired cues. And its been more less like this since school broke up
6to7am awake
Straight away breastfeed
8ish solids
9 to 9.30 bed asleep between 30 to 40 mins
11ish breastfeed
11.30 nap another 30 mins
12 till 1 solids
1ish breastfeed
Between 1 to 2 bed for 2 h but I would go with him so he was settled back
Awake between 3 to 4 depending what time went down
Breastfeed on awake
5.30 bath
6 in bed

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #3 on:** September 07, 2017, 13:29:14 pm »

You said he doesn't STTN, does he take a night feed ?(not unusual at this age still), is he up numerous times? Does he settle on own? With help?

If his nights are reasonably good (looks like you get 12+h) then I would recommend working on the first AT intially as you should not be battling OT so much. Is the 9-930 nap time based off his 7 am wakes, or does he do longer AT with the EW? With your current routine and extending AT your little guy should be on awake time for that 830-9:00 timing that you desire. Does he ever nod off during the school run?

angel_uk · « **Reply #4 on:** September 07, 2017, 14:03:24 pm »

No he doesn't sleep through. He falls asleep on his own with dummy. He wakes for feeds and once nappy change but it various. Earliest wake can be 8.30pm but mostly is 9.30pm. Then I get another two wakes one for feed and one forfeed plus nappy change.usually around 3 h ish apart. He can wake after 5am to 6am for dummy and if its 6am he often goes for top up in my bed till we get up at around 6.30am, sometimes( but rarely) he goes past 7. He gets breastfed at each wake and straight back to sleep.
I usually put him for or first nap anytime from 9 am depending on signs. But he is dhoejng digns before like atv8.30.Now with school run he would fall asleep sometimes on way back but wake up as we get in. Sometimes he wouldn't then I put him straight down as we get in. Thats the morning one.

angel_uk · « **Reply #5 on:** September 07, 2017, 18:02:36 pm »

I'm just wondering as it doesn't bother me if he has 3 or more naps if maybe I could start his 3rd longest nap at something like 1.30 and let him sleep with me next to him as its only way he sleeps Longer till before 3.then do school run and get him down for another short one as we r back at 4 as I know he won't last till 6 bed time.

Or try the second nap at 12 instead if 11.30 and hope for the best he sleeps at least 1h 30 and then third nap would happen on the school run but very likely it'll be shirr with all kids screaming about when out of school.

I am really lost as what to do as I dont want nights to get any worse.

This is what happened today as he woke at 6 am earlier than nornal. :
Day routine Thursday 7th
6 am wake
7 bf
8.25 bed
8.45 asleep
9.11 awake
9.30 solids
10.45 milk
10.53 bed
11.04 asleep
11.33 wake/ settle back by me
11.40 asleep
11.44 awake as clearly settling didnt work
12.30 lunch
13.50 bed
13.55 asleep

15.12 dog barkwoke him up so settled him back
15.16 back 2 sleep
15.25 resettle once again as was fighting it. Went to sleep.
16.23 Awake and boob
6 bath and boob
6.30 bed
6.40 asleep

I moved his bedtine later in hope of him wqking later. Usually he is in bed at 6 and asleep by 6.15

angel_uk · « **Reply #6 on:** September 08, 2017, 08:39:57 am »

So this morning he woke up at 5.I left him as he was babbling and hoped hell go back to sleep but at 5.30 he started crying so I got up and gave him dummy he only managed around 30 mins. So I got up and fed him and put him back in cot. He was crying so I soothed him at 6.08 he was asleep but at 6.30 my husband stirring woke him up so he ended up in my bed asleep till 7.08.
I was hoping to avoid taking to my bed as people say they get used to it? Is that right at this age? I just wanted him to sleep till7 so he would last till 9 for his nap.

angel_uk · « **Reply #7 on:** September 08, 2017, 08:51:24 am »

And thats is he just woke at 9.45 crying. So keeping him for 2.15 made absolutely no difference yet. He had 22 mins and now will be ot for his next nap if I keep him another 2.15 or 2.30. What time should I put him down please?

.

angel_uk · « **Reply #8 on:** September 08, 2017, 09:12:53 am »

25 mins later he's showing me signs of being tired and is ehingy

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #9 on:** September 08, 2017, 15:58:49 pm »

*hugs* naps can be the most frustrating things!!

I will try my best with some of your most recent posts...

At night: does he take a full feed each time? Or has the BF to put back down become a bit if a habit? Do you do a dreamfeed?

As far as keeping the third nap. It is a good tool for now to avoid OT at BT.

As for pushing BT I know it sounds counterintuitive, but an OT baby at BT is more likely to wake early so I would stick with your previous BT for now.

You are at the hardest most frustrating part of nap adjustment right now. Try to hang in there. It does take sometimes 5 days of a consistent adjustment to see changes and you will likely find yourself in an OT loop. With your little guy crying at 25-30 min you are right to assume OT.

What do you do to try and resettle? It may seem and be futile for a while but eventually you will find that an OT baby is easier to resettle than an UT baby.

Your question about bringing your baby to sleep with you... Can a baby get used to that at this stage? Prop?... Yes... But sometimes we have to do what we have to do to help our babies and our selves. I and most of the mammas on this board will admit to APOP at some point. The key is to not make a habit of it. Meaning try not to use that prop at every nap, maybe not even the same nap each day.

Babies need time to adjust to changes. If you need to put your little guy down a bit earlier for 2nd nap (if first one is short) that is ok. Just focus on that first nap for now. When you see improvements there you can start working on the next one.

Hang in there!!

angel_uk · « **Reply #10 on:** September 08, 2017, 18:17:49 pm »

Thank you so much for your reply. I went full in today. And boy was it hard. He was crancky all day long. Did I do bad by going all in? I just didn't know what to do and if I'm going to make things worse. So this is what it looked like from his first early waking
5awake
5.33 asleep
6.awake and boob
6.04 back in cot
6.10 a sleep with assist but not fully so end up crying at 6.30 in my bed till 7.08 when we got up

9.05 feed
9.13 bed
9.22 asleep but had a cry falling asleep first
9.45 awake
9.55 solids
11.45 boob
11.52 bed a sleep within minute
12.33 woke. Settled back by me.
12.43 again
12.46asleep
13.13 awake
13.20 asleep
13.30 awake
16.00 boob
17.solids
18.40 bath
18.50 boob
19.00 bed
19.08 asleep
So when I settle him back I put him back to hisnpossition he falls asleep which is his side and stroke his back and give him dummy
He is almost using dummy on his own now but when he wakes he dont want to find it.

When he feeds at night yes he always takes both sides and is very quick. About 7 minutes. He doesn't fall asleep on boob ever. He rather get off and fall asleep on the feeding pillow but no as soon as he stops drinking I pick him up and lie him back down. He turns and goes to sleep.
I don't put lights on or anything.
I dont do dream feed as I always wait till he wakes as he can be inconsistent.
I am expecting wakes tonight since I completely changed his day and bed time. I am worried that I've done wrong too much too soon. As i always used to put him down every time he was tired.
I didn't even do second nap in bed with him just stayed in the room and resettle him back in cot.

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #11 on:** September 08, 2017, 20:12:41 pm »

I don't think going all in is wrong. Sometimes a large shake up is necessary and pulling off a bandage all at once may be more preferred method.
Just be consistent with the changes you made today for a few days otherwise you will never know what works and what does not.

angel_uk · « **Reply #12 on:** September 08, 2017, 20:20:13 pm »

I will do thank you so much. I'm tired myself now lol. So just gonna get myself of to bed. Thank you once again for your help and keep fingers crossed for us. Hope tomorrow is a but easier.

becj86 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 08, 2017, 21:36:22 pm »

Hi, just popping on to lend an extra pair of eyes.

LaraAndrea has given wonderful advice and support. I just wanted to offer another perspective from years hanging around on these boards and having seen babies with A times a long way short of average for their age and how long it takes to get them on the right track. If you were to consider that on average you'll add 15min to your baby's A time per week (this accounts for setbacks, days when you just can't push, etc.) and that between 4 and 6 months of age, a baby's A time goes up by 15min every 2 weeks or so, you've a long, long time to get back on track. You know the song about the frog that goes up two jumps but slips back down one - that's what ends up happening when people add A time gently when they're a long way off appropriate A times and things can get very messy and it can take months to get on the right track. I've supported a few mums here through jumping straight to average A times then tweaking from there. It is a hard and very intensive couple of weeks but things tend to end up much cleaner much sooner. If that's something you'd like to try, we're happy to help with that. It is a hard few days initially but often the self-settling issues tend to resolve at least partially just because baby is tired enough to take a proper nap and that resolves the undercurrent of chronic OT that builds up from so many short naps.

angel_uk · « **Reply #14 on:** September 09, 2017, 08:10:52 am »

Hello and thank you for your reply and time.
Thats what I was thinking myself when getting it all through my head. It would take ages and who knows what outcome would've been.
So the night went really great. He woke at 10.40 pm after going down at 7 had a 15 minute wake as I couldn't get a letdown( I was proper stressed) but then straight to sleep till 3.47.I gave him another feed and didn't change nappy as that just really wakes him. He went back to sleep from near 4 till he woke at 6.35.my husband had to get up to the poo so not sure if that woke him up or he just did it on his own.
He had a great sleep and all by himself. It was me that slept crap as I was just expecting a bad night. Typical that lol.
Anyways I've just put him down for his first nap and he's falling asleep now its 9.10am. We'll see how long he can manage on his own if its going to be short I will try resettle and go from there. Once again thank you for all your input and time taken to help me out. 🙂🙂xx

angel_uk · « **Reply #15 on:** September 10, 2017, 09:05:31 am »

It seems to me like he definitely cant connect his sleep cycles. Which is weird as at night he sleeps stretches and that nap he used to have in my bed he could go for 75 mins. I keep resetting him but he manages extra 10 mins and then mostly wakes up. Why is it that he can sleep longer at night and in my bed but not in cot during day? Also on average how long if the settling help before babies get the message if u know what I mean. I'm just wondering where to set my expectations.

angel_uk · « **Reply #16 on:** September 10, 2017, 18:16:06 pm »

Hello. Just a little update. Last night wasn't very good. He woke up 3 or 4 times where I fed him and once I gave him dummy. Then at 6 he ended up in my bed to go through till 7.days has been hard. He seems to be teething again. He's both bottom teeth r out but he was s bit rosy. Struggled during day with tiredness big time and naps were short. But we sticking to it. I hope soon he will get some more sleep. Its hard watching him struggle.
I think tomorrow just to give him some rest I might take him for the second nap in my bed so he can catch up a little bit as he sleeps so much better then.

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #17 on:** September 10, 2017, 19:03:40 pm »

I found that baby would be soooo tired by night time that they were better able to connect cycles. They also get used to things being a certain way. He is used to sleeping with you for at least part if the time. He will get used to his new sleep environment.

angel_uk · « **Reply #18 on:** September 12, 2017, 10:27:49 am »

You know when it happens that the first nap is very short like today 26 mins in the pram as noises outside just kept waking him up. Do I still wait till out desired nap time in the afternoon? Even when he is soooo tired and whiney? He woke before 9.30 from it today and its anytime from 12 I would like his second nap. Do I keep him up? There is no way I can keep him awake at school run to get him down in
Cot at 9.he just falls asleep no matter what and then when I try keeping him awake and put him in cot he screams. So I think I'll just let him sleep in pram and hope those will get longer. But do we wait even if its almost 3 h for mid nap?

angel_uk · « **Reply #19 on:** September 12, 2017, 12:50:25 pm »

I don't know if I am making everything worse. Dont know what his awake times should be and if i am making him just more overtired. His moaning and whining been going for ages now not since i changed the routine times. He always seemed to be tired and unhappy cos of it.
The mid nap went so crap that I ended taking him to my bed just to give him more sleep.
He woke at. 6.28 then had 23 mins at. 8.40. Then was too tired to feed st mid nap. Feel asleep instantly as so tired at 12.16.had 30 mins. Took 8 mins to settle back juetntonhsve another 36 mins. I feel like I'm missing the whole point here.
Is this all actually gonna help or should I be putting him down as much as he needs and whenever he needs and not watch the clock?
If he wakes anytime from 6 onwards and then napsnkn pram at aroundn8.40 but short. What should my next a timenbemand then next one of he naps rubbish again andnonky manages 1h or 1.30 h with 2 settlings back? Also if last nap is after 4 he awake before 5 then bedtime at 6.30 or 7? And I mean being in the cot.
I really feel like I'm not doing him any favours right now and I feel completely down with it all.
All he does is be unhappy. Sits and moans. Doesn't want to be in highchair to eat.its just not easy at all.

angel_uk · « **Reply #20 on:** September 12, 2017, 15:22:32 pm »

At the third, last nap he is just overtired and does not manage to fall asleep without having a crying episode first. I feel as every time he is going to bed is way past his time and he is just so overtired he can't sleep. Do actually all 7 month old babies stay awake this long and stay happy?

angel_uk · « **Reply #21 on:** September 12, 2017, 16:17:46 pm »

Sorry for all the questions at once. I feel a bit lost and it's hard watching him so upset. I'm looking at the age appropriate a times and it's anything from 2.15h. I'm thinking with him being so tired for such a long tine and always needing sleep due to short naps. Would we benefit from going down for nap every 2 h if they r short, giving him 14 mins to fall asleep? And even if that woukd mean 4 naps a day? If the 3rd one was close to school run id just have to get him up but then he could have another if needed? Idk really what to think.

angel_uk · « **Reply #22 on:** September 13, 2017, 07:31:45 am »

Anyone please?

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #23 on:** September 13, 2017, 11:51:14 am »

Hugs to you and your OT little guy.

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I want to support you but I don't want to steer you wrong either.

My experience with my little one was different so I do not have perspective to offer.

Avg AT are just that and they do not apply exactly to all babies, but they do apply to the majority. My LO was opposite of your as she was doing almost 3.5h AT in the am at 7 months. Babies also are creatures of habit. They get used to things even if those things may be shorter than avg AT.

I am not certain of the best next step that will make both of you happy. You may need to work with your situation for now. As it is near impossible to keep OT baby awake in car or pram trip.

So your little guy is falling asleep in pram after 2:15-2:30h for a short nap? Is there anyway we can find to extend that nap? Do you have some white noise that may help with the outside sounds so he may continue longer in pram?

My only thought is To curb OT you may have to continue with your sleep props until little guy is on a more age appropriate routine/schedule that also works for you then battle breaking the sleep props and work on more independent sleep. To be honest I don't know if that is the right play, but I do believe you will both be happier with some rest.

angel_uk · « **Reply #24 on:** September 13, 2017, 13:21:15 pm »

Thank u for your reply and help. I don't think it's working at all the keeping him awake longer. He still does 30 mins naps and only once in a while let's me resettle him for longer. Often it's 10 extra minutes and then he won't go back down. Then it feels like it's a battle. My second child was a cat napper but I remember at some point he just stopped also started sleeping through at 7 months. Only difference is he was not constantly tired after the short naps so I just put him down as many times as I needed.
I think I will just carry on watching his signs and put him down when he needs it. And if the longer nap I nly takes place in my bed I might just have to do that. I just cant do anything around the house with his short sleeps, even dinner is made very late as I can't watch him or carry him and make dinner. I feel very stressed and down cos of it and feel like it's all on me. Plus I wish he was happier and less tired and managed to okay longer for his sake rather than feel tired all the time

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #25 on:** September 13, 2017, 13:33:27 pm »

I understand. I always felt down and guilty when this didn't go as planned. But babies don't know anything about this "rule book" we have created for ourselves.

It's best to do whatever makes the both of you the happiest!

becj86 · « **Reply #26 on:** September 14, 2017, 06:59:24 am »

Hugs for the difficult time. Its awful when you feel like you do.

Sorry I didn't reply - its not easy to get my point across typing on the phone because I talk too much

Quote from: angel_uk on September 12, 2017, 12:50:25 pm

Is this all actually gonna help or should I be putting him down as much as he needs and whenever he needs and not watch the clock?

Well, that's the big question. Really, yes I think it would help if you were able to keep it up and resettle the 30min wakings which are all but inevitable with a big jump in A time. In my experience, you'd have to jump to 3hr A (2:45 after a short nap) and stick to it for a week then tweak from there.

Having said that, lets go back to your original intent. If I recall he was always grumpy because he wasn't sleeping enough. There wasn't really any sort of routine. BW is not a magic bullet, things won't improve immediately. If having a routine and keeping him up is going against your parenting instincts, nobody here will try to make you do it. All we can do is tell you what we know from our experiences with our own children and from helping people on this forum. I've been here about 6 years now and I can say that it takes weeks to get a child of your baby's age who's never had a routine to settle into a routine. You're changing almost everything he's known all his life. If you are able to be consistent with A times, feeds upon waking (with a topup feed ~1hr after if necessary if EBF) and resettling short naps, I've seen it come good every time but once but its not an easy road initially.

Quote from: LaraAndrea on September 13, 2017, 11:51:14 am

My only thought is To curb OT you may have to continue with your sleep props until little guy is on a more age appropriate routine/schedule that also works for you then battle breaking the sleep props and work on more independent sleep. To be honest I don't know if that is the right play, but I do believe you will both be happier with some rest.

This is actually really sound advice IME. If you can get LO sleeping long naps by longer A times and with props, its much easier to get them to sleep long independent naps once they're used to sleeping more consolidated naps.

As I've said many a time, your health and the general care of your whole family are important. Do what you need to for you all. We're happy to hold your hand and support you with gentle methods to get into a routine should you want to do so but given your current stress level, its probably not a great time to start.

angel_uk · « **Reply #27 on:** September 14, 2017, 08:47:55 am »

Hello and thank you for all your help. I really appreciate that you took time to write to me.
I think a lot of the problems are down to his teething. He's been getting worse over the last few days, being very imapatiant for letdown and just wanting things in his mouth all the time. Now to the point last night he woukd not feed after waking. He wants the milk immediately and is not willing to work for it/suck. For the first time since he was born it took us an hour to go back to sleep. And all cos he wouldn't feed. I think the teeth must be really annoying him.

becj86 · « **Reply #28 on:** September 14, 2017, 20:27:10 pm »

Poor little chappie. Just do what you need to to get through. Sounds like he's having a hard time. You can try some breast compressions to reduce the wait time...

angel_uk · « **Reply #29 on:** September 15, 2017, 19:30:36 pm »

Thank you. He's definitely struggling right now. I wonder if any more teeth is on the way as cant see anything in gums.
He is back to his 4 naps a day and still short as I stopped taking him to bed for the afternoon one. He wint even let me resettle him back anymore. Once he's awake that's it.

becj86 · « **Reply #30 on:** September 17, 2017, 05:55:00 am »

Ok, sounds like its worth taking a break til he's feeling a bit better. Life's probably pretty hectic for you with the new school year starting, etc.

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Author Topic: Need help/advice with nap day schedule (Read 4928 times)