Author Topic: 12week old fighting sleep afternoons and night on 4hr EASY  (Read 1428 times)

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Offline Northlondonmum

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12week old fighting sleep afternoons and night on 4hr EASY
« on: September 17, 2017, 22:09:11 pm »
Hello everyone!

I hope you can be of help. We have started the EASY routine two weeks ago as I was finding my baby would cry when tired and as a result fight sleep screaming and crying and needing much rocking etc.

I wrote down her normal biorhythm routine and it is similar everyday apart from I feed her earlier or later if she really seems hungry and agitated  She can do the 1.5hr naps mornings but afternoons this dwindles down to 40 mins to an hour. I have read about light sleep cycles and do try to rock the cot at 40 mins. But this doesn't help. She cries when awakening.

From around 5pm onwards she cries at too much play, and kicks and screams to be put to sleep yet can only open and close eyes. The first short catnap is about twenty mins. The rest of the evening she is very upset at not being able to sleep. And each catnap then brings about an even more
Upset baby.
We resort to holding her to sleep til the next feed. I've tried to shorten to a three hour EADY every evening. This helps a little but she still is still agitated to sleep.

She rubs eyes. Yawns. Hides face in my underarm area. Tightly tries to close eyes.

I watch for tiredness cues and try to shush pat rock as soon as. Mornings this works a treat. Evenings it's hard work but works for short short catnaps.

I really cannot work out what I'm doing wrong


I hope someone can be of help as at my wits end!

Offline becj86

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Re: 12week old fighting sleep afternoons and night on 4hr EASY
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2017, 01:52:39 am »
Hi, welcome to BW!

It sounds like things are going well in the morning and you're getting to know her cues really well for such a young baby.

Some of this behaviour around the evening sounds like 'witching hour' stuff - quite normal though also distressing for parents who just want their sweet little baby to always be happy. It doesn't sound like you're doing anything wrong and it may help to know that a lot of babies do have these unsettled periods in the afternoon. A little perspective re: crying can help too - crying is her only method of communication

I wonder about a few things:
1. Can you write out a day in EAS format for us? That will help us tweak the routine if that might help.
2. If something happening around 5pm? Dad/siblings getting home, increased traffic/surrounding noise, anything else? This can be overstimulating so lots of tight hugs and keeping things as quiet and calm as possible can help there. A 20min nap is classically from overstimulation or pain, so it might be worth doing a longer winddown before the nap that is really short.

Hugs, these early days can be very tricky. Hang in there, we will be able to give you some ideas to try.

Offline Northlondonmum

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Re: 12week old fighting sleep afternoons and night on 4hr EASY
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2017, 10:00:00 am »
Thank you @becj86

Here is a few sample days;

5.50 E
6.00 A
7.30 S

10.15 E
10.30 A
11.30 S

1.30 E
2.00 A
2.40 S

4.00 - 5.10 rocked to sleep

5.20 E
6.00 A
No sleep. Rocked or slept catnaps twenty mins

9.00 E
9.30 A
10.00 S


Another day;

5.00 E
5.30 A
6.00S

8.00 E
8.15 A
9.00 S

1.00 E
1.30 A
2.00 S
3.00 S crying. Settling in arms

4.15 E
5.00 A
6.00 s. Fighting sleep and crying to sleep.
6.30. s. Woke and crying even more
7.15. Screaming to sleep. Rubbing eyes. Burrowing into armpit.

7.15 E
7.30 A
8.00 S


Another day;

6.30 E
7.00 A
8.00 S

10.00 A. Morning bath
10.30 S
11-12 A. Class.
12-2.20 S. in pram. Outside

2.20 E
2.45 A
3.30 S
4.30 S settled back. Rocked.

5.30 E
6.00 A
7.00 no sleep. tried rocking. Crying. Five min naps maybe at a time

8.30 E
8.45 A
9.30 S



Some notes; I give her a morning bath normally at second feed. Evenings husband comes back around five or six.
I try to watch for cues and get her to settle to sleep when she yawns or rubs eyes. Evenings as husband is spending time with her, I miss the cues and settle her after she cries and husband has been trying unsuccessfully to settle her. The longer she goes without being settled, the harder it is.

Some days I have tried to change to a three hour EASY evenings as I feel she only likes small amounts of activity some days and then cannot sleep the remaining time.


Really hope you can be of help!! 🙏🙏


Offline becj86

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Re: 12week old fighting sleep afternoons and night on 4hr EASY
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2017, 09:14:54 am »
Ok, so my general impressions are:
1. She's sleeping some pretty long naps (presuming she sleeps from S to the next E). If that is the case, she probably needs to be woken after max. 3hr, I would tend to go with 2-2.5hr just so she can tell the difference between night and day.
2. She's up at around 6am each day, so BT should be about 6pm - as in asleep for the night at 6pm. That's likely why she's upset at that hour, she's OT and needs to be in bed for the night. (Or you need to treat that 5am-ish feed as a NF and put her straight back in bed and not start your day til closer to 7/8am - then you can have a 7-8pm BT.)
3. Husband coming home... not sure if chicken or egg wrt the unsettledness. I know DS would literally shake with excitement when DH came home/we went to pick him up and it would take 2hr to get him to settle and he was always OT so I would have him asleep when DH arrived home so I had maximum chance of him calming again before going to bed or I'd wait til he woke from his nap, go and pick DH up and he'd have a full A time with DH. DHs can be very overstimulating just by being there because they're relatively novel so when they get kiddo all excited, its just too much and LO won't settle. There's a time and place for that and its on the weekend, during the day not at night time just before BT.

Offline Northlondonmum

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Re: 12week old fighting sleep afternoons and night on 4hr EASY
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2017, 16:58:43 pm »
Hello again!

My baby is nearly 16 week


E 0500
A 0530 low key. She won't dream feed. Dim
Light still. Projector or just smiles to show there. Sometimes independent play in crib.
S 0600

E 0830
A.0930 bath and play.
S 1015

E 1230
A 1300
S 1400. Catnap. Needs resettling every twenty mins. Lots
Of crying. Long settling. Shush pat rock in arm til deep asleep. Can't seem
To settle in cot

E 1500 can't settle so go to feed. She cries until fed
A 1530
S 1630. Screaming crying at this stage. Doesn't want to be held to sleep. Writhing around. Wants arms to hit around. Long long settling stage. Doesn't show tiredness signs just starts crying.
Tried changing activities to see if boredom but will cry at anything even smiles at this stage

A 1700
E 1730
A 1800 low
Key. Not ready to
Sleep
S 1930
Awake 2000

DF 2000
S 2030

The afternoon sleeps are inclusive of settling time!


I've just put her down again at 1700. Rocking in crib as awake twenty mins later and one hour to feed still. 

Other days;

0700 E
0800 A
0900 s

1000 e
1030 a bath
1130 s

130 e
200 a
315 s

400 e
430 a
530 s

600 a / s resettle. Hold in arms
630 e
700 a
800 df
830 s


The pattern seems to be she likes to sleep 8 pm, awake 5 or 7. Sleep a lot of the morning. Fight sleep
And cry progressively worse through the day.

My last activity is low-key. I try to not use over stimulating activities in the afternoon. I look for cues
After one hour fifteen mins or one hour thirty, I still
Try to put her to sleep

Naps are in crib. Blinds down. White noise on

Incidentally on awakening she doesn't scream just play then cry after a while


Any help would be greatly appreeciated

 I've read soooo much and can't get it right








Offline Northlondonmum

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Re: 12week old fighting sleep afternoons and night on 4hr EASY
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2017, 18:09:28 pm »
Ok, so my general impressions are:
1. She's sleeping some pretty long naps (presuming she sleeps from S to the next E). If that is the case, she probably needs to be woken after max. 3hr, I would tend to go with 2-2.5hr just so she can tell the difference between night and day.
2. She's up at around 6am each day, so BT should be about 6pm - as in asleep for the night at 6pm. That's likely why she's upset at that hour, she's OT and needs to be in bed for the night. (Or you need to treat that 5am-ish feed as a NF and put her straight back in bed and not start your day til closer to 7/8am - then you can have a 7-8pm BT.)
3. Husband coming home... not sure if chicken or egg wrt the unsettledness. I know DS would literally shake with excitement when DH came home/we went to pick him up and it would take 2hr to get him to settle and he was always OT so I would have him asleep when DH arrived home so I had maximum chance of him calming again before going to bed or I'd wait til he woke from his nap, go and pick DH up and he'd have a full A time with DH. DHs can be very overstimulating just by being there because they're relatively novel so when they get kiddo all excited, its just too much and LO won't settle. There's a time and place for that and its on the weekend, during the day not at night time just before BT.


Thank you. I've tried to treat morning awakening as dream feed. She's slowly now starting to awaken at seven.

I get my husband to try and do the sleep routine so it's not too stimulating and they get time together.

I'm trying for each nap not to be more than 1.5 hours but she seems to take that quota in the morning.

I'm also trying activity before feed or resettling or watching what she does as it's not always crying.

Night sleep tends to be around 8. Every time I've tried earlier she awAkes. That would mean her first so called nap must be her night sleep and she's sleeping the 8-9 til 5 then again til 9

Her morning naps are around 10-11 and 12-1 and afternoons 30 mins only. 20 or 10 mins evenings.

The problem I find is she's not happy to just continue and needs a feed before more activity so the three hour easy turns to two and half!!


Offline Northlondonmum

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Re: 12week old fighting sleep afternoons and night on 4hr EASY
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2017, 18:11:31 pm »
So having amended on your guys advice, what else do you think I can do or am doing wrong?

Thanks sooo much. Been sooo helpful and such a lifeline ☺️☺️☺️

Offline becj86

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Re: 12week old fighting sleep afternoons and night on 4hr EASY
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2017, 19:00:20 pm »
Can you write out in EAS what her last day has been so its a bit clearer in my head? From what you've written I think you might be waking her after 1.5hr asleep. She's probably OT with that and ideally you wouldn't wake unless the nap is more than 2hr. Its nicest for LO and easiest for you to sneak in at 2hr and just wake/pick her up as she's stirring between sleep cycles, but wake by 2.5hr if she's not stirred.
1.5hr is probably the time she needs to be awake between waking and falling asleep again during the day. This time will increase to around 2hr by 4 months, so that's about 15min increase per week - doing that gradually can help reduce the short nap troubles we often see around 4 months :)

An 11hr night from 8pm til 7am is reasonable and her noght sleep seems pretty solid from what you've said - presume you're happy in that department?

The problem I find is she's not happy to just continue and needs a feed before more activity so the three hour easy turns to two and half!!
That's ok. It doesn't have to be 3hr on the dot by any means, EAS is just about her having the predictable sequence of events which builds trust that her basic needs are being met and will continue to be.


Offline Northlondonmum

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Re: 12week old fighting sleep afternoons and night on 4hr EASY
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2017, 19:24:06 pm »
Today;

E 500
A 530
S 600

E 700
A 730
S 800

E 1000
A 1015  bath
S 1100

E 1230. I went in and she stirred on me going in so I said hello
A 100
S 230 two bursts of ten mins. One in arms. Fighting.

E 300
A 3.30
S 5.00
Resettled 5.20 by rocking continuously. She was awake til feed.

A 6.00
E 6.30
A 7.00. Wind down  massage
Cluster feed 8.00 two ounces.
8.20 S

Yes I'm ecstatic she goes through til 5 and odd days 7!!

Just it's heartbreaking to see her cry and fight sleep in the day as she's so alert and full of energy.
I can't wait for when she can stay awake longer as she's desperate to but gets tired by 1.15 mins and shattered by 1.30 hours








Offline becj86

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Re: 12week old fighting sleep afternoons and night on 4hr EASY
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2017, 19:47:56 pm »
So I've seen the other thread you started and realised she's nearly 4 months old! Wow!

When she wakes at 5am, you don't need to do A time. You just feed her, change nappy if necessary and put her down to go back to sleep. No interacting - its sleep time, not play time. Don't make being awake attractive.

If you increase that A time after she wakes for the day (7am this morning), she will be OT but she will also be encouraged to sleep later in the morning. Its only an hour at the moment and should be much closer to 2hr by now so that's likely why she wants to play instead of going back to sleep when she wakes for a feed in the night.

E 1230. I went in and she stirred on me going in so I said hello
A 100
S 230 two bursts of ten mins. One in arms. Fighting.
This is likely because she's overtired. You've jumped from 1hr A times to 2hr.
E 300
A 3.30
S 5.00
Resettled 5.20 by rocking continuously. She was awake til feed
Again, very OT with 2hr A time after 2x10min nap.

The alertness and likely happy, giggly reactions to everything you're seeing in the afternoon is probably a sign that she's OT.

So my thoughts re: making things more consistent are:
Try to have a consistent 1.5hr A time through the day (shift the routine to start when she wakes), like this:
7 wake, feed
8:30 nap
10:30 wake, feed (fine if this is 10 but based on how she goes at the moment, probably 2hr is realistic)
12 nap
1:30 wake, feed
3 nap
4:30 wake, feed (now is the time for dad to come home and play ;) )
6 ~30min catnap (this can be a nap on dad while he goes for a walk or something...)
8pm asleep in bed

Now I suspect she will wake at 30min into some of these naps initially but you shiuld be able to resettle if you stay with her from 20min into the nap and just shush/pat or whatever you do to setttle her through that stirring. Don't wait for her to wake and cry - she'll likely get quite worked up and not resettle that way. I also think her nights might take a hit initially because she'll be sleeping better during that day and I think at the moment, she's crashing and sleeping such a long stretch because she's exhausted by the end of the day.

Give this 1.5hr A time 3-4 days and then we can reassess. She may by then be ready for 1:45 A times.

Offline Northlondonmum

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Re: 12week old fighting sleep afternoons and night on 4hr EASY
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2017, 02:20:50 am »
Sorry I must have baby brain. I did post earlier on this. I should have added to that thread.
This was the latest updated eas based on the advice from last time... ???

Offline Northlondonmum

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Re: 12week old fighting sleep afternoons and night on 4hr EASY
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2017, 02:24:59 am »
Thankyou @becj86!!
Will try that over the next few days!!
Time does fly. She was nearly 13 weeks when I posted and 15 now coming up to 16!

Offline Erin M

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Re: 12week old fighting sleep afternoons and night on 4hr EASY
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2017, 03:02:52 am »
Hi there!  I merged your two topics just to keep all your information in one place.  Makes it much easier!

Offline Northlondonmum

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Re: 12week old fighting sleep afternoons and night on 4hr EASY
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2017, 14:20:48 pm »
Hello!

So update for this week. I've been trying the settling in the afternoon and this has really helped. First few days I took her out at activity time and nap in pram. Other days just rocked. One day after twenty mins, I thought she was fine, but she started crying thirty mins into the nap.

What I've started doing on your advice now is easa eas. The activity after sleep she is getting used to now. Is that okay to do? She is doing 1.15hrs A. Some days 1.30hrs. Mostly 1.15. But after her shorter naps, she can do another 30-45 mins before she asks for a feed. That's taking her easy to 3.5 hours

I got her age  wrong! She's 15 weeks still. So two weeks to
Four months.

Her easy:

06:00 e
06:15 a
07:30 s

08:30 a
9:30 e
10:00 a
11:30 s

12:15 a
13:00 e
13:15 a
13:40 s she was crying to sleep

 S 14:00 resettled
S 14:15 resettled
S 14:30 resettled

15:30 a
16:00 e
16:30 a
17:15 s catnap in arms

18:00 a
19:00 e
19:30 night time wind down
20:00 rest of feed. E. Or two
More
Ounces.
20:15 s





Offline Northlondonmum

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Re: 12week old fighting sleep afternoons and night on 4hr EASY
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2017, 14:22:44 pm »
I'd love for her to retrain to nap in afternoons

She does seem to be napping shorter in the mornings now!