5.5months transitioned to 2naps but still NWs

[ZanesOTmom]

Hi there. My baby started on EASY about 2 months ago and we've come a long way. He now sleeps on his crib and goes down quickly during naps and bedtime since extending AT. About 2-3 weeks ago his wakings got earlier and earlier. Started at 5am (WU is 7am) then got worse to the point of several wakings from midnight to WU. It was suggested to start 3-2 transition and we are now on Day 8 of 2 day time naps and 3h AT. Problem is, we still have NW/EW but better - earliest had been 4am. When he wakes, he keeps moving in the crib and would slam his limbs. Sometimes he would go back to sleep by himself then the slamming would happen again after half an hour or so. Sometimes, he would do the cot party then after 15-20mins he would start to whine then cry. Depending how well rested I am, he may stay in the crib til 0645-0700 or I would take him to bed with me, also in the nursery.

Here's our EASY most of the time:

WU/pick-up 0645/0700
E 0710 then solids after 1-1.5h
A 3h
S ~10am 36m + 17m + 38m (he's always napped for 30mins for as long as I can remember. I've done WTS for about 2 months now and worked a handful of times. His naps are fragmented; if the shpattin/WTS didn't work he would open his eyes then need to be rocked then crib drowsy. No crying. He goes down between 3-15mins. I keep putting him back to slee until he sleeps for at least an hour cumulatively)

E ~11-1130 depending on wake up time then solids after 1-1.5h
A 3h
S ~1430 (again fragmented, he wakes up after 30-38m With or without support)

E ~16-1630
A 3-3.10h
~1830 Bath and bedtime routine then top-up
~1930 crib drowsy then sleep

NF once anytime between 2345-0330h. Out of the past 4 nights, he slept >5hrs 3 times which is very much an improvement since starting EASY. I don't DF as I go to bed early and it messed up our nights with more NW when I tried it. This morning, he woke up at 4am (NF was at 1am) and was able to self settle until NW again at 0530. I took him to bed with me <--- is this more trouble waiting to happen if I keep doing this? I just need him to be well-rested or it's hard to do 3h AT in the morning. He already gets cranky at 2hrs in...

Any suggestions? Thank you

[ginger428]

Hi Zanesmom,

Sometimes, he would do the cot party then after 15-20mins he would start to whine then cry. Depending how well rested I am, he may stay in the crib til 0645-0700 or I would take him to bed with me, also in the nursery.

Can you clarify.. is he crying from when he wakes until you get him or do you get him once he starts crying?

My gut reaction is that he's OT at the moment... with a broken 10 hr night, and only 1.5 total day time sleep, I can imagine why he might be tired after 2 hrs in the morning.  But it's also true that you don't want to put down so early...

I'm confused about the last A time to bed... is his second nap only 30 mins and wakes around 1300? Or is the nap longer?

S ~1430 (again fragmented, he wakes up after 30-38m With or without support)

E ~16-1630
A 3-3.10h
~1830 Bath and bedtime routine then top-up
~1930 crib drowsy then sleep

If the nap ends at 1300, and he falls asleep at 1930, 4.5 hrs later, then bedtime is too late.  I would aim for bedtime of 1830 latest.

Because he is at the stage and age where we can go backwards in independent sleeping skills, I would try as best as possible to settle him in his crib.  I realize that this is so hard when you're sleep deprived... is there any way you can go to bed even earlier to be well rested to do this?

If he's anything like my son, he needed a lot of pressure to help him settle and sleep.  I would try almost hugging him in his crib to help him settle and eventually release pressure to where maybe a firm hand on his back or patting will help. 

[ZanesOTmom]

Hi. Thanks so much for the detailed response.

No, he doesn't cry when he's just woken up. He would work himself up then eventually would cry if I don't come. Usually starts on mantra cry then escalates to please-come cry. I would wait and hope he would go back to sleep but when it's close to half an hour, I don't want him to get OT especially close to WU time.

Sorry, about the last/afternoon nap. I allot 1.5-2hrs for nap and always try to resettle him back to sleep. But it's always fragmented to 2-3 naps. This afternoon it was 36+5+40mins. In the morning, it was 40+11+41mins. I make sure that each nap, he sleeps at least an hour in total. With this much day time sleep, could he still be OT? It's actually an improvement from waking exactly 30mins into the nap, but yes, he's still not connecting them independently.

I'll try thealmost hugging to settle. Do you sh/pat as well while doing this until he falls asleep?

We actually had a breakthrough last night. He slept for 9hrs straight!!! We went to a party before his bedtime and AT was 3.16, slept at 1950h. Woke up at 0450 to eat. He wouldn't  go back to sleep but I left him in the crib and he eventually fell asleep, no crying. But woke up again at 0620. I just left him til he was picked up at 0700. Could he possibly need more AT before BT? He was very drowsy already before 3h tonight though, we were still on our BT routine...

[ZanesOTmom]

Just an update. He slept 4.5hrs to eat last night then slept for another 6hrs. Woke up at 0640, picked up at 0700. AT was 3.15 before am nap, still wanting to play at 3h. That seems to be the magic AT as he slept for 45mins (I tried almost hugging in crib but he got more alert and started pushing and kicking me :-S). Once he's resettled (picked up then crib when drowsy, took 4mins) he slept another 1.15h and I had to wake him. AMAZING! Will try again tomorrow and hopefully this is not just a fluke. Maybe I can replicate in pm, we'll see. Maybe he's finally maturing sleep-wise? I've been waiting for this day to come!!!!

[ginger428]

I bet you have and some have said that close to 6 months was the breakthrough.  I hope it is the case for you!!!
Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if after a good night, he wants close to 3.15 AT.  I think you're doing beautifully by watching his cues and you're within his range of AT.  It's never to the min anyway, right? So glad for his great night, too.  Hope you get some rest!

You could definitely do a very quiet sh/patt if it doesn't bother him.

If he does escalate to a cry in the morning waiting for you within that 30 mins, please attend to him right away even if you don't pick him up.  You could just lay beside him but calmly say it's still night night time and keep things dark and quiet until wake up.  Then make a big fuss about a Good morning. At BW, we want to be sure that babies aren't left to cry alone as that induces stress and what Tracy Hogg believed to break a bond between baby and parent.

[ZanesOTmom]

Thank you so much for the support and encouragement. I absolutely agree with you in terms of not letting him cry. I honestly don't remember the last time he's done a real cry, it's usually mantra cry. I believe I have postpartum anxiety. Just the thought of my LO crying makes me feel sick, mantra or otherwise.

Which leads me to his naps. Not sure if I should be starting a new thread under naps. Please let me know if I should. He really won't connect naps on his own. I'm able to put him down awake then leave the room at bedtime (I know I shouldn't complain as a lot have the issue reversed) but not for naps. If I put him down on the crib after wind down, he starts to cry which I can't stand. This has been the case for as long as I can remember. So I carry and pat (sometimes rock but I try not to) until he's drowsy. He would still open his eyes one more time after I drop him on the crib then fall asleep. Then the fragmented naps start. My question is, is the only way to connect his naps  PU/PD (WTS hasn't worked)? I've done it a few times here and there but couldn't commit as the crying kills me. I've tried adjusting his AT, it's now up to 3.15 in am from 1.45 when I first started. He slept 2h straight once, probably to recover from OT.... his naps are still 30m for the most part. Not sure how else to tackle this. I'm always worried he's OT from all the fragmented naps and been APOPing more than I'd like when it's taking him a while to settle after the first 30m (fragmented) nap. Should I just accept the fact the he will likely not be able to connect naps and will just outgrow it (hopefully) in the future?

Btw, the 9h stretch was a fluke. He's back to 4-5h stretches then 5am NW. He can be resettled in the crib but would wake again around 6am. I let him be if he's quietly awake but if he's tiring himself out by kicking and slamming his limbs, I do pick him up to stay in bed with me til 7am and he ends up falling asleep. This is a no-no I know. oh he seems to only sleep on average, 10hrs at night, 10.5-11 if I APOP, then about 2-2.5h of fragmented daytime sleep. Am I accumulating OT with these numbers? I know I've come a long way, it just feels like no improvement in the last little while...

[ginger428]

Oh hun, so sorry to hear about the anxiety. I had it too and it was awful.  Our bodies are in hyper vigilant and defense mode almost constantly, Which makes every sleepless night and every cry harder. Have you spoken to a doctor about it?

As for the naps, since he just transitioned to two naps, it might be a little while before he settles into a rhythm. It seems like the latest pattern is a 4/5 feed? When does he wake before then?

What do you do if his naps are still 30 min? If either of his naps are only 30 min total, he probably meeds an early bedtime. Which is usual during transitions. Have you tried it at all?

[ZanesOTmom]

Thank you. Yes it's awful, I'm sorry you had to go through it too. I've just realized how bad it was but it's much improved now. I should let my doctor know...

In terms of feeds, you k ow I don't know anymore. I give it to him when he wakes up fussy. It's been after midnight the last 2 nights and around 4am (during those awesome long stretches!) the night before that. Is there any growth spurts I should know about aroubd 6mos? I'm thinking if some of the early waking may be hunger related.

If his nap is 30mins, I always resettle. It takes from 2mins to 20mins for him to go back to sleep. I always take up 1.5-2h between AT allotted for sleep. Most of the time he would get a total of 1h (fragmented) sleep each nap time. I'm just worried I'm accumulating OT because it's fragmented. It's very rare he won't sleep another half an hour or so after the first 30mins. In that case I just feed then do next nap a bit earlier and possibly early BT or capping CN. I've learned a lot!

Will it be a while before I have to extend his AT again? Im almost ready to accept this current routine, fragmented naps and EWs. But I don't want to be too comfortable in case I have to tweak it again really soon. He is 6months this weekend.

[ginger428]

Oh yes, 6 mo is a big growth spurt! It's also another developmental stage... solids/eating, physical development, mental, etc...

I think you're doing great... hang in there.

Here is a link to average A times:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=248483.0

[ZanesOTmom]

Still brainstorming here on how I can tweak LOs schedule. I was looking through others' routines for 6-12months and saw that my current routine is others' routine when their LO is 1-2 months older...
my question is, would it be counter productive if I decrease LO's A time? Im currently following 3h +/- 5mins. Naps are still fragmented and 1-2 NW with EW still. Although he's been sick with a cold this week so lots of APOP; he's been very clingy and need me for naps more. Really hoping this won't affect our progress in the long run.

[ginger428]

Oh poor thing... let's revisit when he's all better.  It's so hard to implement anything when they're ill... and at this age, he may change his needs even within the 2-4 weeks he's been ill and recovers. As soon as he's well, do your usual routine right away. Even now, you can always attempt the usual routine, then attend as needed.

[ZanesOTmom]

Sigh... hes now all better just a bit of cough left and perhapsteething - gnawing on teether the past week or so. His routine is still same with WU/PU 0700, AT 3+/-5-10min, aiming for at least an hour of sleep during nap time (still fragmented). I've been APOPing his naps the past 2-3 weeks and decided to tackle it by PUPD today. First nap was a bust and wouldn't work for nap extension. Ended up feeding then activity and watched sleepy cues. 2nd nap was also a bust - I've never seen nor heard him cry that much and that long. He was inconsolable. I ended up feeding as soon as he calmed down (took a long time), some AT then APOP. He won't let me put him down

He's an independent sleeper at night - dropped on crib awake and he will sleep within 15mins. Self settles as well and I only intervene if he doesn't settle and it's close to pick up time as I don't want him OT. My question is, would his night sleep be affected if I decided to leave his day routine as is - APOP if can't extend nap? I've tried WTS (both option 1 and 2), and I refuse to do PUPD again. It was traumatic for both of us. I've also tried decreasing AT to 2.40-45 and also increasing by 15-20m, didn't change his naps at all.

[ginger428]

Hi there,
I'm so sorry about that experience... it brings back memories for me when I cried as hard as my DS did when trying things that didn't work for him.

Let's post this in naps to see if we can get new eyes on lengthening them and aiming for independent sleep.  Usually, naps and night time sleep do not affect each other at this young age.

So, could you post your new EASY and questions on the naps board? Please describe how you are APOPing.

How are the NWs?

[ZanesOTmom]

Hi Ginger. Sorry took me a while to respond. I've been trying to figure out our routine still. Naps are still a disaster but we had a breakthrough over the weekend. He slept 1h20m and 1h30m on Saturday and Sunday respectively. Seems like I got the morning AT right - 3h15m. This is if I leave him be on his crib in the wee hours of the morning and then pick him up at 0645 or 0700; earlier if he's starting to get agitated/whine. Here's our (ideal) EASY:

PU/WU 0700
E 0730 then solids an hour later
A 3.15
S 1015-1200

E 1230
A 3-3.10 (still trying to figure this out)
S 1500-1845/1900

E 1730 then solids 1-1.5h later
A 3h
S 1930-2000

I don't want to jinx it but he's been sttn the past several nights. Waking up between 1-3:30am for NF. Then I would hear him sometimes at 0300 and at 0500 playing in his crib. I let him be until WU time unless he starts crying. At which point, he is difficult to settle in crib so I take him to bed with me which is also in the nursery.

Naps: I've been managing in forever by trying to put him down on his crib awake then rubbing his back or chest til he falls asleep (time varies from 1m to 15m). He then wakes up between 32-37min mark. I'm not trying WTS anymore, just hovering and trying to settle as soon as he stirs (rarely works) or picking him up and rocking. Most of the time, he's not very easy to settle and rather than waste time and have a later BT, I take him to bed with me to try for at least another hour of sleep. Like I mentioned earlier, I think I've figured out the AM AT. I still can't figure out the PM one though. I've tried 2.45-3.30. He's either UT or OT. I think I'll try for 3.10 for few days and see how that goes. I worry though that as I extend AT, his BT will get later and later. I've had to do EBT (as early as 1815h) few times the past week. I was very nervous but pleasantly surprised that he handled it well. He woke up at 0500 but slept easily when I took him to bed with me and then the rest of the day was routine. So he had lots of good nighttime sleep!

If you have any suggestion, please feel free. I'm wondering if I should be "capping" his nap. But then again, really he's only getting 2.5-3hrs of daytime sleep that's fragmented. Also, based on what I've read, I'm putting in more work on his PM nap as I do not want him OT for night sleep - which may be reason why he's been good at night (?). I would APOP (rock, take to bed with me and he sleeps on my arm; sometimes I put him back in crib asleep which may or may not work and he wake again) as needed to ensure he gets at least 1.5h sleep, especially in the afternoon. Is this correct? Please let me know if I should copy and paste this to the Naps section.

Thank you

[ZanesOTmom]

DS would nap for 32m on 3.15 (weekend 1.15-30m nap didn't happen again), so I increased AT to 3.20 in am. This is the 3rd day now; he napped 40m after that long of AT 2 days in a row so I'm holding to wait and see. I still find it hard to believe that he's not even 7mos and his AT is already this long. Should I keep extending?