2yo shenanigans at nap/BT, routine adjustment perhaps!?

[labrodyk]

Hi everyone, back again, although we never really recovered from the 18mo SR so here we are, a couple of weeks shy of turning 2 and we're just all over the place. I understand (and remember) this being a fairly standard predicament but I'm struggling with naps and bedtime resistance terribly and would love some advice on whether to stick it out, adjust routine, cap nap, etc etc. My 4yo sleeps about 11hours but his body clock is set to 6am or earlier so he is happy to be asleep by 7/7.30pm at the latest. As I am on my own for bedtime routine most nights, I need Miss A to fit into this rather than accept a long nap and push BT out.

She currently sleeps about 12hrs total (10 MAX overnight and up to 2hrs in the day). She still has terrible SA at both nap and bedtime where she screams for a couple of minutes as soon as I attempt to leave the room - regardless of time of nap or much/how little day sleep she gets. I have been so consistent and responsive but found that she cries more the longer I am in the room. I have no issue with sitting with her but this takes upwards of an hour, she doesn't just fall asleep quickly.

Our routine for some time has been:
WU: 6.30/7am
Nap: 1-3pm, no longer than 2 hours.
BT: 7.00/7.30 taking usually 30 minutes to fall asleep.

She is now waking earlier in the morning, (6 ish) and is very grumpy, tired, and extremely clingy. She could very well go down for her nap much earlier than 1pm. She also now takes much longer to fall asleep at bedtime, even though she is seemingly quite OT and the crying when I leave is continues.  ordinarily I wouldn't mind if she was awake for an hour chatting but since it starts with crying, it doesn't seem right.

What would be a realistic routine for my little munchkin to align with older brother BT of 7/730pm lights out. I expect that a longer night might only be achieved with a shorter nap? Or perhaps she needs the longer nap and shorter night. Eek, I'm not sure....

I am also medicating when I suspect teething but I can't feel or see a thing but I am offering Ibuprofen when all else fails but without much benefit.

Today's EASY:
WU: ? Before 6.30 - I found her playing in the lounge room! Returned her to bed and reiterated Gro Clock and staying in bed until 7.
Nap: 1.30 - 3.00 (I woke her).
Proceeded to have 3 giant tantrums between 5 and 7pm.
BT: 7.00; 7.40 asleep then woke again and sat up 10 minutes later.
^^ Cried when I left the room and refused to put sleeping bag on or white noise.

I moved her into the same room as her older brother approx 4 months ago, thinking it would help with any fears, but no change and now my older son is completely over sharing with her because she keeps him awake. Will have to put them back in their own rooms I think...

Appreciate any advice you may be able to offer.  Thanks in advance.

[creations]

Hi there, saw you didn't have any replies so I stopped by.

What would be a realistic routine for my little munchkin to align with older brother BT of 7/730pm lights out. I expect that a longer night might only be achieved with a shorter nap? Or perhaps she needs the longer nap and shorter night. Eek, I'm not sure....

Well, mine wouldn't do a longer night until his nap was totally gone and he couldn't cope with a shorter nap so I was stuck with long nap and short night.
I would think if you want to try a shorter nap then moving it later might be more helpful - not initially because she's waking early so appears to need her nap earlier - but longer term starting the nap later and ending it at the usual time would mean shorter nap and keeping the same A time before BT to maintain the BT alignment you want with both LOs.
I think you'd probably have to try it for a good couple of weeks though to really see if it could work out, and they might not be comfortable weeks.

Would you be able to do a later BT for her if they went back to different rooms?  Would you be able to put your older one down whilst she played, is there a safe place to put her for that??

Have you thought about external factors for the earlier waking?  Outside noises? Light?  Mine needs totally 100% black out because even a chink of the Summer sun gets him waking earlier and earlier and his mood deteriorates with the lack of sleep.

Not sure about the crying at BT and the SA.  Mine always had that at the birthday and half birthday so in a sense it sounds normal as she's approaching her birthday, but it seems this has never gone away so I'm not sure.  Does she cry for a long time even if you were to stay with her and lay down with her?  Is there any chance she doesn't like something in the room?  I don't know, maybe a laundry detergent on the bedding or an air freshener she doesn't like, a clock glowing or a toy?? Anything at all you can think of bothering her?

[labrodyk]

Thank you for stopping by Creations, I really appreciate it.

Even just 3 days of pushing nap and capping it at the same time was excruciatingly unbearable (we did 1.30-3). I've gone back to letting her sleep and will have to do a later night although how late should I be making it? I work at night (from home) so I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place. I can't quite visualise her EASY at all anymore and finding consistency difficult.

She doesn't cry for very long once I leave the room (max a minute) although if she is overtired she will cry and yell out intermittently until she falls asleep. Usually I know when she isn't going to settle and I reside myself to sitting at the end of her bed, no eye contact, until she is asleep but this is so rare that I don't mind. If I stay with her she chats and chats to herself and constantly sits up to check i'm still in the room and

We have hit the birthday developmental too and potentially teething because she's woken crying at 4.30am the last few mornings but managed to fall back to sleep until 7am without medicating. She's also started head banging the floor and breath holding during tantrums (which are reactions to minor things such as my husband wanting to hold her!) but I feel it is all being exacerbated by inconsistent sleep to a degree.

I have put the black out blinds on her window, the white noise is running.
I don't think it is the bedroom because we went away on holidays and she had a lovely room and she still did it. The last few days I have implemented one song played as I leave the room and it has made a small difference but not sure if it will work longterm.

Thank you for the hand holding and suggestions. Greatly appreciated.

[creations]

I've never planned BT to be later than 8pm. Yes we have had phases when he has refused to go to sleep so it's ended up later than that but I never plan later than that. 8pm BT and 6am/6.30am WU gives 10 - 10.5hrs night sleep which might be all you can get with a long nap.
You might find though that after the birthday development passes things just settle down again and BT can be earlier with less resistance. That's how it tends to be here.

[labrodyk]

thanks Creations, here is to hoping!!! Will try 8pm into bed.

Our easy yesterday was;

WU: 7.00
Nap: 1.10-3.30
BT: 7.30 - not asleep until 8.30

This is the third day where she's woken at around 3/4am crying. This morning was;
3.45 - woke crying but managed to resettle hersself
5.30 - woke again crying but couldn't get back to sleep quickly and dozed until 6.50, then slept until 7.30

She is crying and throwing a LOT of tantrums most of the day and I'm so unsure about what is going on....

[creations]

Sounds like teeth and tiredness.  You can't always sort out the tiredness though if teeth are disturbing sleep.
Have you tried a dream meds before you go to bed? See if that helps with those NWs?

[labrodyk]

Hi Creations!  Hoping you might be able to shed some light or steer me in the right direction....

Ever since daylight saving (summer time) happened about 4 days ago she has settled considerably with the crying at bedtime/naps. She will let me leave with me saying "i'll come back to check on you once you're asleep" and singing a little song whilst I'm in the kitchen.

co-inciding with this is her sleeping capacity and i'm unsure whether this is just the daylight saving change (we just winged it versus preparing for a few days/week prior) or developmental as we approach her 2nd birthday this coming weekend?

Wakeup has moved to between 8/8.30 (9.45 on the first morning of the time change!), nap has been strange in that two days she took a 2/2.5hr nap and then today she took 30 minutes to fall asleep and woke after an hour). BT 7.40, asleep 8.10pm.

She was ready for bed tonight, not overtired but had I pushed even that extra bit and stuck to 8 as we discussed (or keeping a 12hr day) she would have struggled I believe. Just trying to get a feel for what I should be doing given she was previously doing 10/10.5hrs MAX overnight. Should I be pushing a longer nap, waking earlier in the morning? I just want to get her as much sleep as she needs/wants whilst maintaining some level of structure to our day and avoid a super long A to bed which typically is not her thing.

[creations]

OK, honestly I have not totally understood what's happened recently with the clock changes, BT and WU changes and all...but...
if the later WU time is okay with you I'd just stick to a set nap and set BT and let her sleep longer or shorter naps as she pleases and just not worry if one day it is short.  She is going to be heading towards dropping that nap so it's okay for it to go shorter if she's happy with that.
I think now is a good time to set BT and nap time whenever you think it is suitable for you, your LO and the family based on what you need to happen (ie what time you need WU in the morning) because her body clock and sleep are already a bit erratic due to the clock changes so I'd take advantage of that.

[labrodyk]

I'm sorry Creations my message was complete babble and nonsensical... My brain is doesn't know what this thing called 'sleep' is, I'm so used to not having any of it! haha.
I guess I'm just trying to work out what I should be expecting of Miss A in regards to any routine/structure as it seems completely lost at present. Wakeup time has shifted a full 2 hours (daylight saving has porbably had some impact) but then of course our usual 1pm nap time (from a 6.30/7 WU) is not really working, as expected.

WU: 8.00
Nap: 1.15; 1.30-2.30
BT: 7.40; asleep 8.10

WU: 8.30
Nap: 1.10; not asleep until after 1.30 - 2.40
BT: 7.30; 8.45!!!!
^ back to crying when I left the room then sat up, talked, cried out until finally falling asleep...

I don't really want to wake her but with a BT at the latest of 8pm, where does that leave me do you think for nap time to ensure she is well rested and with not too long or short A time before nap/BT?

truly appreciate all your help, thank you SO much.

[creations]

Both those days it looks like she went to sleep for her nap at 1.30 so how about aim for that? An hour nap?
Maybe delay BT put down until more like 7.45 so she isn't laying awake too long with the aim of sleep at 8pm.  I know if I put mine down too early he would not just lay in bed happily awake he'd be annoyed about being in bed, he needed to be put down and then fall asleep within 3 - 5 mins, I always knew if his mantra went on longer than 10 mins he'd need a little help. (now he is older he will lay in bed longer but even now if it is too long without sleep he calls me back).

The nights are good though!!!  Getting 12hrs at night is amazing even if it isn't every night so I really wouldn't worry about the nap beign shorter or even capping it if that is necessary.

[labrodyk]

Thanks Creations!

Her 8.45 asleep BT last night resulted in an 8.30am WU.
Nap: 1.30; 1.40-2.20 then fell back to sleep very quickly until 3.00 when I woke her.
BT: 8.00; 8.45/9.00!!
^ was quieter when I left the room but still chatting 30 minutes later.
NW: 12.45-1.15. Crying out randomly
NW: 5.30 - 6.30. Restless and crying out.

I know I'm not consistent with BT but she is going to take a minimum of 30 minutes anyway (she always has, and her brother was the same until he dropped the nap completely) so i guess I'm shooting for the latest PD with the least fight. 8pm PD is my limit. With the 12 hour night, even if not consistently (regardless of how completely unlikely and out of the blue it is) I should cap at 1 hour nap with BT at 8? or 7.40 as you suggested? I'm also concerned about the NW'S...

[creations]

Long BTs drive me a bit batty but she's getting great sleep at the moment so I think if it was me I'd put up with it (and take myself a book and a cuppa to sit outside the room - done that before!).
I suppose if BT is getting too late then you could try capping the nap, I'd probably try at the 40 min when she comes out of a cycle rather than wait for the hour - up to you though.
or the other option would be to try to shift the whole day an hour or so earlier so
WU 7.30
nap 12.30
BT 7.30

or 7.40 as you suggested?

Honestly if you get a routine or even a day going well just ignore my suggestions.  I won't be at all offended. You have more experience than I do with LOs 

[labrodyk]

Okay, thank you!! I'm SO confused. I just don't want to head into an OT spiral. Considering sleep was quite disturbed last night with several night wakings and up earlier.

NW: 12.45-1.15. Crying out randomly
NW: 5.30 - 6.30. Restless and crying out.
WU: 8.10. I had to wake her for her birthday and swimming lessons.
Very cranky and cried through brunch at 10.30, rubbed breakfast through her hair/eyes.
Nap: didn't get her down until 2pm and she's been in bed, coming out of her room, taking her back for 1.5 hours until she finally fell asleep around 3.20.

[creations]

Ah Happy Birthday little girl

Sounds like she was excited for her birthday!!

I know it's hard going through these rough nights and days but it should calm down in a couple of weeks or so when she's got past the birthday developmental leaps.

[labrodyk]

Thanks Creations! I know. Feeling like a rubbish mum though as she has a double ear infection now...

Today she flatly refused her nap and I put her to bed at 7 - first night in forever she was asleep in a minute!!!
wu was 8.15am
Nap: 2.00; playing and mucking around, kept coming out of her room.
BT: 7.00 - 11hr day, asleep in a minute and no NWs.
 
WU: 7.36 12.5+ hours!!!
nap: 12.30; played for 30 minutes. i went ib, changed a dirtu nappy, put her back into bed she was asleep in seconds. 1-2.30
BT: 7.30; 8.10
^scremed at PD for me
NW: 12.3O crying out
NW: 6.30 crying out

WU: 8.00-ish
nap: 1.40; 2.00-3.15ish
BT: 7.20; 8.00

I don't think she will be able to sustain no nap long term though. and i cant quite work out the reason for the night wakings on days she has a nap? She's also extremely grumpy and throwing horrific tantrums.