Author Topic: 13 weeks, what is his A time??  (Read 2686 times)

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Offline Ciuci

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13 weeks, what is his A time??
« on: September 25, 2017, 14:32:23 pm »
I've posted before, unfortunately our naps situation hasn't improved. DS2 is 13 weeks and I have no clue what his A times are. He screams for anything between 20-50 min while I hold tight his arms from flapping, eventually he falls asleep and sleeps 30 min, wakes up crying. I'd say he's OT, I tried putting him down anyhing between 45 min and 2 hrs, tried following cues, but he still falls asleep very difficult and most times he wakes up 2-3 min after falling asleep and cries another 5-10 min before falling asleep exhausted again.

Today for example:
WU & E 7:45
S started at 9:03, he screamed until 10:09 when he fell asleep for 3 min, then after 20 more min of screaming I gave up

E 10:30
S started at 11:30, screamed until 12:00 when he slept 27 min

E 12:30
S started at 13:20, screamed until 14:00, slept 30 min

E 14:45
S started at 15:35, fell asleep at 16:10, slept 4 min, woke up crying and is still crying and fussing (16:24 now).

He sleeps in his own bed in our bedroom, we have a consistebt wind down routine: go upstairs, sing a particular song, put down blinds, "read" a book, and put in bed with white noise. But sometimes we have to mess him up when tending to DD1 eg car rides or buggy rides, he hates and fusses and we give pacifier to make him stop fussing.

I tried pacifier for sleeps, he doesn't take it easily (gag reaction) and then I rnd up being a slave for the pacifier, putting it bacck in every 3 min when he wakes up during his fitful 30 min sleep. He still goes down hard because he keeps gagging on the paci or dropping it and in the end sleeps worse than without. In the car I drive while keeping with one hand the paci in his mouth or replugging it hundreds of times (no exaggeration), stroller the same.

Any tips on figuring out his A time or enabling him to fall asleep easier? 1h of crying for 3 min sleep is really rock bottom :(
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 14:35:02 pm by Ciuci »

Offline becj86

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2017, 20:23:24 pm »
Hi, sorry you're both having such a rough time.

How long has this been happening? Sounds like he's very unhappy lying flat! How does he sleep at night?

Either way I think a visit to a doctor to make sure there's nothing physically wrong is essential. He could have an ear infection or reflux just to name 2.

To answer your question, at this age, 1.5hr is the typical A time and its worth starting there. Do you swaddle? Might be worth considering that as likely he may not like being held down for and hour either.

Have you tried a different paci? One that causes gagging is possibly too big for his mouth. I'd hate to have something in my mouth that induces gagging as I'm sure does LO.

Offline Ciuci

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2017, 05:48:06 am »
Hi, thanks for the reply!
It's been going on for the past approx 3 weeks, since I decided I cannot continue to carry him in a sling for all his 4-6 naps. Because of DD1 he got used to sleeping only in the sling, and if at first he could sleep even 3h there, it got progressively worse and worse, to the point where he could only sleep if I would walk with him OUTSIDE, and then he would always wake up just 30 min later. I cannot carry and walk around 6 kg of a baby all day long, he needs to sleep in his bed.

He has no reflux and no other physical problems. He's been to the doc since, and he is just fine. He has no problem lying flat on his activity mat or even in his bed looking at the carousel on top, and even straight after eating, so I can rule out reflux easily.

I used to swaddle, but when he cries before falling asleep he becomes so hysterical, he fights to break the swaddle and I end up holding his hands tight anyway, so I left the swaddle out. It didn't help with the jolts, either, he still wakes up fully and starts crying, no matter if I swaddle or keep my hand firmly on his arms.

We have 3 different pacifiers from 3 different producers, with different shapes. The gag reaction is the same and it takes a while before he accepts it, then spits it out and then starts fussing that it's gone. And repeat from the start, with no exaggeration even 50 times before he falls asleep in the car or stroller.

At night he used to sleep well, he started connecting first 4-5 hrsand then 2,5-3 hrs, meaning he would go down at 8:00pm (falling asleep at the breast), then would wake up roughly 2:00 am and 5:00 am and be up at 8:00 am for the day. Each time he would wake up, I would BF and he'd fall back asleep within 15-20 min, or he would fall back asleep on his own in his crib later.

Since he's sleeping so bad during the day, he started sleeping bad during the night, too. It takes him approx 1,5-2h to fall asleep (falls asleep at breast, I put him in his crib, he wakes up instantly.or within 5 min, we start from the top), is fast asleep finally at around 8:00 pm and then wakes up every max 2,5 h: usually 11:00 pm, 2:00 am, 3:30 am at which point I put him back to sleep on his belly and he sleeps like that from approx 4/4:30 - 8:00 am. (He's next to me and we have a monitor).

I know average A time is 1:30, that means I should start wind down at around 1:10 from when he wakes up, to allow to fall asleep by 1:30, right? I've tried starting at 1:10, 1:00, even 0:55, on the other end at 1:20 or 1:30, I tried starting after 1st yawn or after 3rd yawn, I tried waiting until he rubbed his eyes or starting when he was just staring into space... The problem is, we still have MININUM 30 min of hysterical crying before falling exhausted asleep, no matter when I start. I can't seem to find his "sweet spot!" It happened probably 2 times in the last 2 weeks that we did the pre-nap ritual and he fell quietly asleep within 5 min. I tried to replicate the conditions later, didn't work.

I'm out of ideas. And of patience...

Offline becj86

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2017, 08:30:49 am »
Could be worth dropping the ritual and just doing something simple like walk in at 1:28 A time, swaddle, PD in bed.

Sounds like he's possibly associating the bed as a bad place now - perhaps try sleeping him swaddled on the living room floor or something so he's not getting as upset...

He will be really overtired just from not sleeping well for weeks on end - stick with 1.5hr A by the clock, do away with the WD thing since its not working (doesn't work for every baby, often spirited ones love or hate it, sounds like he hates it).

I presume he's definitely not hungry?
I wonder about gas - how often is he feeding? When he's very upset, does he look for the breast? Is this upset usually starting approx. 1hr after a feed? Is he burping well?

What I find when a LO is so OT as this is that its easiest to take the training in steps -  get the sleeping happening in a reasonable routine (however you have to get LO to sleep), then sort out the independent sleep thing when the body is more rested and more used to sleeping properly.

Offline Ciuci

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2017, 10:56:55 am »
He doesn't have a negative association with the bed - in the mornings he plays happily alone there while I shower. I can rule out hunger, too - he does the same thing whether he last ate an hour or 15 min ago. If I take him at the breast for sleeping, I become the pacifier - the moment I take it out (and he's asleep), he wakes up within 3 min and searches for it again.

I can rule out gas as well. He was quite gassy/colicky in the beginning, but now it cannot be that he's playing happily on his activity mat or being calm, and the moment he goes in bed for sleeping all mother of gas is upon him ;)

I will try no ritual, even if I find that even more confusing, one moment he's playing happily on the mat and the next I plop him in bed.

It's like he's afraid of falling asleep or hates it...

Today so far:

WU & E 8:10
S he started giving signs at 8:55 already. At 9:00 I started, by 9:30 he was still screaming, I left him with my MIL because I had an appointment, he eventually slept 10:00-10:35 with an awakening at 10:10 when he resettled. That's 1:50 hrs A time!

E 11:20
S I started 12:00, swaddled, at 12:20 I managed to snap him out of his hysteria and he fell asleep quietly staring into space at 12:30 (1:55 hrs A time) but jolted & woke up 8 min later, went hysteric again... Despite the the swaddle I need to hold him down, he's squirming like hell.

When should I give up and how much later should I try again? He's proven he can scream for 1h with all the shhh pats in the world.

Offline becj86

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2017, 19:11:18 pm »
It sounds like something is really upsetting him. So it could 'just' be that he knows the winddown leads to naptime and isn't keen when he's undertired, hence the protest... then he he becomes overtired during the process. This is something I find happens with long wind downs sometimes. Some babies do great with them, some just don't.

He may be upset about the transition from one activity to another. You could try taking some item from his play activity to bed with him (remove once aslerp is needed for safety). My son took a spoon everywhere with him for a while. Have you introduced a lovey/comfort item? That is also worth a try.

Offline Ciuci

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2017, 08:37:45 am »
Could be what you wrote in your first paragraph. A lovey I think would be futile at this point. He's only just 3 months old, he barely knows his hands belong to him. Earliest I read that a lovey could be introduced with somewhat success and recognition is 4 months. I will try that soon.

Thanks... I will try anything that comes to mind. So far I see that if I put him on his belly he calms down sooner (5-30 min instead of 45-60). And I can only hope that time goes faster and he grows up.

Offline Ciuci

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2017, 03:32:52 am »
He started waking up happily to play at 5:00 am. He sleeps very badly from 8:00 pm to about 1:00/1:30 am, waking up 3-4 times in this interval, then manages to sleep one long cycle of about 3-4 hrs and is up chatting and playing at 5:00. I do manage to put him down again, takes about 45 min, and then he sleeps (on his belly and quite agitated due to all the noise around from DD1 getting ready for kindergarten) until 8:00.

I know that normally EW is a sign he needs to increase his A time. Considering he starts fussing that he's sleepy already at 1h and then ends up crying and finally falling asleep at around 1:55-2:00h, to what should I increase?? And he sleeps just 30 min, what A time could he possibly handle more?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 03:40:23 am by Ciuci »

Offline becj86

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2017, 06:35:36 am »
He's still about 3 months, yes? If so, really the aim is to get him to fall asleep around 1.5hr.

Can you resettle that 30min waking?

Offline Ciuci

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2017, 14:15:40 pm »
Nope, never.

He just turned 3 months. Last night he woke up 7 times within 10 hrs. Today we had to drive some 2h one way and 2h back, he cried the whole time and couldn't settle down. He ended up with 2:45 and 3:00 hrs A time :(

Offline becj86

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2017, 04:29:19 am »
Have you tried being in the room at 25min through the nap and settling him as he stirs rather than waiting til he's awake and really upset?

Offline Ciuci

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2017, 05:56:22 am »
Yup. Never managed to resettle. I also tried w2s at around 20-25 min, max it has brought was 45 min sleep.

Offline becj86

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2017, 09:54:51 am »
How are things going? Do you think there's pain involved? Its unusual to sleep this poorly.

Offline Ciuci

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2017, 11:02:20 am »
It cannot be that he's happily playing on the mat and has no pain, but the moment it's nap time and he goes in bed he suddenly feels pain. It's obviously something developmental.

We average 2hrs A time, out of which the last hour is screaming and crying. After a 30 min nap he's showing signa of tiredness already after 1h (fussiness), so I start the wind-down routine. Meanwhile I've tried full light, full dark, no reading, yes reading, changed song. The moment he's in bed he starts crying and gets more and more worked up. I've even tried Pupd, it takes ages for him to settle even in my arms. In the end due to whatever combination, he falls asleep at around 2 hrs.

Nights are still horrible, he can rarely link more than 2h sleep, sometimes up after only 10 min. I can hear him, he sleeps and suddenly starts fussing and getting worked up, within 10 sec he's fully awake and fussing more and more.

He also has 1h gaps in the night, when I BF after a waking and need to change his diaper, he's so awake afterwards and he stays up chatting ad blowing bubbles. I put him in bed and 50% of the time he settles within 30 min and goes peacefully to sleep on his own, 50% he starts getting worked up ao I take him and resettle either at the breast or on my shoulder.

I will continue to try various methods and can only hope that after the 4 month leap and probable sleep regression (can it get worse??) he will finally grow up mentally.

What annoys me is that he was able to sleep beautifully at night, in 5-3-3 cycles, with short BF breaks in-between and then back to bed. It all changed after the last leap which coincided with my decision to stop wearing him in the sling for every day nap.

Offline becj86

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2017, 19:36:27 pm »
He can be distracted though. I do wonder if the fussiness at 1hr is pain rather than sleepiness.

It may be worth reading through this to see if the symptoms ring a bell. https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=654.0
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 19:40:53 pm by becj86 »