Author Topic: 13 weeks, what is his A time??  (Read 2606 times)

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Offline jessmum46

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 20:08:54 pm »
Reading through I do wonder if there is more to this that 'just' sleep habits or development.  I know I'm not there and I take your point that it seems odd that he would be happy one minute then so upset when you take him for sleep - but I do think Bec has a very good point about distraction.  I had a happy, relaxed, lovely second baby....who was really bad at sleep.  It took us over a year to work out he had dairy and soya allergies - he was growing well, had no eczema, seemed happy enough until bedtime.  But in retrospect there were subtle clues that I put down to 'just him'/personality/being a second child who got lots of colds etc etc.  I'm clearly not saying that's the exact issue here!!  But worth just not dismissing outright :)

Otherwise, I would just encourage you that he is only 13/14 weeks.  For my two I noticed a big difference between 3 months and 4 months in terms of settling abilities.  Interestingly DD particularly would fight naps like crazy if I took her up UT....I wonder if your LO might be similar (I think Bec said similarly)....and I noticed this:

We average 2hrs A time, out of which the last hour is screaming and crying. After a 30 min nap he's showing signa of tiredness already after 1h (fussiness), so I start the wind-down routine.
I think even though he is showing tired signs, it is probably accumulated and he's not yet ready for a nap again.  I would just stick to taking him up at about 1h30, only shortening by a few mins if really needed after a short nap. 

What are you doing while he is crying for so long?  Are you using shh pat or similar?  Do you pick him up to calm him?
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Offline *Ali*

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2017, 22:04:37 pm »
What would happen if instead of putting him to bed you just left him lying under the mobile he likes to watch? Might he just fall asleep without the fuss? I used to do this with my first sometimes and just potter about the room until he fell asleep.

Maybe also consider letting him just fall asleep on the play mat in the living room or such. It's recommended that they sleep in the same room as you at this age anyway.

How many BFs is he having a day?
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Offline Ciuci

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2017, 01:28:03 am »
Thanks, i wrote above, I can easily rule out reflux.

Offline jessmum46

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2017, 16:55:39 pm »
Obviously you are there and know him best.  Please do remember though we are all just mums trying to help each other out.

There are quite a few other suggestions in the posts above - do you think any of them may help you?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 17:00:31 pm by jessmum46 »
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Offline creations

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2017, 08:42:45 am »
Hi there
I stopped by with a "fresh pair of eyes" to have a look at your issues.
it looks like the previous posters have covered pretty much everything already.

I'd like to pick up and go over a couple of points which I feel you might not have fully considered:
Thanks, i wrote above, I can easily rule out reflux.
Reflux and silent reflux cause huge huge problems for babies - more so when it is not recognised or diagnosed.  You did say you had been to the doc and LO is well as a result you have totally ruled out the possibility of reflux.  I would say it is a mistake to totally rule it out because it sounds very much like something (reflux or something else perhaps) is really bothering your baby and each of the previous posters has felt the same about the chance of reflux pain.
Left untreated reflux or silent reflux can cause permanent damage to the oesophagus (did you know this?) and a whole host of problems with development further down the line.  I would not dismiss the possibility until it has been thoroughly investigated.

I will tell you my experience: I took my LO to the doctor several times and was told each time my DS was fine, because he would smile at the doc and be a happy little chap.  The ladies here at BW encouraged me to explore further because although the doctors had ruled out reflux, my descriptions of my LOs sleep and behaviour were very easily recognised by this community.  I went back to the doctor and demanded a referral to the hospital to see a paediatrician.

We had to wait for the appointment to come through, by this time my baby had been suffering longer than I dare to think about.

Within 2 or 3 minutes of walking into the paediatricians office she diagnosed silent reflux and prescribed medication.
Just like that.  She said it was obvious.
The paediatrician only asked me a couple of questions and she said she could hear the reflux even before she held my baby.
I was astounded.  My DS was 5.5 months old by this point.
We started the medication and sure enough it worked.

I had further experience of the doctor telling me everything is fine and this community telling me the reflux was flaring up when my DS was older.  Again the community recognised the symptoms, the sleep problems, crying, behaviour etc and advised me to get the medication dose checked.  I took their advice and went to the doc to check. The doc said he was on the right dose, the max he could have and there was nothing wrong with my DS.
The ladies here said otherwise though and even explained to me the dosage they thought he should be on.  They had to convince me to explore this further because i had already been to the doctor (probably a few times).
I rang the paediatrician at the hospital, told her my DS's weight and symptoms and the dosage was immediately increased - he had been taking roughly one quarter of the dose he needed!  One quarter!
The new dose prescribed by the paediatrician matched exactly the dose the ladies here had worked out.
Guess what - on the new dose he did great.
(by the way, I did not and would never medicate my child purely on the advise of people on an on-line forum.  I waited until I had the go ahead and approval of our paediatrician.)

Listen - we are not doctors, we are not paediatricians, we are "just parents" but the wealth of knowledge brought together here, from parents all around the world, is a VAST amount of experience.  I would not dismiss it without thorough investigation.

I have given you our silent reflux story and I would like to pick up a couple of other points too.

In the car I drive while keeping with one hand the paci in his mouth or replugging it hundreds of times (no exaggeration), stroller the same.
From both yours and your LO's points of view I imagine this is just horrible.
Why not just accept he doesn't like a paci?  My DS did not take a paci, he would just push it from his mouth. At times when he was screaming blue murder my own mother blamed me for it because I wouldn't give him a paci but it wasn't that I wouldn't give him one it's that he didn't want one, the screaming was for something else.  A paci can be a source of comfort for some babies but others just do not want it.  Why persist so much?  I would just accept that the crying is not for the paci it is because of something else, discover what the something else is and you have no need for the paci or the hundreds of re-plugs or holding it in his mouth.
In my experience of having a LO who refused a paci I felt at times I had to work harder to find out what was bothering him rather than just being able to stop the crying with a paci.  There are benefits to having no paci though - you don't have to re-plug and you don't have the problem of weaning it later on. Much better for tooth development in the long run too.

A lovey I think would be futile at this point. He's only just 3 months old, he barely knows his hands belong to him. Earliest I read that a lovey could be introduced with somewhat success and recognition is 4 months.
There are plenty of people in this community who have successfully introduced a lovely at a younger age than you state.  My own LO had a lovely (a muslin square) from day 1.  Yes, day 1.  Now, I'm sure on day 1 he did not bond with his muslin, likely not on day 2 either, or 3...but I can tell you that within just a few weeks he absolutely associated his muslin with comfort.  He had his muslin for every sleep and by around 8 wks was falling to sleep independently in the cot in the family room for naps with the muslin snuggled right up to his face where he could feel and smell it (and me watching closely so that he was not in danger).  I removed the muslin from his bed each time he fell asleep so that it was not a danger, until he was much older when I knew he was capable of sleeping safely with it.  He still sleeps with a muslin now at 6 years old and takes a mini muslin to school in his pocket - it's his secret source of confidence and comfort.
I would give it a go.

There are quite a few suggestions on this thread.  I would suggest reading back and trying some of them out.
There are also a few questions too - if you can answer those the community would have a better understanding of what is going on and more suggestions and advice could come as a result.
Perhaps when you have a little time to spare you can re-read the full thread and consider each point?

Meanwhile - many hugs. There is clearly something bothering your LO and it is extremely hard work parenting a LO who cries so much and sleeps so little.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 08:49:21 am by creations »


Offline Ciuci

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2017, 19:16:39 pm »
Gosh, thanks so much for all the replies and ideas! Please don't think I don't appreciate it -- I do! I didn't mean to be so curt before, I was seriously sleep deprived and at my wits' end, I didn't realize there was a 2nd page with replies and suggestions. So, I'll try to take it one by one:

- reflux, even if silent: I've gone through the list of symptoms not only here, but on other websites as well. I still don't think it likely. He has maximum 15% of the symptoms, and those are related to the sleep, which can be also due to other things. The only times he spits out (throw up is never the question) is when I lay him on his belly right after a feed. Heck, even I would throw up if I did that, and I don't have reflux of any kind! Also, he doesn't seem to be more comfortable in an upright position - on the contrary. He seriously hates the car seat even when he's full, changed, freshly woken up and happy the second before (we're already at our 2nd car seat, we changed it just in case it was the position / squeeze he didn't like) and he appears to be quite disliking the bouncer as well. On the other hand, he loves laying on his back in bed under his mobile or on his activity mat under his toys, and laughs and is really happy when I put him there even if it's right after a feed.
But you know how it is - when more people start telling you about pink elephants, you start to see pink elephants everywhere. We have a doc appointment next Monday, I will bring it up, see what she thinks.

- I am also quite hopeful of the 4 months leap. My DD1 was also extremely colicky and fussy, I carried her in the sling the whole first 4 months, I would walk whole kilometers with her on my arm through the apartment... and at 4 months and a couple of days she suddenly stopped. It was like she became another child, almost overnight. I remember I was in a special therapy with her because she was screaming so much, and suddenly I felt it was pointless to go anymore - none of the symptoms or the behaviour from before applied anymore. So maybe her brother steps in her footprints...

- yesterday and today I managed to get his signals perfectly for 2 naps, when he fell asleep within 3 minutes, with just a very tiny amount of fussiness. Yesterday it was at 1:00 A time, after a very fitful 30 min sleep after his father tried to put him to sleep and didn't quite manage, and today it was the first nap, at 1:30 A time. Somehow this gives me hope. The rest of the naps he did in the sling both days, because we were out and about.

- when he's crying before falling asleep I stay with him the whole time and try various things (not all at once and not all at the same nap): shh/pat, shh/caress, caress only, no touch, sing, speak to him, change positions, pick up on my shoulder, swaddle... But he works himself up in such a hysteria, it's unbelievable. There's not one single thing that I can point out and say "aha, this works, he immediately calmed down when I did this".

- "What would happen if instead of putting him to bed you just left him lying under the mobile he likes to watch?" -- When he gets tired, he starts to fuss. The more tired he becomes, the more he fusses, he starts to cry out, first just a little, then more and more until it becomes real crying. If I just leave him there he just gets more and more worked up to the point of hysterics. I've started taking him upstairs for his nap in order to create a routine, clear steps he would associate with going to sleep.

- I BF him roughly every 2.5 hrs, which is in a very big part given by the EASY routine - not necessarily that he cries of hunger, but because I want to establish this routine of eating after he woke up. If I prolong (he can take it), I end up BF'ing right before sleep time, he then falls asleep at the breast, gets mad when I unplug him and take him to sleep without it... a whole mess.

- I've given up on the pacifier. It was just a useless prop - I was desperately trying him to accept it, and when he finally did, I would have to keep replugging it because he would cry that he'd dropped it. Totally nonsense.

- With DD1 I introduced a lovey at 5 months and up until 11 months she totally ignored it and didn't even acknowledge it. Granted, he's not her, so his lovey is already ordered and should arrive any day now.

Separately:
- I've noticed that sometimes at night it works when I don't resettle with the breast, but rather take him up on my shoulder and shh/pat. This is definitely a relief when he's waking up less than 1h apart, which is clearly not due to hunger. It's even worked a couple of times for the bedtime (after serious BF but still not able to fall deeply asleep because of OT), so maaaaybe it might work with naps as well (so far not).
- Amidst the crazy nights with waking every 2hrs or less he's managed in the last week two nights when he linked 5hrs. A bit of light at the end of the tunnel.
- Today he laughed for the first time :) Not smile, but real laugh. It's not sleep related but it did give me a boost :)

I hope I've covered everything. In short - 1) I will investigate the possibility of silent reflux, 2) I will try to pay more attention at his cues and hope I can time it right like I managed to yesterday and today, and 3) I will keep trying other methods like lovey or falling asleep on my shoulder in hopes I find a "switch".

Thank you again for all the support, you're all amazing mamas for keeping up this forum! I'll report back when I have something.

Offline becj86

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2017, 01:07:28 am »
Glad you're seeing some encouraging moments - they really do help!

I just wanted to say had I posted with my son's issues at this age, I'd have been told to consider reflux too. He actually was struggling with my oversupply and overactive letdown and I just realised I don't think I've posted about that for you - the thing that made me think of that was this:
I've noticed that sometimes at night it works when I don't resettle with the breast, but rather take him up on my shoulder and shh/pat. This is definitely a relief when he's waking up less than 1h apart, which is clearly not due to hunger.
Something that happens with oversupply/OALD is that LO gulps to cope with the milk flow and takes in air which turns into gas pain 1-1.5hr after a feed. They then look for the breast again because the act of feeding helps them pass the gas. Lots of really thorough burping after a feed as well as tummy massage to help move the gas through rather than feeding frequently can help a lot.

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63604.0

Offline Ciuci

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2017, 07:08:41 am »
Thanks! This really does happen, I hear him gulp air and I think "" :))) The problem is, he falls asleep so deeply after the feed that I can stay there and pat for 10 min and no burp will come out. He mostly burps right when he wakes up the next time.

I guess this can be solved only through time, as my let down settles and as he grows and learns to manage it.

PS. This morning for the first nap it's a failure. I think I took him too soon, he was UT and started crying in frustration, we've been trying to settle for 50 min including 2x taken into another room, read a book, changed scenery. By niw he's so OT he's not reacting to anything anymore, stays in his worked-out bubble.

Offline Ciuci

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2017, 06:22:08 am »
An update: Based on the described behaviour, Dr thinks it's very likely he has reflux. However, as long as he's drinking well and growing fine (which he is), there's no reason to subject him to a gastroscopy, as it would have no medical consequences. He says this improper closing of the aesophagus valve will correct itself within the first year and medical intervention would be the case only if he's completely miserable and not growing.

Meanwhile he started sleeping again in chunks of 2,5-3 hrs at night, with the odd 5 hrs chunk now and then. And during the day I am more aware of his signals and put him down at wround 1:30 A time and he falls asleep  without crying, within 2-5 minutes. It's been going on for a few days, I hope he finally made the click and understood that the bed is for sleeping and I am helping him fall asleep.

4 months leap coming up, let's see how things are afterwards ;)

Offline creations

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2017, 18:09:12 pm »
Today he laughed for the first time :) Not smile, but real laugh.
Oh how lovely :)  Those moments are just wonderful.

Meanwhile he started sleeping again in chunks of 2,5-3 hrs at night, with the odd 5 hrs chunk now and then. And during the day I am more aware of his signals and put him down at wround 1:30 A time and he falls asleep  without crying, within 2-5 minutes. It's been going on for a few days
That's a great update too!

Dr thinks it's very likely he has reflux. However, as long as he's drinking well and growing fine (which he is), there's no reason to subject him to a gastroscopy,
I just wanted to say with regards to this. My DS and very many (I would guess at most) of the LOs on this forum have not had a gastroscopy for reflux.  I agree there is no point in doing procedures like that unless absolutely necessary.  However, many LOs still benefit from reflux medication and there is no ned for a gastroscopy to be prescribed with medication.  Perhaps just keep it in mind as the doc has said it is likely reflux.
Another thing is that so many times people are told babies out grow reflux at 6 months or 12 months, and again many of us have had other experiences. My DS didn't even start his reflux meds until 5.5 months, he was not going to grow out of it within 2 wks, neither did he grow out of it at 12 months. He needed meds until 2yo.  Then he had a long period with no meds but we discovered he has reflux flare ups so for the last few years we have medicated during a flare up and then stopped the meds again when it passes.  He is 6yo now.  I know from support I've had on BW that others experience similar with their children of various ages too.


Offline *Ali*

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Re: 13 weeks, what is his A time??
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2017, 20:50:58 pm »
I actually didn't think it was good to leave reflux untreated though since the acid damages the oesophagus and can cause long term issues. Is this not a worry?

Glad the sleep has improved.
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