4.5 months still not extending naps

[mommykay410]

I am at my wits end with DS's nap issues.      Since 3 weeks old I have been putting him down awake, he falls asleep on his own, I don't rock him or nurse him to sleep, he doesn't take a pacifier.   Yet he still cannot make it through the 40 minute transition on his own for naps.  There are rare occasions when he does, like a few days the other week only for his morning nap, but never for his afternoon nap.  And now yesterday and today I've had to go in at 40/45 mins when he starts crying and am stuck there patting while he cries for over 30 minutes without a solid sign that he is going to settle back to sleep.  I used to just have to pat for a few minutes and he would settle back down to sleep for the rest of his nap.  He generally wakes up in the morning around 7:15/7:30, has an A time of around 2hr10min, sometimes a little longer, naps for 1.5 hrs (2 only if I'm really lucky), repeat for afternoon, then a 25 min catnap around 5/5:30, nurse for bed at 6:45 and asleep for the night by 7:30/7:45 if he is having trouble settling.  He had been having issues with night wakings for over a month, but finally got back to one waking the past few nights, and even slept straight through the night before last.  I'm not sure what else I can do to get him to make it past that 40 minute mark, but I cannot take this any longer.  I feel like this 4 month sleep regression has been lasting for 4 months.   

Update: His nap this morning was from 9:15-10:25ish with patting from 10 on.  I put him down at 12:45 for his afternoon nap and he fell asleep by 12:50, was up crying at 1:20 (obviously was OT from too long of an A, but I tried to push in hopes of being tired enough to sleep through the transition) I went up to pat at 1:20, tried to put on the white noise to help but nothing was doing it, so I gave in and picked him up at 1:50 and tried to rock him back to sleep (which I haven't done in months because he just looks at me with eyes wide open when I pick him up, so I've only been shh/patting him for months now) but he did fall back to sleep thankfully and I was able to lay him down in his crib at 2:30 when I was fairly sure he was sound asleep.  I'm glad I was able to get him back to sleep, but I cannot be rocking him back to sleep for any naps because I have 2 yo DD to tend to, and he almost always wakes her up from her nap early with his crying at transition.

[creations]

Hi there
Have you ried keeping the white noise running throughout the nap rather than turning it back on after he wakes mid-nap?
Have you tried (consistently) W2S where you go in and begin soothing with shush/pat or your usual method before he stirs or wakes rather than waiting for him to wake fully and cry out before going in?

The few days when he slept longer for his morning nap without you needing to resettle him, are you aware of anything that was different that day or the day or night before?  had he been more active? less active? had you had new toys or new guests to the house? Was the room warmer/cooler?  Had he slept differently in the night?  Was there perhaps anything different about you on those days?

[mommykay410]

Hi creations,
Thanks for your reply.  The only thing I haven't gotten around to trying yet that I should is W2S.  Is he not old enough yet to do the version where I slightly rouse him before he does on his own to help him connect cycles?  I'm afraid that if I go in and start shh/patting him before he starts to wake that I will be stuck there even longer or end up waking him too much if he would've possibly slept through on his own.  I think the white noise actually is too stimulating for him, so I'm not sure that I want to use it for the whole nap.  It seemed to work one day when I left it on a quiet volume instead of me having to shh for so long so I was able to leave the room, but yesterday when I had it running instead of my shhing while I was patting him it didn't do anything other than cause him to look around for where the noise was coming from and make him cry more. 

I can't seem to find a pattern with the days that he was able to sleep through. Some nights were horrible, other nights had one waking.  Actually the two days that he slept through for both of his naps were after the nights that he woke up at least 4 times.  Those days he had an A of 2 hrs before his nap, but he is definitely up from that now.  Some days he seems to be able to handle a longer A than others.  His sleepy cues are getting kind of hard to read some days.  Like yesterday he wasn't showing any sleepy cues and I kept him up too long and then he was crying at 30 mins and hard to resettle.  I just put him down for his nap now after 2hr20min of A time, so we'll see how it goes. 

Update:  For his morning nap today he fell asleep at 9:45/50 and I had to pat him at 10:20 and 10:30 and he slept til 11:20.  This patting was how it usually is, fairly short and I can leave the room, not like yesterday's disaster.  For his afternoon nap he went down at 1:35 and then at 2:05 cried quick but stopped before I got to his room and then was kicking his feet and blowing bubbles to himself for about 10 minutes before starting to mantra cry and then I went in at 2:20 to pat him, thankfully back asleep by 2:30.  He has never woken fully like that in the middle of naps before, so I'm guessing we have hit the 4 month regression on the head right now, even though I feel like we've been in it for weeks already.

[creations]

I'm afraid that if I go in and start shh/patting him before he starts to wake that I will be stuck there even longer or end up waking him too much if he would've possibly slept through on his own.

- You only do the W2S in cycles so you do it 3 days and hold off day 4 to see how he goes alone, if he wakes and cries on day 4 you resettle however you can then do another cycle of 3 days again. And repeat until he's got it.  At the moment you never know if he's going to do a long nap or not, mostly not, with this training you would (hopefully) at the end of it know that he was good for a full nap and you are free to your Y time instead of always being on edge.

- The method where you disturb LO is most suited to a LO who already knows how to connect cycles alone and is used for habitual waking which is a bit different to this.  Your LO doesn't seem to have learned he is supposed to sleep longer naps.  Linking cycles at night is different to linking in the day so it doesn't count that he can do a longer stretch at night.  The method of disturbing is likely to go something like this:
S for 30 min - W2S disturb - comes out of deep sleep and needs to begin a new cycle - doesn't know how - cries/calls for you - you go in to resettle.  Now you've been in twice and he slept even shorter than normal.
On a short nap of 40 mins there just isn't the time to do the disturbance W2S plus he still doesn't know what to do when he wakes or moves into the light sleep.
This method is better for older babies who know how to transition and for babies who find patting or a firm hand disturbing instead of soothing.  It's good for LOs who are sleeping say 1hr 20 instead of 2hrs as a new cycle can be kick started at around 1hr 10.

With the patting through the transition W2S method you are teaching him that he is safe at the 40 min mark and there is no need to fully wake to call for you.  The method is to begin 10 min before the usual wake up time and to continue until the next deep sleep state is reached. However if you are concerned about going in at 30 mins (which is what you'd have to do with the disturbing method anyway) and patting how about go in at 30 min and just ready yourself?  I have done this with mine and it worked great.  Go in at 30 min, quietly, sit by the cot, put your hand close, very close, but not on him.  Watch closely.  As soon as you see him begin to stir or breathing change (coming to lighter sleep and waking) put your hand on and begin shush/pat (the way you usually would), use as much as is needed and keep going until he is fully asleep. If it is only 5 mins then great - leave. If it takes longer then it takes longer.  The thing with this method is that the reassurance comes very very fast, no need to call out for help/mummy as you are already there.

I know you are hesitant, just try for one nap each day (the same nap each day) for a cycle or 2 and see what happens.

If the white noise isn't helpful just leave it off.  You do not necessarily need to shush at the W2S either - do what you feel he needs as you know him best, either shush/pat or just pat or even just a firm hand with a reassuring key phrase if you ever use one, "it's okay, sleepy time, go to sleep".

[mommykay410]

Thanks for the W2S overview.  I think I will try it starting tomorrow so that I have backup with DD over the weekend.  Of course now this morning he was able to sleep through the transition.  He woke up at 7:45 this morning, went down for nap around 10/10:05, and I did hear him rustling a bit around 10:45 but I'm not sure if he awakened fully like yesterday afternoon or not because I didn't look closely at the monitor, but he stayed quiet/asleep so no patting needed!  I'm sure it won't be the same for his afternoon nap since he always has issues with that one.  I'd like to use his afternoon nap to try W2S on since that's the one he has more consistent issues with, but the time when he usually wakes and needs to be patted is right when my DD also happens to wake (too early) from her nap and cries out quite loudly for me.  So if I'm in his room waiting for him to wake and starting to W2S, I'm likely going to have to run out quick to get her out of bed and get her occupied downstairs so I can go back up to him, which probably won't be very effective for the method.  Hoping I can try it out tomorrow.

[creations]

Who has the most problem with the nap?  I thought your DS was waking your DD with his mid nap crying?  If your DD is also waking early from nap even without being disturbed by DS maybe you need to go at this on two fronts - get in to her before she usually wakes and disturb her (stroke cheek or give a pat, just enough to make her stir slightly) so that she doesn't wake during the time your DS needs his W2S?

[mommykay410]

Ha yea I'd say it's a tie between the two of them for naptime.  DD is 2.5 yo and hasn't been giving me more than a half hour most days.  Today finally she slept for over an hour and woke happy instead of crying, but most days she wakes right around 30 minutes crying out for me, and there is no going back to sleep for her.  I'm torn between thinking it's near the end of her naps altogether, or super built up OT.  It's tough to say whether his noise is waking her or if she would have woken on her own those days. 

I didn't get in to to W2S with him today, but he make it through his morning nap until 1hr20min at which point I patting him quick and he continued to sleep for over 2 hours.  For his afternoon nap he woke at 45 mins and I let him go for a bit but then went in to pat and he went back to sleep for a total of just under 2 hours, so we were actually able to drop the evening catnap today which was nice. 

I guess it would be worth a try to do a bit of W2S with her if you think that would still work at her age?  I'm going to try it out on him tomorrow since DH will be home.

[creations]

I guess it would be worth a try to do a bit of W2S with her if you think that would still work at her age?  I'm going to try it out on him tomorrow since DH will be home.

Do you have another thread for her?  It would be better to keep the two LOs on two different threads to be honest but in brief I'd say yes W2S can still be very helpful at this age.  Some people use W2S with much older kids to help with night sleep.  From the sounds of it she could well be ready to just drop the nap.

You may be making it tricky for yourself trying to work on both LOs naps at the same time though. You could do with timing those naps differently so that you aren't needed in both rooms at once.

[mommykay410]

I don't have a thread going for her right now, I've just been dealing it for now.  But I can try to give W2S a go with her and see if it helps.  She seems to go for a while with 30 min naps then have a long one and a good night of sleep to make up for it, then back down again.  The trouble with timing their naps differently is that his always depends on what time he woke from his morning nap.  I guess I can try to get his W2S started and naps hopefully working and then deal with her if she is still doing the same.

[creations]

If you W2S his morning nap and get a longer one would that help with the timing so you can do DD in the afternoon perhaps?

For what it's worth it sounds like you're handing the nap drop well for DD, some people find it's okay to go with the flow or lots of short naps and then a long one just letting LO self regulate the sleep.  The difficulty is if she's waking upset so you can't spend that time with DS on his afternoon nap.

[mommykay410]

Today actually went really well thankfully!  Sometimes I swear just by posting on here it magically makes things get better haha.  I figured I would do the W2S for his afternoon nap just because that's the one he has the most trouble with and almost never sleeps through without patting.  And if I can get him to sleep through that one then I can tend to DD if she wakes from nap or actually get some time to myself if they both can sleep. 

DS slept through his whole morning nap on his own for just under 2 hours.  For his afternoon nap I think he was a bit OT/overstimulated since grandparents were here right before he went down, so I did have to pat him a bit to fall asleep.  But I went in at 25 minutes to do W2S and just put my hand on his chest when I heard him start to stir a bit.  He did open his eyes and sort of fully wake at 30 mins but he didn't make any noises and I could feel him relax as soon as he started breathing heavier.  I kept my hand on him for about 15 mins before leaving and he stayed asleep then for the rest of the 1.5 hr nap.  DD also slept longer for her nap again today, although didn't wake very happy but I don't think that was related to sleep.  But at least he was sleeping during the time she woke up so I was able to comfort her rather than leaving her on the couch with the phone games by herself.

[creations]

Good day

What you describe about the W2S sounds spot on. it doesn't keep them asleep but it does help them stay calm and reassured and move into that next cycle without needing to call for you. If you can do that for a few days you can then go in and just watch, hands off, if he fully wakes and calls get in there with a hand quickly before it escalates.  The continue W2S another few days. I do think this will help and you'll see some progress.

[mommykay410]

Today we are a bit off schedule since he was up 4 times last night and woke up at 7:05 this morning instead of his usual 7:30/45, but he did sleep through his morning nap although it was only 1hr20min.  I did do W2S again for his afternoon nap, which today he did cry out a bit twice but settled right back to sleep with a few pats and a quiet shh.  That nap was only 1hr20min also, so we are working with a short day today for whatever reason.  Hoping he can get back on his normal times tomorrow after a good night sleep tonight *fingers crossed*.

[mommykay410]

Ok so I've been through 2 cycles of W2S for his 2nd nap, 3 days on, 1 day off, 3 days on.  Not sure if it worked or not because he is just a mess in general with sleep right now it seems.  He turned 5 months this past weekend.  His nights have been a wreck since at least the end of August with a few good nights here and there.  I can post on the night waking board if you think that would be better, but hoping you can shed some light?  Here is the past couple days' EAS:

Sunday morning wakeup 7:15 (not really sure if this is when he was really awake because I was patting, he was kicking and fussing on and off from 6:10 on)
E 7:40
~1/2 Tbsp sweet potatoes @ 8:30 (I started solids just a few days ago with him because it seemed like he was hitting another growth spurt since he eats multiple times during the night when he wakes and eats consistently throughout the day too)
N 9:25-11 (pat him at 10:15)
E 11:05
N 1:25-3:05 (pat 2:15-2:40)
E 3:20
E 5
N in sling 5:30-6
E 6:55
S 7:25 (had to pat to settle)-8:10 pat, 8:40 pat 9:40 E
S 10:30 (had to pat to settle again) - 12:30 E
S 1:00-5:35 E
S 6:05-7:35
E 8:25 / 9:30 topup
N 10:00-11:25 (slept through!)
E 11:35
2Tbsp sweet potatoes 1:10
N 2:00-3:25 (slept through!)
E 3:40
E 6:40
S 7:20 (had to pat to settle)-8:20 pat, -10:20 E
S 10:55-1:55 E
S 2:30-4:35 E
laid him back down at 5:05, patted til 5:25, slept til 6:15 and cried out again, pat til 7:20 wakeup time
E 7:50
sweet potatoes 8:40
N 9:50-11:45 (cried at 11:05 and pat til 11:25)
E 11:50

That brings me up to right now.  The solids don't seem to be affecting him any differently, and he keeps opening his mouth for more even when they are gone, but I don't want to rush to give him too much just yet since he only started them last week.  I only feed him at night when he wakes if it's been close to 3 hours since the last time, and I make sure that he burps before I lay him back down because I know that gas is part of the issue.  Many times when he wakes crying I pick him up and burp him and then lay him back down and pat him til he is back to sleep.  I think the numerous night wakings is definitely not helping with his naps since his sleep is so choppy.  I just pushed his A to 2.30 a few days ago since he was at 2.15/20 for a while and thought maybe the early-ish wakings and shorter naps was due to that.  Thoughts?

[creations]

Looks like you've done the right thing to increase his A time up to 2hr 30 andhe's starting to sleep those naps without help that's great!!
On your EASY there is a day with a CN at at 5.30 - 6pm and the next day no CN but a long A time before BT.  I'm wondering if you just forgot to write the CN into your EASY or what the reason was for skipping it?  As this could have an impact on night sleep.

I would go easy on the solids for now, he is still young and it's advised to hold off on solids until 6 months.  Just be aware that solids can result in increased night feeds because they can get too full on solids to take enough milk in the day time hours so then need more milk at night for the fats/calories.  I know your LO has had bad nights already so this is perhaps not the case just now but thought I'd mention as sometimes people introduce solids hoping the nights will settle.

With regards the NWs, I'm not sure other than the CN which might have been missed leading to a long A time before BT which can impact.
Feel free to post in NWs if you would like some fresh eyes, someone else could see something I haven't thought of.

[mommykay410]

Well we haven't quite had the luck with naps the last 2 days  Actually worse than it's been.  Yesterday he woke at 7:40, went down for nap at 10:10 and I had to pat him from 10:55-11:20 and then again from 11:30-40, however after that he slept until 12:05.  His afternoon nap then was from 2:30-4:40 but again I had to pat from 3:20-3:30 and 3:45-50.  Last week when I was patting he would start crying at the 45/50 min mark and by the hour mark he would be settling back so I was able to leave soon after.  The past 2 days he has been crying harder at that 50 min mark and then again at an hour-10.  I'm grateful for the 2 hour naps it's resulting in but I do not enjoy being in his room for 40 minutes while he screams to try to fall back to sleep.  I do not pick him up at all when he is crying at those points because that will only result in him waking fully and taking even longer to get back to sleep with me having to rock him and not be able to put him down forever then (not conducive with DD, who has been sleeping better btw). 

As far as the catnap, he is able to drop it some days depending on how late his afternoon nap was.  If I'm not able to put him down for it by 5:30ish then I don't bother because it'll get to close to bedtime then.  I don't want to put him down for catnap at 6:00 (which would have been the case on the day I posted because he woke up from nap at 3:25) because then he will nap til 6:30 and that is when I take him up to start getting him ready for bed.  So his A would be less than an hour then if he fell asleep around 7:30 for bed.  Either that or he would end up going to sleep for the night even later, which then interferes with DD's bedtime.  Do you think I should still squeeze in a catnap on those days?  Or cap an earlier nap so he can still catnap?

I only gave him solids once yesterday in case the two servings was too much for him the previous day.  He is in the 80th %ile for height and weight so the ped said anytime between 4-6 months.  I was planning on holding off, but with this last growth spurt I figured it would be worth the try. 

The last two nights were a little better, at least I didn't have to pat him for so long to get him to settle.  He slept from 7:30-10, 10:30-4:30, and 5:30-7 last night.  And the previous night gave me a stretch from 11-6.  But I do miss the nights when he would go down at 7:30 and only wake once between 2-4. 

We'll see how today goes with hopefully making it through the naps on his own again.  That one day I posted was apparently a lucky fluke! 

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I know those naps don't feel great to you but you're doing really well.  There are a lot of people who struggle to get LO to sleep past 40 mins at this age due to the 4 month regression which often lasts until 6 months.  My own was sleeping 4 or 5 naps of 40 mins for the best part of two months so the W2S you are doing and him able to get 2hrs (despite it being disturbed) is really very good.

What is his mood like when you say it is nap time or begin the WD?  Does he act as though he doesn't want the nap at all?
See, you A times are quite high at 2hr 30 but I'm actually wondering if another 5 or 10 mins could help him transition without as much help from you.  I am cautious to suggest it really because as you know a too long A time can lead to OT but it might be worth a try for one of the A times (maybe the first) for a few days and see if it makes a difference.  It could also help to spread those 2 naps out and help avoid the tricky end to the day with the question of CN or not, without the CN the A time is too long really.

[mommykay410]

DD was one of those 40 minute nappers, so I am definitely thankful that I am able to get him to extend to a longer length for sure.  I am impatiently waiting for that 6 month mark to get here haha.  He is definitely tired when I go to put him up for nap....burrowing his head in my shoulder, rubbing eyes, fussy/doesn't want to be put down.  I don't think it would be wise to push longer than 2.30 A yet since I just moved him to that last week and he has exhibited some OT signs when I lay him down sometimes and I have to pat a bit to settle.  But he was at 2.15/20 for a while so I figured pushing to closer to 2.30 would help extend. 

Yesterday he slept through his morning nap without patting but he only slept 1.15, woke happy though.  I had to pat him for 20 mins during his afternoon nap for a total of 1.40, which led to needing a catnap for which I had to pat him to go down.  And he was wide awake at BT then so had a hard time settling down to sleep.  It was a rough beginning portion of the night...Fell asleep at 7:35 after patting since 7:20ish, had to pat/burp at 8:45-9, woke at 10:40 and fed him, down at 11:05, had to pat from 11:20-30 and 11:50-12:05, then slept til 5:50 when I fed him and laid him down at 6:05 but he kicked his legs until 6:40 when I had to go in and pat him until 6:55 when he settled back to sleep til wake up at 7:25. 

We are also definitely in a wonder week right now too, as he is constantly making the most annoying whining/complaining sound all day and doesn't want to be put down.   

[creations]

I'm really not sure if those NWs and the early hours restlessness are OT or UT.
Having the CN some days makes me think UT in the night but not having it some days makes me think OT during the night.
Sorry. I know that's no help to you.

I am impatiently waiting for that 6 month mark to get here

Yeah, I was the same, desperate for the 6 month mark.  Mine worked out to be 5.5 months though (from 3.5 - 5.5 months rather than 4 - 6 months) so in the end I had a pleasant surprise when he did a 2 hr nap without help one day.
I hope the same for you!!

[mommykay410]

Oh I so hope the same too!  I feel like I've been dealing with this since earlier than 3.5 months though and sometimes feel like I will never get a break lol.  The last 2 days were a disaster and all over the place.  I tried to put him down for catnap early the other night but that backfired because he didn't want to sleep then, and I wasn't going to waste 20 minutes patting him to sleep for a 15 min nap.  So I just got him up but then he fell asleep while I was nursing him before bed and that ended up being his catnap, which resulted in him being awake when I laid him in his crib for bed and he didn't end up falling asleep til 8:40.  Followed by numerous nightwakings and the early morning restlessness again.  Yesterday we were out of town so he was napping in the car and sling and car again and was all over the place.  I got a 6 hour stretch out of him last night which was nice, but I have no idea what time he actually woke up this morning since he was up at 4:30 to eat and then back to sleep at 5, but I heard him rustling around kicking his legs around 6 and was blowing bubbles to himself from 6:50-7:15 til I finally went and got him.  I'm going to go with 6:50 as his WU time for timing his first nap, so I'm hoping he isn't OT or UT for that matter at that time.  He screamed bloody murder yesterday when I was trying to nap him in the sling bc I think he was so super OT from the horrible night and CN in the car.  Not sure how I'm going to get him to adjust to the time change this coming weekend if he is waking up so early already after falling asleep later than normal.  Thanks for listening!  It helps to have someone to talk all this out with who gets it..unlike DH haha.

[creations]

Oh dear that sounds like a couple of tough days. I hope the next couple of days were better.

How did the clock change go for you?
Here if you want to post an EASY - or to just listen if you want to vent

[mommykay410]

Well the last few days were all over the place ha.  Some good points and some bad points.  The time change is the coming Sunday, which we would've been on track with the last 2 days because he slept in later than usual but then naps took that hope down the drain.  Last few days' EASY:

Sunday night
E 6:45
S (put down at 7:05, had to pat) 7:30-9:05 (burped him then fed him, then had to pat on and off to get him back to sleep til 10:25)
S 10:25-12:20 (fed again, then pat from 12:45-1)
S 1:05-4:30 (E)
S 5:05 (back to sleep on own finally)-8:10 Monday am (was kicking around at 7 but eyes were still closed)
E 8:40, some solids at 9:40
N 10:40-12:45 (slept through!)
E 12:55
N 3:15-4 (shh/pat for 15 mins but still crying to picked up to rock to extend, but just as he started to fall back to sleep for a few mins around 4:30 DD was crying for me and woke up him up)
E 4:55
E 6:50
S (down at 7:05, pat til 7:25, sleep til 9 then pat/burp/eat/pat til 9:45)
S 9:45-3:10 (E, down at 3:35 and tried to settle himself but had to pat/burp him at 4:10)
S 4:20-5:40 (pat, E one side, pat again at 6:10)
S 6:15-7:55 Tuesday morning
E 8:30
little solids 9:40
N 10:25-11:40 (had to pat at 11:05)
E 12:20
some solids 1:30
N 2:10-3:40 (slept through!)
E 3:50
E 4:45
E 6:45 (fell asleep while nursing)
S (down 7:05, had to pat) 7:30-8:15, pat
S 8:25-9:20, pat/burp/E/pat again back to sleep at 10

So yea, all over the place.  The only consistent things seem to be his ~9/9:30 pm waking, which is usually because he has to burp.  But after I burp him and try to lay him back down and pat him back to sleep he doesn't want to settle, so I just end up feeding him again before I go to bed myself, rather than spending 20 mins patting him and then him waking up shortly after I fall asleep wanting to eat.  And his early morning kicking around has been a usual occurrence lately. 

He has also not been able to fall asleep on his own at bedtime for weeks now.  I'm guessing this is either because of OT or UT depending on the night.  If I don't have time to squeeze in a CN then he falls asleep while nursing and then wakes up when I lay him in his crib.  So he is then too awake to sleep right away and settle himself and I get stuck patting him.  An issue there though is that he just wants to play with my hand while I'm trying to pat him and isn't really fully crying, just mostly a complaining sound but enough that he needs me since it starts up as soon as I take my hand away.  I try to GW pressure before he is asleep though.  Yesterday would have had the perfect A timing to BT if he would've slept his whole afternoon nap instead of me having to rock him (which I haven't done since he was a newborn but have had to do 3x now in the last few weeks because he couldn't settle back down with patting).  And today could've worked out for that too since he woke later than usual, but he didn't nap long enough in the morning.  It was nice to finally have a true Y in my EASY though during his afternoon nap because DD was asleep at the same time!  If it wasn't Halloween I might have tried to do a CN at 6:10 today and then just work on moving to the new time change.  Hoping he can sleep in again tomorrow and nap normal lengths so I can get him on track for that this weekend. 

Is my patting him to sleep at night becoming a prop issue?  I only pick him up if he is kicking his legs and fussing because that usually means he has to burp.  I never rock him to sleep at night, unless of course I can't help it with him falling asleep nursing.  I can't wait til he learns to roll over and can sleep on his belly to help alleviate some of his gas issues. 

I also am still swaddling him for naps, but not for night.  He has been fine without it at night for a couple months now.  But I'm afraid to transition out of it for naps until he is able to sleep through them because I don't need him playing with my hands when I have to pat him and that causing him to wake up more fully.  I did try to transition him out for naps a while ago, but went back to wrapping his arms in again because of his 45 min transition issues.  Not sure if this could be an issue at all?

[creations]

Sorry I am not seeing a great deal I can offer advice on there. The only things that really catch my eye are:
- the 2 long naps where he didn't need help came after a regular A time but less sleep, one he might have been dozing from 7am to 8am when you started to time the A so could have been more tired. The other came after a shorter nap so he could have been more tired.  You could try an extra 10 min on one of the A times and see if it helps??
- The difficulty getting to sleep at BT on the EASY you posted I'd probably put down to OT because the A time ends up long.  I'd just try to get him down as early as you can but expect it to be tricky.

Is my patting him to sleep at night becoming a prop issue?

Patting is not considered a prop. Yes some parents can get "caught" patting all day but this tends to be when they have forgotten that they need to move on, it's a tool not a total fix.  The key is to stay alert to how much LO needs you to do and only to do the  minimum, keeping your goal in mind is probably enough to stay focused - so just don't lull yourself with the patting and you'll be okay
I probably wouldn't have him playing with your hands though, LOs can use things to focus on to help them through the falling to sleep process, if playing with your hands helps him achieve the seven mile stare or the nodding part of falling to sleep then whenever you take your hand away there will be a problem.  His focus needs to be on something he is in control of which doesn't involve you. I would stop the hand playing cold turkey if it was me.  If that's too hard you could try to replace you hand with a toy/muslin/lovey by holding it and encouraging him to hold the lovey instead of your fingers.
I always return to patting (well for mine now it would be a head stroke or back rub) when help is needed.

But I'm afraid to transition out of it for naps until he is able to sleep through them because I don't need him playing with my hands when I have to pat him and that causing him to wake up more fully.  I did try to transition him out for naps a while ago, but went back to wrapping his arms in again because of his 45 min transition issues.  Not sure if this could be an issue at all?

If he needs his hands to self sooth at night then he would need his hands free to self sooth at naps (is my guess).

[mommykay410]

I will definitely try an extra 10 mins of A tomorrow morning before his first nap.  This morning he woke at 7:15 and napped 9:50-11:10ish but I was patting him from 10:55 to 11:10 with crying and no sign of going back to sleep.  I kept him up the normal A time for this nap I just put him down for so we'll see if he sleeps through or not.  I'm not getting my hopes up too high. 

When he starts playing with my hands at bedtime I pull them away right away because I don't want him to get used to falling asleep that way.  I try to lift my hand completely off of him when I pat rather than resting my wrist on him while I pat and that seems to work.  I just wish he would go back to falling asleep on his own at BT. 

I guess I should probably work toward getting his arms out of the swaddle for naps, although if I have to pat him then that makes it harder.  He doesn't really use his hands to help him fall asleep at night, no thumb/hand sucking, so I'm not sure if that'd make a difference at naps or not, but I'm scared to try yet with how inconsistent/unreliable his naps are.  Thinking I may hold off til that 6 month mark and hope the naps resolve before trying to get his arms out just for peace of mind right now.

[mommykay410]

Well last night was definitely the worst by far.     His 2nd nap yesterday was from 1:45-3:10ish and he didn't wake happy so I tried to pat him and see if he'd sleep longer but he didn't.  So I put him down for a catnap at 5:45 and had to pat him til 6 when he finally fell asleep til 6:25.  Since his CN was a half hr later than it normally is, and in prep for the time change, I took him up for bath and bed a half hr later too at 7, nursed him at 7:25, and laid him down at 7:40.  I had to pat him til 8 when he fell asleep, then again at 8:10.  He cried at 8:50 and I tried to pat him but he wasn't budging so I fed him again because he didn't seem to eat much at the last feed.  I had to pat him til 9:45, again at 9:50, again at 10 and he slept til 11:10 when I patted, fed, and patted again til 12.  Slept 12:05-1:25 when I patted him again til 2.  Slept 2-2:35 when I fed him.  Slept 3:15-6:05 when I fed him quick on one side and had to pat him til 6:45.  Slept til 7:35 wakeup, which is not as late as I would have liked it to be or thought it would be since he had such a horrible night and went to sleep later.  Hoping for long naps today to make up for it, otherwise he will be up for the day way too early on Sunday when the clocks fall back.

[creations]

Oh dear. I hope you had a better night last night.

[mommykay410]

No luck whatsoever    I'm at a complete loss, especially with nights.  At this point I'm hoping that the naps will clear themselves up within the next couple weeks when he hits the 6 month mark.  Some days he is good with making it through on his own, others I have to pat.  I've moved him to 2hr40min A time and that does seem to help sometimes.  I won't push it any longer yet, but I definitely need to get rid of the catnap.  I hadn't been putting him down for it because it was too close to BT but he was getting OT because I was trying to extend his day for the time change.  He was up at 6:15 that morning after but I nursed him back to sleep on purpose and staying with him on me in the rocking chair then til 7:15 so we were sort of back on track.

Nights are a complete mess.  I don't know if it's his eczema that makes him so uncomfortable and wakes him up or if it's schedule-related or if he is hungry.  I am getting in the bad habit of just feeding him if patting doesn't work fast enough because I just want to get back to sleep and don't want his crying to escalate and wake DD.  Last night I did give him a catnap because he woke from his afternoon nap at 3, so I napped him from 5:45 (had to pat him to sleep)-6:15.  I fed him at 7 and then laid him down and had to pat him to sleep again til 7:45.  He slept til 8:45, had to pat, slept til 9:40 and I fed him and then had to pat him back to sleep; slept 10:25-12:45 fed again and fell back to sleep on his own, slept 1:25-2:55 when he pooped so I changed him and fed him and had to pat him asleep again, slept 3:45-5:40 and I tried to pat but since it was getting close to an EW time I fed him a little to make sure he'd go back to sleep, slept from 6:05-7:10 with rustling around from 6:45 on. 

I don't think he is taking in enough food during the day which is contributing to the NWs, I think stemming from the 5:30ish wake and feed because he isn't hungry enough to eat again at 7:30/8, and if I wait too long to feed him for that first morning feed then I don't have time to give him his solids, and it gets too close to naptime which will then push his next feed back and he won't want to eat fully when he wakes from that nap.  I feel like it's just a vicious cycle that we will never get out of.   

Are these NWs part of the 4 month sleep regression also?  I keep hoping that they will just work themselves out one day on their own because there have been a few (very few) nights during these awful 2.5 months that he has done his normal one waking or slept all night through. 

[creations]

I would just focus on his milk feeds in the day and not worry at all if there is time for any solids or if you only have a short time, he's not even 6 months old yet so there is no hurry to get to the solids meals.
LOs who start feeding more at night can be because they didn't get enough milk in the day. also check you are not giving whole grains which are not advised for babies as it fills them too much and they then don't take the milk they need.

based on all the patting and resettling for naps and the disturbed nights too I can only really think of two options:
- wing it until he hits 6 months and hopefully this sleep regression passes (it was really very noticeable with my Lo when it passed...although we di also start reflux meds at the same time so that could have been the reason for the dramatic change)
- move to a 3hr A time 2 nap routine and just stick to it so that you do not have this problem at the end of teh day with long A times or trying to get a CN in.

Sorry not to have a simple answer for you.
If you would prefer to start a new thread to get fresh eyes that would be okay x

[mommykay410]

Thanks, yea I'm thinking I'm just going to end up waiting it out here because nothing seems to help change his pattern right now.  I don't know if he is ready to handle a 3 hr A just yet since he gets OT pretty quick and then I get stuck patting even more.  But I am not going to hold him at this 2.40 for very long before pushing again.  He didn't have a super long A to bed last night since he woke up from his afternoon nap just after 4, but still had a pretty awful night.  I thought he was going to be awake for the day at 6:20 this morning, but thankfully he went back to sleep til 8 which helps extend his day.  Although he only napped for an hour 10mins for his first nap despite not letting me put him down for a while prior to nap and yawning galore.  Hoping for a long one now this afternoon since I kept him up for normal A. 

I am only giving him a tiny bit of yams and apples for solids meals, and I don't push to fit them in if he nurses too late or I forget.  The only grain I ever gave DD was oats and that was after solids were well established, so I don't plan on giving them to him anytime soon either. 

If things don't get better with nights soon I will try posting on that board to see if anyone has any other ideas.   

[becj86]

Hi, just popping on as a new pair of eyes... how old is your LO now?

Just looking through the last few posts, it looks like he needs more A time - the restlessness of the early morning sleep, short AM naps, etc. suggest he needs a bit more in the AM.

That waking in the early evening within 3hr of BT is quite typical of OT or overstimulation at BT. I'm generally of the opinion that getting the daytime routine sorted resolves most night issues. waking a couple of times per night is still within the range of normal at this age, so I don't think he'd necessarily sleep 11-12hr solid either way.

Something that jumps out at me is that he's having a long night if he's going to bed at 7pm and not waking til 8am. This is either a great opportunity to drop the CN and just have two long naps and slowly make the day longer and the night shorter as he gets used to it - you could do that with A times of 2:50-3hr. I wonder if the length of the night is compromising one or both ends of the night. What EAS are you aiming for at the moment?

[mommykay410]

Hi becj, Thanks for popping in.  DS will be 6 months on the 21st.  I just moved him to a 3 hr A in the last few days since he wasn't making it through any naps anymore without patting in the middle and with the EW, and he wasn't showing sleepy cues as early either.  He always has been on the high end of the average A times for his age it seems.  I also dropped the CN completely, his last one was about a week ago and that was only because of super short naps that I wasn't able to extend that day.  I am having to pat him to fall asleep for naps everytime now though, which I'm thinking is a tad bit OT.  Yesterday was the first day that his 2nd nap ended close enough to BT to not be OT, waking at 4:55, so I was hopeful for a smooth night, but he was still super cranky during BT routine and I had to pat him to sleep like always.  He was always able to fall asleep independently for naps and nights since very young, but these last 2+ months he has gotten progressively worse.  I have been having to pat him to sleep at BT and every night waking for weeks now as he can't seem to settle on his own at all.  I'm pretty sure his main issue at night though is his eczema because he squirms to much and can't seem to get comfortable all night.  I'm in the process of trying to find a solution for that    He was still good about falling asleep on his own for naps within a few mins of being put down until a few days ago and now I'm having to pat him for those too.  I'm starting to worry that the patting is becoming a prop that he needs to fall asleep and stay asleep. 

His EAS for the last couple days:
(Nov. 12) WU 7:40 (rare lately to wake this late but I was glad because I figured it would help extend his day to not be OT at BT
E 8:20, apples 9:30
N 10:30-12:45 (fell asleep on own, had to pat from 11:05-11:20)
E 12:50 sweet potatoes 2:15
N 3:35-4:15 (had to pat to fall asleep, would've tried to extend for longer nap but had to go to parents' for dinner)
E 4:25
E 6:50 (fell asleep while nursing, had to pat him when laid him in crib)
S 7:35 (had to pat at 8:20, again at 8:40, again at 9:20 & 9:30)
E 9:45 (had to pat again when laid down after feed)
S 10:25-10:30 pat again
S 10:35-12:25 (fed him, down at 12:55, pat at 1:05-2:20 finally settled completely to sleep)
S 2:20-4:35 (fed him and patted back to sleep)
S 5:10-6:15 (pat again)
S 6:40-7:20 WU
Nov. 13
E 8:20, apples 9:30
N 10:20-12:20 (had to pat to sleep and at 11:05)
E 12:30, carrots 2:00
N 3:20-4:55 (had to pat to sleep and from 4-4:15)
E 5:15
E 6:50
S 7:30-9:10 (fed and pat back to sleep)
S 9:45-10 (pat)
S 10:05-1:30 (he woke up sometime between there and I had to pat him but I'm not sure what time bc I fell asleep on his floor)
E 1:30, down at 2, pat 2:15-2:45
S 2:45-4:15 (fed and pat back to sleep)
S 4:55-5:45 (pat)
S 5:55-6:40 (tried to nurse him back to sleep but he was too interested in looking at the window starting to get brighter with sunrise, so I laid him back in his crib to see if he'd fall back to sleep, not sure if he did but I did on his floor lol)
Nov. 14 WU ~7:05? That's when I heard him start making noises after laying him back in crib
E 8:10, pears 9:00
N 10:05-11:50 (had to pat to sleep and at 10:40)
E 12:05, sweet potatoes 1:10
N 2:45/50- sleeping now, had to pat him to sleep

I am definitely not expecting a full 11/12 hours straight at night, although he has done that about 3 times, but I'd love to go back to the one feeding at 3/4 or even two feedings at 10/11 and 3/4.  I thought DD was my bad sleeper, but boy was I wrong ha.  The last time he only woke once or twice just to eat was the beginning of October, which was just a lucky day I think, and he's been having these multiple NWs since the end of August.  I am crossing my fingers so tightly that he stops this mid-nap waking at 6 months like he's supposed to because I don't know how much more of this I can take.

[becj86]

He's rousing at 35min quite a bit - maybe that's the length of his sleep cycle... Generally an OT waking is easier to resettle.

Getting on top of his eczema will be a big part of helping him. Have you ever tried going to sleep when you're itchy? Its really hard!
I presume doc has you using lots of emollients and not washing with soaps, etc.  I suspect part of the reliance on patting may be that its a distraction from the itch, which he is needing when he gets to the transition between cycles also. The itch can be made much worse by being a little too hot - I assume you have him in cotton clothing, nothing synthetic to trap the heat and sweat.

Those wakings early in the night look like OT or OS.

Edited to add a link to some general advice re: eczema: https://www.rch.org.au/kidsinfo/fact_sheets/Eczema/

[mommykay410]

Thank you for the link!  I feel horrible for his itching at night.  I have been giving him a bath every 2 days and using an eczema wash in the tub and sometimes an oatmeal bath.  His room is the coolest one in the house since it is above the garage so he is definitely not hot at night.  I have him in cotton jammies and a sleep sack.  I have been using Cetaphil lotion in the morning and at bedtime, as well as vaseline on the scaly patches.  And the doctor has me using hydrocortisone when it is flared up and oozing.  Nothing seems to be taking away the itch though.  I have tried at least 4 different lotions/creams for it.  I am taking him to an allergist later this week to see if they can test for any food/environmental allergies/sensitivities that may be causing it to flare up.  It doesn't seem to bother him during the day at all or during naps. 

Yes, the 35 minute transition time seems to be his usual spot recently.  It used to be 40 mins, and at times he'd cry out at 50 mins or the 1 hr mark.  Usually if he makes it past the hour mark he is good, although there were a few days the other week that he'd cry at 1hr5 or 10 and have to pat him.  He actually settled himself and slept through his afternoon nap today for the first time in ages!  He did cry at the 35 min mark but by the time I got up the stairs he had stopped.  He was also kicking his legs at an hour but settled and stayed asleep til 4:35, so 1hr50min nap. 

I do think he gets OS at BT because of the combination of DD running around and wanting to be there, plus taking so long to lotion him and coat all his dry patches.     I will see how tonight goes now that he had a good afternoon nap.  With his A being around 3 hrs now, it will not be that long til his normal BT so fingers crossed!

[becj86]

What's the sleep sack made of? I know we had to go with a cotton blanket tucked right at the bottom of the bed (feet at the bottom of the bed, cotton blanket tucked to shoulder height) so there was no heat or sweat trapping and if you do the blanket that way, they tend to wriggle up and away from it.

Yay for a good nap! FX for a better night for you. I know how irritating those wakings so soon after BT are when you just need some me time.

I wonder if a cream or ointment may help more than the lotion... Here's some info about specific emollients: http://www.eczema.org/emollients  I'm just putting some ideas out there for you to consider/speak to your doctor about.

[mommykay410]

The sleep sack he is currently using is cotton.  I do have a fleece one for winter but I haven't used that one with him.  I just order a whole bunch of fleece pajamas for him for winter too since it's so cold in his room...guess I shouldn't use those then huh. 

I have used Eucerin eczema relief creme, Aveeno baby eczema nighttime balm, pure shea butter, coconut oil with frankincense essential oil, an organic eczema cream I got online, Aquaphor for dry patches, Cetaphil eczema calming lotion, and Vaseline for dry patches.  Multiple people have suggested the Cetaphil which is why I chose to try that one next, but that one is technically a lotion.  I may try Mustela next since that one specifically says "emollient" on it.  I'm not sure how good it is to keep changing up what I use either, but I want to find the best one for relieving the itch for him. 

Tonight I gave him a bath, lotioned, nursed him at 6:50 and he dozed toward the end but was awake when I laid him down.  He started fussing then crying as soon as I laid him down around 7:10 and I patted him on and off til he fell asleep at 7:30.  I've already had to pat him at 8:05 and 8:45.  Not looking too promising for tonight 

[becj86]

Can you ask the pharmacist re: a cream or ointment with no irritants like essential oils, etc. QV or cetaphil are the brands we would recommend here but I'm not sure in the US. You can probably get a cetaphil cream rather than a lotion, if you ask for it more specifically. They may not have it out on shelves much because it's thicker and less comfortable for the general public. Your DS has dry skin that's not forming a proper barrier as ours does so he needs the thicker one to keep his moisture in.

[mommykay410]

I had him at the allergist yesterday and he recommended using the Desonide the ped prescribed on all of the dry patches, not just when it's weeping like originally instructed.  I did that last night and this morning, and I can already see a difference in some areas of his skin.  I put a thin layer of that on first, then I put Eucerin cream over top (it's a bit thicker than the Cetaphil that I have so I figured I'd try that again for a bit).  I ordered Mustela emollient cream that should be here tomorrow so we'll see if that helps any.  The dr also suggested giving him Claritin to help take the edge off the itching.  I want to double check that with his ped first though because I don't want to just drug him up.  His face flared up again today, so that is not helping with his night sleep right now.  I had to pat him to sleep and he was out by 7:10, followed by patting again at 7:55, 8:20, feeding and patting at 8:40 because he wouldn't take a full feed at BT, and patting again at 9:25 

Last night was the best night we've had in weeks since he did a stretch from 9:30 when I patted him-2:30.  But the early morning hours from 4:30-7 were very disrupted, especially from 6-7. 

Naps have been a tad better some of the time.  He slept through his morning nap for 2 hrs straight the past two days which I am super thankful for.  I had to pat him at 35 today for his afternoon nap but he settled right away and slept for an hour 10.  Yesterday's afternoon nap was a disaster as he was OT most likely from the dr appt and couldn't settle to sleep quick enough, so I had to pat him to fall asleep then woke at 30 mins.  I patted him for 10 mins with no luck so ended up rocking him back to sleep but that didn't last very long.  Hoping we are almost out of this broken nap stage so that at least one aspect of his sleep can be restful. 

[becj86]

Hopefully the cream makes a difference and heals things up for him so you can maintain his skin better. Hugs xx this must be exhausting.

[mommykay410]

Hi ladies, I'm back    I figured I would just post back on this thread rather than starting a new one, as the issues are the same.  DS will be 7 months in 10 days and is still not consistently sleeping through nap transitions or falling asleep on his own at night.     We are up to around 3hr20-25 min A time which was just extended to that in the last couple days from 3hr15min.  I have been having to pat him to fall asleep for most naps because he can't settle himself, which I think is a tad OT.  Sometimes he will sleep through the nap, waking after 1hr10/20/40mins.  Other times I'm patting at 35 mins still.  He has been waking up from his afternoon nap somewhere around 4:45/5:15 depending when he woke from his morning nap.  His bedtime has remained the same though, so I give him a bath around 6:30 and then til I lotion him and get him dressed I nurse him around 7 or just before and he has been staying awake during that most nights unless he had a crappy pm nap, so I am laying him down wide awake and smiling for bed.  He is good for a few minutes and then he starts fussing, which I let go until it escalates and then I go in to shh/pat.  There was one night last week that he fell asleep on his own for bed but that was the only day he's done that in months.  It isn't usually very long that I have to pat him, he is asleep by 7:35.  But then he wakes after around 40 minutes, and then again around 9:30 and sometimes again around 10:15, at all of which times I go in to pat him or pick him up to burp him if he is kicking his legs from gas.  Gas seems to be a big culprit in his wakings, so I try to make sure he has a good burp before I lay him down but it doesn't seem to help.  He is usually good after the 10ish pat til somewhere between 1 and 4 when I nurse him and he falls back to sleep on his own.  But then somewhere around 5/6 he starts kicking his legs and fussing with gas again and he can't settle until he wakes for the day around 7-7:30.  So from 5 on I am in there shh/patting every so often til he wakes. 

So my questions are, what can I do to get him to fall asleep on his own at bedtime since he is clearly awake and it's not a nursing/prop issue?  And I'm guessing nap not falling asleep on his own is an A time issue, either OT or UT but his sleepy cues are pretty much nonexistent anymore so it's hard to tell which it is.  And I really thought that the transition patting would have resolved itself at 6 months, but apparently not.  Since I'm not rocking him or nursing him or holding him to sleep, what kind of sleep training could I even do to get him falling asleep independently? 

I think I have the eczema controlled right now, although his face is still not completely clear, but I've been swaddling his arms for both naps and night to stop him from scratching.  That is going to have to come to an end soon too though because he is rolling both ways during the day.  He doesn't roll at all at night, so I've been letting it go for now. 

Another issue is that he hasn't been nursing very much during the day, especially his first morning feed.  I can get him to eat on one side maybe, but rarely a full feed.  Even if his night feed was back at 1:00.  He just never seems to take a full feed during the day.  He is doing great with eating solids, but I don't give those to him til at least an hour after he nurses at least somewhat.  The only times he eats a good full milk feed is at bedtime and middle of the night. 

Any insights?

[becj86]

Gas can be a big issue, even at this age. My DS and I battled it for over a year. So, my suggestions are:
1. feed lying back a bit - is he gulping in air to cope with your milk flow? Sometimes letdown is too much for them and sometimes just the steady stream can be like drinking from a fire hose. have a look at biologicalnurturing.com - it has a video of laidback feeding and it made a huge difference for us.
2. burp well - for DS, I found he needed the heel of one hand pressing gently on his belly (not so much he'd regurgitate his milk but enough to encourage the milk back out (think of the balance one achieves when squeezing air out of a hot water bottle). That can be achieved sitting on your lap or lying on your arm.
3. Don't feed an hour after a feed when he's wanting to get the gas moving. Use a dummy if you are using one, do a tummy massage (an arch from one hip to the other, his right side to his left side encourages the gas along the large intestine and out + push his knees up into his belly firmly but not too hard)

He may be getting enough from one side. It may seem he's taking more in the evening because your supply is at its lowest then and he takes the second side. In the middle of the night, LO is often more relaxed and takes a good feed then for that reason.

He is good for a few minutes and then he starts fussing, which I let go until it escalates and then I go in to shh/pat.

He may need you to shush/pat when he's fussing rather than escalating. I think he might be telling you when he's the right amount of tired and once he's escalating, he's OT, hence your wakings through the evening. I think if you can do a week of shush/pat at fussing time and then maybe only shush, then move back to the door and shush when he's upset, you can get him sleeping independently in stages. Its maybe just too big a leap in skill for him at this point.

[mommykay410]

Thanks for the tips...I will try to do the shush/pat as soon as he starts fussing and gradually wean to just shh.  I've been trying to lighten up my hand and just shh more at night when I pat him so he doesn't get stuck on needing my touch, so hopefully that will do the trick. 

I will check out that video of the laidback feeding.  I think he is gulping at first, yes.  I ordered some probiotics for him hoping that might help with his immature gut since gas drops and gripe water haven't done anything for him at all, actually I think the gripe water makes it worse.  I guess he is getting enough from one side, although it really doesn't seem like he is feeding very long during the day at all, but he is happy so I guess he's getting what he needs. 

I do burp him as you described with my hand on his belly while he sits on my lap.  I switch between that and him over my shoulder until I get at least one good burp since sometimes the change of position helps him.  I also change his diaper between sides in the middle of the night and when he lays down flat and I get him back up again he burps another time or two.  So I think that is probably the issue after he eats the other side because I don't lay him down flat and get back up again like that, so it sits in there and gets stuck while he is sleeping.  I will try the tummy massage and see if that helps too. 

Can you clarify what you mean by

3. Don't feed an hour after a feed when he's wanting to get the gas moving.

[becj86]

Just some people will feed, then feed again when LO has gas because they often give off hunger cues to try to get more milk - when they feed, the rest of the gut moves a bit too so it can help move the gas along. Unfortunately for we who have babies who gulp in air as they feed, it can perpetuate the cycle of feed - gas - feed, etc.

[mommykay410]

O ok that makes sense.  Although I have been guilty of that in the past.  I used to feed him at the 10ish waking in hopes that he would sleep longer after that, as a sort of dreamfeed even though I never really did a true dreamfeed.  But the ped last week said that he shouldn't be eating in the middle of the night anymore at this age, (which I know is not true for BF LOs) so I decided to just pat him at that waking and not feed til the early morning hour waking, and that seems to be working. 

[becj86]

Oh yeah, and gripe water makes the little bubbles into fewer bigger bubbles so that is ok for some kids and not others.