4.5 months still not extending naps

[mommykay410]

Well we haven't quite had the luck with naps the last 2 days  Actually worse than it's been.  Yesterday he woke at 7:40, went down for nap at 10:10 and I had to pat him from 10:55-11:20 and then again from 11:30-40, however after that he slept until 12:05.  His afternoon nap then was from 2:30-4:40 but again I had to pat from 3:20-3:30 and 3:45-50.  Last week when I was patting he would start crying at the 45/50 min mark and by the hour mark he would be settling back so I was able to leave soon after.  The past 2 days he has been crying harder at that 50 min mark and then again at an hour-10.  I'm grateful for the 2 hour naps it's resulting in but I do not enjoy being in his room for 40 minutes while he screams to try to fall back to sleep.  I do not pick him up at all when he is crying at those points because that will only result in him waking fully and taking even longer to get back to sleep with me having to rock him and not be able to put him down forever then (not conducive with DD, who has been sleeping better btw). 

As far as the catnap, he is able to drop it some days depending on how late his afternoon nap was.  If I'm not able to put him down for it by 5:30ish then I don't bother because it'll get to close to bedtime then.  I don't want to put him down for catnap at 6:00 (which would have been the case on the day I posted because he woke up from nap at 3:25) because then he will nap til 6:30 and that is when I take him up to start getting him ready for bed.  So his A would be less than an hour then if he fell asleep around 7:30 for bed.  Either that or he would end up going to sleep for the night even later, which then interferes with DD's bedtime.  Do you think I should still squeeze in a catnap on those days?  Or cap an earlier nap so he can still catnap?

I only gave him solids once yesterday in case the two servings was too much for him the previous day.  He is in the 80th %ile for height and weight so the ped said anytime between 4-6 months.  I was planning on holding off, but with this last growth spurt I figured it would be worth the try. 

The last two nights were a little better, at least I didn't have to pat him for so long to get him to settle.  He slept from 7:30-10, 10:30-4:30, and 5:30-7 last night.  And the previous night gave me a stretch from 11-6.  But I do miss the nights when he would go down at 7:30 and only wake once between 2-4. 

We'll see how today goes with hopefully making it through the naps on his own again.  That one day I posted was apparently a lucky fluke! 

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I know those naps don't feel great to you but you're doing really well.  There are a lot of people who struggle to get LO to sleep past 40 mins at this age due to the 4 month regression which often lasts until 6 months.  My own was sleeping 4 or 5 naps of 40 mins for the best part of two months so the W2S you are doing and him able to get 2hrs (despite it being disturbed) is really very good.

What is his mood like when you say it is nap time or begin the WD?  Does he act as though he doesn't want the nap at all?
See, you A times are quite high at 2hr 30 but I'm actually wondering if another 5 or 10 mins could help him transition without as much help from you.  I am cautious to suggest it really because as you know a too long A time can lead to OT but it might be worth a try for one of the A times (maybe the first) for a few days and see if it makes a difference.  It could also help to spread those 2 naps out and help avoid the tricky end to the day with the question of CN or not, without the CN the A time is too long really.

[mommykay410]

DD was one of those 40 minute nappers, so I am definitely thankful that I am able to get him to extend to a longer length for sure.  I am impatiently waiting for that 6 month mark to get here haha.  He is definitely tired when I go to put him up for nap....burrowing his head in my shoulder, rubbing eyes, fussy/doesn't want to be put down.  I don't think it would be wise to push longer than 2.30 A yet since I just moved him to that last week and he has exhibited some OT signs when I lay him down sometimes and I have to pat a bit to settle.  But he was at 2.15/20 for a while so I figured pushing to closer to 2.30 would help extend. 

Yesterday he slept through his morning nap without patting but he only slept 1.15, woke happy though.  I had to pat him for 20 mins during his afternoon nap for a total of 1.40, which led to needing a catnap for which I had to pat him to go down.  And he was wide awake at BT then so had a hard time settling down to sleep.  It was a rough beginning portion of the night...Fell asleep at 7:35 after patting since 7:20ish, had to pat/burp at 8:45-9, woke at 10:40 and fed him, down at 11:05, had to pat from 11:20-30 and 11:50-12:05, then slept til 5:50 when I fed him and laid him down at 6:05 but he kicked his legs until 6:40 when I had to go in and pat him until 6:55 when he settled back to sleep til wake up at 7:25. 

We are also definitely in a wonder week right now too, as he is constantly making the most annoying whining/complaining sound all day and doesn't want to be put down.   

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I'm really not sure if those NWs and the early hours restlessness are OT or UT.
Having the CN some days makes me think UT in the night but not having it some days makes me think OT during the night.
Sorry. I know that's no help to you.

I am impatiently waiting for that 6 month mark to get here

Yeah, I was the same, desperate for the 6 month mark.  Mine worked out to be 5.5 months though (from 3.5 - 5.5 months rather than 4 - 6 months) so in the end I had a pleasant surprise when he did a 2 hr nap without help one day.
I hope the same for you!!

[mommykay410]

Oh I so hope the same too!  I feel like I've been dealing with this since earlier than 3.5 months though and sometimes feel like I will never get a break lol.  The last 2 days were a disaster and all over the place.  I tried to put him down for catnap early the other night but that backfired because he didn't want to sleep then, and I wasn't going to waste 20 minutes patting him to sleep for a 15 min nap.  So I just got him up but then he fell asleep while I was nursing him before bed and that ended up being his catnap, which resulted in him being awake when I laid him in his crib for bed and he didn't end up falling asleep til 8:40.  Followed by numerous nightwakings and the early morning restlessness again.  Yesterday we were out of town so he was napping in the car and sling and car again and was all over the place.  I got a 6 hour stretch out of him last night which was nice, but I have no idea what time he actually woke up this morning since he was up at 4:30 to eat and then back to sleep at 5, but I heard him rustling around kicking his legs around 6 and was blowing bubbles to himself from 6:50-7:15 til I finally went and got him.  I'm going to go with 6:50 as his WU time for timing his first nap, so I'm hoping he isn't OT or UT for that matter at that time.  He screamed bloody murder yesterday when I was trying to nap him in the sling bc I think he was so super OT from the horrible night and CN in the car.  Not sure how I'm going to get him to adjust to the time change this coming weekend if he is waking up so early already after falling asleep later than normal.  Thanks for listening!  It helps to have someone to talk all this out with who gets it..unlike DH haha.

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Oh dear that sounds like a couple of tough days. I hope the next couple of days were better.

How did the clock change go for you?
Here if you want to post an EASY - or to just listen if you want to vent

[mommykay410]

Well the last few days were all over the place ha.  Some good points and some bad points.  The time change is the coming Sunday, which we would've been on track with the last 2 days because he slept in later than usual but then naps took that hope down the drain.  Last few days' EASY:

Sunday night
E 6:45
S (put down at 7:05, had to pat) 7:30-9:05 (burped him then fed him, then had to pat on and off to get him back to sleep til 10:25)
S 10:25-12:20 (fed again, then pat from 12:45-1)
S 1:05-4:30 (E)
S 5:05 (back to sleep on own finally)-8:10 Monday am (was kicking around at 7 but eyes were still closed)
E 8:40, some solids at 9:40
N 10:40-12:45 (slept through!)
E 12:55
N 3:15-4 (shh/pat for 15 mins but still crying to picked up to rock to extend, but just as he started to fall back to sleep for a few mins around 4:30 DD was crying for me and woke up him up)
E 4:55
E 6:50
S (down at 7:05, pat til 7:25, sleep til 9 then pat/burp/eat/pat til 9:45)
S 9:45-3:10 (E, down at 3:35 and tried to settle himself but had to pat/burp him at 4:10)
S 4:20-5:40 (pat, E one side, pat again at 6:10)
S 6:15-7:55 Tuesday morning
E 8:30
little solids 9:40
N 10:25-11:40 (had to pat at 11:05)
E 12:20
some solids 1:30
N 2:10-3:40 (slept through!)
E 3:50
E 4:45
E 6:45 (fell asleep while nursing)
S (down 7:05, had to pat) 7:30-8:15, pat
S 8:25-9:20, pat/burp/E/pat again back to sleep at 10

So yea, all over the place.  The only consistent things seem to be his ~9/9:30 pm waking, which is usually because he has to burp.  But after I burp him and try to lay him back down and pat him back to sleep he doesn't want to settle, so I just end up feeding him again before I go to bed myself, rather than spending 20 mins patting him and then him waking up shortly after I fall asleep wanting to eat.  And his early morning kicking around has been a usual occurrence lately. 

He has also not been able to fall asleep on his own at bedtime for weeks now.  I'm guessing this is either because of OT or UT depending on the night.  If I don't have time to squeeze in a CN then he falls asleep while nursing and then wakes up when I lay him in his crib.  So he is then too awake to sleep right away and settle himself and I get stuck patting him.  An issue there though is that he just wants to play with my hand while I'm trying to pat him and isn't really fully crying, just mostly a complaining sound but enough that he needs me since it starts up as soon as I take my hand away.  I try to GW pressure before he is asleep though.  Yesterday would have had the perfect A timing to BT if he would've slept his whole afternoon nap instead of me having to rock him (which I haven't done since he was a newborn but have had to do 3x now in the last few weeks because he couldn't settle back down with patting).  And today could've worked out for that too since he woke later than usual, but he didn't nap long enough in the morning.  It was nice to finally have a true Y in my EASY though during his afternoon nap because DD was asleep at the same time!  If it wasn't Halloween I might have tried to do a CN at 6:10 today and then just work on moving to the new time change.  Hoping he can sleep in again tomorrow and nap normal lengths so I can get him on track for that this weekend. 

Is my patting him to sleep at night becoming a prop issue?  I only pick him up if he is kicking his legs and fussing because that usually means he has to burp.  I never rock him to sleep at night, unless of course I can't help it with him falling asleep nursing.  I can't wait til he learns to roll over and can sleep on his belly to help alleviate some of his gas issues. 

I also am still swaddling him for naps, but not for night.  He has been fine without it at night for a couple months now.  But I'm afraid to transition out of it for naps until he is able to sleep through them because I don't need him playing with my hands when I have to pat him and that causing him to wake up more fully.  I did try to transition him out for naps a while ago, but went back to wrapping his arms in again because of his 45 min transition issues.  Not sure if this could be an issue at all?

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Sorry I am not seeing a great deal I can offer advice on there. The only things that really catch my eye are:
- the 2 long naps where he didn't need help came after a regular A time but less sleep, one he might have been dozing from 7am to 8am when you started to time the A so could have been more tired. The other came after a shorter nap so he could have been more tired.  You could try an extra 10 min on one of the A times and see if it helps??
- The difficulty getting to sleep at BT on the EASY you posted I'd probably put down to OT because the A time ends up long.  I'd just try to get him down as early as you can but expect it to be tricky.

Is my patting him to sleep at night becoming a prop issue?

Patting is not considered a prop. Yes some parents can get "caught" patting all day but this tends to be when they have forgotten that they need to move on, it's a tool not a total fix.  The key is to stay alert to how much LO needs you to do and only to do the  minimum, keeping your goal in mind is probably enough to stay focused - so just don't lull yourself with the patting and you'll be okay
I probably wouldn't have him playing with your hands though, LOs can use things to focus on to help them through the falling to sleep process, if playing with your hands helps him achieve the seven mile stare or the nodding part of falling to sleep then whenever you take your hand away there will be a problem.  His focus needs to be on something he is in control of which doesn't involve you. I would stop the hand playing cold turkey if it was me.  If that's too hard you could try to replace you hand with a toy/muslin/lovey by holding it and encouraging him to hold the lovey instead of your fingers.
I always return to patting (well for mine now it would be a head stroke or back rub) when help is needed.

But I'm afraid to transition out of it for naps until he is able to sleep through them because I don't need him playing with my hands when I have to pat him and that causing him to wake up more fully.  I did try to transition him out for naps a while ago, but went back to wrapping his arms in again because of his 45 min transition issues.  Not sure if this could be an issue at all?

If he needs his hands to self sooth at night then he would need his hands free to self sooth at naps (is my guess).

[mommykay410]

I will definitely try an extra 10 mins of A tomorrow morning before his first nap.  This morning he woke at 7:15 and napped 9:50-11:10ish but I was patting him from 10:55 to 11:10 with crying and no sign of going back to sleep.  I kept him up the normal A time for this nap I just put him down for so we'll see if he sleeps through or not.  I'm not getting my hopes up too high. 

When he starts playing with my hands at bedtime I pull them away right away because I don't want him to get used to falling asleep that way.  I try to lift my hand completely off of him when I pat rather than resting my wrist on him while I pat and that seems to work.  I just wish he would go back to falling asleep on his own at BT. 

I guess I should probably work toward getting his arms out of the swaddle for naps, although if I have to pat him then that makes it harder.  He doesn't really use his hands to help him fall asleep at night, no thumb/hand sucking, so I'm not sure if that'd make a difference at naps or not, but I'm scared to try yet with how inconsistent/unreliable his naps are.  Thinking I may hold off til that 6 month mark and hope the naps resolve before trying to get his arms out just for peace of mind right now.

[mommykay410]

Well last night was definitely the worst by far.     His 2nd nap yesterday was from 1:45-3:10ish and he didn't wake happy so I tried to pat him and see if he'd sleep longer but he didn't.  So I put him down for a catnap at 5:45 and had to pat him til 6 when he finally fell asleep til 6:25.  Since his CN was a half hr later than it normally is, and in prep for the time change, I took him up for bath and bed a half hr later too at 7, nursed him at 7:25, and laid him down at 7:40.  I had to pat him til 8 when he fell asleep, then again at 8:10.  He cried at 8:50 and I tried to pat him but he wasn't budging so I fed him again because he didn't seem to eat much at the last feed.  I had to pat him til 9:45, again at 9:50, again at 10 and he slept til 11:10 when I patted, fed, and patted again til 12.  Slept 12:05-1:25 when I patted him again til 2.  Slept 2-2:35 when I fed him.  Slept 3:15-6:05 when I fed him quick on one side and had to pat him til 6:45.  Slept til 7:35 wakeup, which is not as late as I would have liked it to be or thought it would be since he had such a horrible night and went to sleep later.  Hoping for long naps today to make up for it, otherwise he will be up for the day way too early on Sunday when the clocks fall back.

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Oh dear. I hope you had a better night last night.

[mommykay410]

No luck whatsoever    I'm at a complete loss, especially with nights.  At this point I'm hoping that the naps will clear themselves up within the next couple weeks when he hits the 6 month mark.  Some days he is good with making it through on his own, others I have to pat.  I've moved him to 2hr40min A time and that does seem to help sometimes.  I won't push it any longer yet, but I definitely need to get rid of the catnap.  I hadn't been putting him down for it because it was too close to BT but he was getting OT because I was trying to extend his day for the time change.  He was up at 6:15 that morning after but I nursed him back to sleep on purpose and staying with him on me in the rocking chair then til 7:15 so we were sort of back on track.

Nights are a complete mess.  I don't know if it's his eczema that makes him so uncomfortable and wakes him up or if it's schedule-related or if he is hungry.  I am getting in the bad habit of just feeding him if patting doesn't work fast enough because I just want to get back to sleep and don't want his crying to escalate and wake DD.  Last night I did give him a catnap because he woke from his afternoon nap at 3, so I napped him from 5:45 (had to pat him to sleep)-6:15.  I fed him at 7 and then laid him down and had to pat him to sleep again til 7:45.  He slept til 8:45, had to pat, slept til 9:40 and I fed him and then had to pat him back to sleep; slept 10:25-12:45 fed again and fell back to sleep on his own, slept 1:25-2:55 when he pooped so I changed him and fed him and had to pat him asleep again, slept 3:45-5:40 and I tried to pat but since it was getting close to an EW time I fed him a little to make sure he'd go back to sleep, slept from 6:05-7:10 with rustling around from 6:45 on. 

I don't think he is taking in enough food during the day which is contributing to the NWs, I think stemming from the 5:30ish wake and feed because he isn't hungry enough to eat again at 7:30/8, and if I wait too long to feed him for that first morning feed then I don't have time to give him his solids, and it gets too close to naptime which will then push his next feed back and he won't want to eat fully when he wakes from that nap.  I feel like it's just a vicious cycle that we will never get out of.   

Are these NWs part of the 4 month sleep regression also?  I keep hoping that they will just work themselves out one day on their own because there have been a few (very few) nights during these awful 2.5 months that he has done his normal one waking or slept all night through. 

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I would just focus on his milk feeds in the day and not worry at all if there is time for any solids or if you only have a short time, he's not even 6 months old yet so there is no hurry to get to the solids meals.
LOs who start feeding more at night can be because they didn't get enough milk in the day. also check you are not giving whole grains which are not advised for babies as it fills them too much and they then don't take the milk they need.

based on all the patting and resettling for naps and the disturbed nights too I can only really think of two options:
- wing it until he hits 6 months and hopefully this sleep regression passes (it was really very noticeable with my Lo when it passed...although we di also start reflux meds at the same time so that could have been the reason for the dramatic change)
- move to a 3hr A time 2 nap routine and just stick to it so that you do not have this problem at the end of teh day with long A times or trying to get a CN in.

Sorry not to have a simple answer for you.
If you would prefer to start a new thread to get fresh eyes that would be okay x

[mommykay410]

Thanks, yea I'm thinking I'm just going to end up waiting it out here because nothing seems to help change his pattern right now.  I don't know if he is ready to handle a 3 hr A just yet since he gets OT pretty quick and then I get stuck patting even more.  But I am not going to hold him at this 2.40 for very long before pushing again.  He didn't have a super long A to bed last night since he woke up from his afternoon nap just after 4, but still had a pretty awful night.  I thought he was going to be awake for the day at 6:20 this morning, but thankfully he went back to sleep til 8 which helps extend his day.  Although he only napped for an hour 10mins for his first nap despite not letting me put him down for a while prior to nap and yawning galore.  Hoping for a long one now this afternoon since I kept him up for normal A. 

I am only giving him a tiny bit of yams and apples for solids meals, and I don't push to fit them in if he nurses too late or I forget.  The only grain I ever gave DD was oats and that was after solids were well established, so I don't plan on giving them to him anytime soon either. 

If things don't get better with nights soon I will try posting on that board to see if anyone has any other ideas.   

[becj86]

Hi, just popping on as a new pair of eyes... how old is your LO now?

Just looking through the last few posts, it looks like he needs more A time - the restlessness of the early morning sleep, short AM naps, etc. suggest he needs a bit more in the AM.

That waking in the early evening within 3hr of BT is quite typical of OT or overstimulation at BT. I'm generally of the opinion that getting the daytime routine sorted resolves most night issues. waking a couple of times per night is still within the range of normal at this age, so I don't think he'd necessarily sleep 11-12hr solid either way.

Something that jumps out at me is that he's having a long night if he's going to bed at 7pm and not waking til 8am. This is either a great opportunity to drop the CN and just have two long naps and slowly make the day longer and the night shorter as he gets used to it - you could do that with A times of 2:50-3hr. I wonder if the length of the night is compromising one or both ends of the night. What EAS are you aiming for at the moment?