Author Topic: 9mo very unsettled between 4-7am  (Read 4471 times)

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Offline CbabyJ

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9mo very unsettled between 4-7am
« on: October 20, 2017, 19:04:26 pm »
I've had battles with my LOs night wakings since birth- typically he wakes 2-4 times and is breastfed each time as he actually seems hungry and takes a good feed.  This past week I've managed to hold off feeding him till 1am which is amazing as he used to be hungry by 10pm most nights.  So he's been waking at 1 and 4am but then every 20-30mins.  He cries so I pick him up, quick cuddle and he falls asleep independently but only for a short time before getting up for the day.
I don't think he's cold or hungry so not sure what it could be.

He is a hit and miss independent sleeper- I don't feed to sleep - he is almost always fully awake when he goes to bed.  Naps have been super hard to time recently as he is either showing tired signs 2 hours after waking or none even after 3 hours.  Putting him down for naps has been a battle of late-  a lot of in crib soothing is required or he will just get wired and stressed out.

Any ideas ?

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Re: 9mo very unsettled between 4-7am
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2017, 13:17:24 pm »
Hi there
It could be that his A time is too short for him now.
Showing tired signs at 2hrs is more likely to be either boredom (change activity or environment see if he perks up) which can be confused with tired signs, or it can be after a LO is well rested then appear more sleep, or it can be tiredness due to having had a disturbed night.  The nights might not improve until the day time sleep is tweaked.
At 9 months the guidance A time is 3hr 30 but some are doing more than this, 4 hrs or even more in some cases.

Are you breast or bottle feeding?  If breast feeding he may still need those 2 night feeds.

How about in crease the A time to a minimum of 2hr 45 for a couple of days (so not napping at 2hrs, change the scene instead) and then increasing to minimum 3hrs A before all sleeps for another couple of days.
On a consistent 3hr A time routine he might do better with going down for naps and it could improve his naps and night sleep.
If those issues are not resolved within a couple of days I'd increase the A time again to 3hr 15 on all A times and then perhaps another 15 mins the next day. So in around a week or so you will have shifted in steps up to 3hr 30 A time.
What do you think?


Offline CbabyJ

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Re: 9mo very unsettled between 4-7am
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2017, 16:01:57 pm »
I should have been more clear about his awake times- I was using around 2.75hrs in the morning and 3 in the afternoon but it is hard to go by his tired signs as they are sometimes completely absent.
 Yes I do breastfeed and I know he should be sleeping through by now.  I'm trying to get him to eat more during the day to both milk and solids. With breastfeeding he only feeds well when in his room in the dark with absolutely no sounds in the house -"sigh".

With such long awake times- what do you recommend for the wake time before bed?  I find he again is all over the place- it's usually about 3.5 hrs but he sometimes goes down easy and sometimes he needs a lot of help settling in the crib. 

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Re: 9mo very unsettled between 4-7am
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2017, 09:37:25 am »
it is hard to go by his tired signs as they are sometimes completely absent.
Tired signs can be very hard to follow at this age which is why I am suggesting the change of scene and the gradual increase of A times over a week up to a more suitable time of 3hr 30 on all A times.

Yes I do breastfeed and I know he should be sleeping through by now.
As I mentioned above it is normal for a BF baby to have 2 feeds at night at this age.

I'm trying to get him to eat more during the day to both milk and solids.
This might be impacting on the night sleep and night feeds. Can you post your recent EASY showing the actual times things happened please?  Include all sleeps, feeds, milk and solids, and what/how much solids.
It is well within the range of normal for LOs this age not to take very much in the way of solids. Milk is still their primary food until 12 months old and very many LOs don't take much more than a little taste of solids at 9 months, it will pick up over the coming months.  The approach with solids at this point would be to offer a range of healthy family meals 3 times per day but not to expect LO to take a large meal.  He will be exposed to the various tastes and textures of food without reduction in the milk.

With such long awake times- what do you recommend for the wake time before bed?
The A times are no so long really, I am suggesting guidance A times for age. Some LOs are on much longer A times at this age.  Your LO may need longer than I have suggested but that is hard to know until we see how this A time works out.
I recommend all A times increase as per above in steps up to 3hr 30.  if you already do 3hr 30 before BT leave it at that.



Offline CbabyJ

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Re: 9mo very unsettled between 4-7am
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2017, 19:13:14 pm »
So this is my easy: Yesterday-
Awake 725 - super late for him but he had a big vomit episode at bedtime so he wasn't in bed till 830.  That night he had night feeds at 12 and 5.  Plus a few wake ups before 725 where I just held him quick.
E BM at 725 - not much - very usual
E solids 830 - tiny amount due to caution with the vomit.  Applesauce and oatmeal plus pear slices
S attempt crib at 950- needed help, was upset,  fell asleep at 1005 - 1145
E BM 1145- big feed still sleepy from waking up
E solids 130.  Toast and veggies
E BM 245
S 330-410 in carrier due to going for a walk with the family
E solids 515.  Sweet potato, savoury muffin, banana
E BM at bedtime 645
In bed at 710 - seemed fairly tired.  Absolute meltdown as soon as hit the crib.  I tried to get husband to settle but this went very badly.  He took a longtime to calm, eventually calming and sleeping around 730
NW at 1130(no feed), 230(feed), 330 (no feed), 520(feed).  Woke at 625 upset so tried to resettle but gave up and up for the day

Awake 625
E BM 625
E solids two tablespoons of oatmeal plus fruit on the side
E BM 915 - not much
S tried to put down at 935- happy in crib for ten mins then got upset-finally down at 1005  awake upset at 1050
E BM 1050
E solids 1230 - 1.5 tablespoons of lentil soup, tiny mini frittata, a few grapes
E BM 130
S In crib at 2- started rubbing eyes just ten but could have been the dark room. After ten mins still moaning/odd cry. Went in rubbed his back- calmed down- asleep at 215.  Woke at 245.  Happy for a couple of mins then a meltdown followed
Terrible nap day! 

He wasn't always this bad-  today is probably the worst day ever.

I am at my wits end- I am exhausted and stressed- I also have a 3 year old at home.  And after nine months of I only a couple of hours sleep at a time along with a bottle reluctant baby -I am ready to give up.  Naps have been good which has been a lifesaver now there is nothing working.

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Re: 9mo very unsettled between 4-7am
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2017, 19:54:51 pm »
he had a big vomit episode at bedtime so he wasn't in bed till 830
What was the reason for the vomit episode?  Food? Reflux? Virus?  Is he well now?

I looks like you could get a slightly better result on naps with an increased consistency to the A times. There is an A time there of under 2hr 30, I'm not surprised he fought the nap. Looks like you're giving yourself a battle because he is UT for the nap.  Another time however he doesn't sleep until 3h 45 which surprises me as it seemed you felt 3hr 30 was long (but perhaps I have misunderstood you).  He may have been OT by this nap time.

With regard to the NWs.  What happens if you just feed at 11.30 instead of resettling?  There is a 7hr 30 length between E times from BT E to the NF at 2.30am. If it was me I'd want that 7hr 30 to run straight when I was asleep, feeding at 11.30 could give you until 7am without the need to feed again.  There's a chance. I'd try it.

With regards solids.  It looks like he's taking lots!  Tummies are tiny at this age so really a couple of tablespoons is about the max a tummy can take, to be able to take soup plus a mini frittata plus fruit in one sitting is a pretty big appetite!  I really wouldn't be pushing for more solids to be taken in one sitting.
Some of the milk feeds I didn't quite understand, like feeding at 6.25am and again at 9.15am  You said you are not feeding to sleep so that isn't the reason, so why?  It is less than 3hrs between milk feeds.  As solids look well established I would say he can probably go more like 5hr between one or two of his milk feeds because teh solids are coming between. It doesn't mean reducing the number of feeds in the day (still 4 plus NF) it just means letting him get properly hungry for his milk and feeding after the nap rather than before.  Does that make sense?
Does the milk make him gassy? refluxy?  I'm wondering if that's the reason he wakes more in the night after the NFs?


Offline CbabyJ

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Re: 9mo very unsettled between 4-7am
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2017, 20:19:33 pm »
He used to wake around 10-10-30 and I fed then. After this he was up every 3-4 hours wanting a feed.    So the fact I've been able to put this off until 1-2 is a mega victory but maybe I'm wrong.
As for the multiple feeds- it's a hang up from trying to get him to gain weight.  I want to give him an opportunity to get as much milk as possible, hence feeding him lots.  He's so distracted even if I've had 6 hours between day feeds that I feel that I have to feed often.   If I wait till after nap then I worry that as he was distracted for his morning feed he will be too hungry for a good nap.

With the A times I clearly am not having success with 3hrs 15 but should I stick with it? 

As for the vomit - no idea.  He went through a random vomiting phase when I first started solids but that went away.

WTO solids-  he really doesn't eat a ton.  With my first he ate probably 4-5 tablespoons plus finger foods each meal. And slept through the night at this age. 

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Re: 9mo very unsettled between 4-7am
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2017, 20:38:03 pm »
With the A times I clearly am not having success with 3hrs 15 but should I stick with it? 
Sorry I don't see on your EASY where you have been consistently giving 3hr 15 for all A times.
In your post yesterday you said you were giving 2hr 45 min in the morning and 3hr in the afternoon but the EASY I am looking at seems like less than 2hr 30 A time in the morning and 3hr 45 in the afternoon.
It seems a little early to say 3hr 15 isn't working if it hasn't yet been offered.


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Re: 9mo very unsettled between 4-7am
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2017, 20:55:24 pm »
I see your point on yesterday but today it's been attempted at 3hrs 15.  The only way he's gone to sleep either today or yesterday is with me soothing him.  I go in once I think him self soothing is a lost cause so depends on how long that takes. 
I will keep going and hope for longer naps. 
Thanks for your help- I really appreciate it.  I feel so at a loss right now.

Offline ginger428

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Re: 9mo very unsettled between 4-7am
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2017, 00:15:01 am »
Hi CbabyJ,

I know it can be so frustrating and hard for you with such lack of sleep.  I agree with Creations on all points.. my DS gave me such a hard time with sleep and not taking the bottle so I was also extremely exhausted. And isn't it amazing how different one child can be from the next!  It takes time to figure out their sleep needs but with some effort, you can and it's worth it! Adjusting routines are such a trial and error thing, but it pays off! The thing about awake times and routines is that you really have to stick with it for about 3-4 days to see if it can be ruled out.  Of course there are other factors that weigh in and need to be eliminated as issues, too.

I see about the weight gain...if the last weigh in at doctor's office is fine, then I would proceed with a set routine and feeding schedule appropriate for his age and see if that helps.  We want to try to make all things consistent as best as possible... until we can figure this out.

Did he vomit after crying? How often does this occur?

Like Creations said, sleep cues are hard to read at 9MO. Sticking to 3.5 hrs between naps might help him elongate his naps and not fight them so much.  It could take a week or so if it's a huge adjustment... and we can work on the nights simultaneously so that after a week or two, we can see what's left to tweak.

Below is a link to show you the average Awake times for different ages/stages.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=248483.0

Here's the routine changes I suggest... it's a routine so give or take some differences, but the general A times and between feedings times are the same.


Awake 725 - super late for him but he had a big vomit episode at bedtime so he wasn't in bed till 830.  That night he had night feeds at 12 and 5.
AT THE 5AM WAKE, OFFER LESS THAN WHAT YOU WERE PREVIOUSLY GIVING... SO IF 15 MINS, 10 MINS.  IF BOTH BREASTS, JUST ONE, AND REDUCE GRADUALLY. THIS FEED IS USUALLY THE REASON LO'S DON'T TAKE A FULL MORNING FEED... MY SON DID THE SAME! FULL FEED AT THE FIRST NIGHT WAKE

Plus a few wake ups before 725 where I just held him quick. LIKE YOU'VE TRIED BEFORE, TRY ALWAYS PATTING AND FIRMLY HOLDING A HAND TO HIS BACK BEFORE PICKING UP UNLESS HE'S REALLY UPSET. THE MORE YOU TRY, (AND IT TAKES A WHILE- FOR US SOMETIMES WEEKS), THE MORE THEY'LL ACCEPT IT.

FEED AT 7:00AM OR LATER, NOT BEFORE IF POSSIBLE.. THIS WILL HELP REGULATE HIS WAKE UP TIME AND BODY'S HUNGER CUES
E BM at 725 - not much - very usual

E solids 830 - tiny amount due to caution with the vomit.  Applesauce and oatmeal plus pear slices
I WOULD ACTUALLY OFFER A SOLID NOT TOO LONG AFTER HIS MORNING BF... PEXCELLENT PRECAUTION... TO RULE OUT FOOD ISSUES, OFFER ONE OF THE ABOVE... PERHAPS JUST OATMEAL AS THAT'S PRETTY HEARTY AND INCLUDES MILK OR WATER, DEPENDING ON HOW YOU PREPARE OR JUST THE PEAR SLICES (MY SON LOVED THIS!)

S attempt crib at 950- needed help, was upset,  fell asleep at 1005 - 1145
THIS IS ONLY 2.25 HRS SINCE WAKE UP, SO WITH A 7:25 WU, PUT HIM DOWN AT 10:50 (a few minutes before 3.5hrs). STICK WITH A 3.5 HR AWAKE TIME FOR AT LEAST 3-4 DAYS TO HELP HIM REGULATE. I WOULD CAUTION THAT SOME BABIES DO NEED A SHORTER AWAKE TIME FIRST THING IN THE MORNING, BUT IT WON'T BE THAT MUCH SHORTER... SOME DAYS HE MIGHT BE READY AT 10:30, BUT IT'S STILL AT LEAST 3 HRS AFTER WAKE UP IN THE MORNING.

E BM 1145- big feed still sleepy from waking up
HOPEFULLY HE'LL SLEEP 10:55/11:00-12:30. BECAUSE HE'LL BE GOING DOWN LATER, A SNACK AT 9:30 IS APPROPRIATE... TRY APPLESAUCE OR JUST THE PEARS HERE, AND A TOP OFF BF (NOT TOO MUCH, BUT ENOUGH TO RULE OUT HUNGER BEFORE NAP). TRY NOT TO BF WITHIN THE 30 MINS BEFORE HIS NAP AT 10:55.

E solids 130.  Toast and veggies
WAKING UP AT 12:30 IS PERFECT FOR A LUNCH BF FIRST, THEN SOLIDS.
FEEDING UPON WAKE UP FROM SLEEP IS IDEAL.  IT HELPS REGULATE DIGESTION... SO WE WANT HIM TO BE HUNGRY. THIS IS THE TIME WE AIM FOR A FULL BF.


E BM 245
ABOUT 1-2 HRS LATER, SO IN THIS CASE AROUND 2PM, OFFER SOLIDS AS A SNACK... THE TOAST AND VEGGIES ARE EXCELLENT. THIS HELPS CURB HUNGER BEFORE HIS NEXT NAP TIME BUT WON'T BE RIGHT BEFORE.

S 330-410 in carrier due to going for a walk with the family
IF WAKE UP FROM HIS LAST NAP WAS 12/12:30, THEN HIS NEXT NAP WOULD FALL AROUND 3:30PM.  EARLIER IF HIS MORNING NAP WAS SHORTER.

BF UPON WAKING UP FROM AFTERNOON NAP. DOING SO WILL GIVE YOU ANOTHER 3 HRS BEFORE BT NURSING. OFFER "DINNER" OR SOLIDS 1-1.5 HRS AFTER BF.
E solids 515.  Sweet potato, savoury muffin, banana
PERFECT SOLID OPTIONS, BUT I WOULD CONSIDER OFFERING ONLY 1 OR 2 OF THE ABOVE.

E BM at bedtime 645
HIS LAST FEEDING WOULD'VE BEEN AROUND 4, SO TRY FOR A BEDTIME FEEDING AT 7.

In bed at 710 - seemed fairly tired.  Absolute meltdown as soon as hit the crib.  I tried to get husband to settle but this went very badly.  He took a longtime to calm, eventually calming and sleeping around 730
NW at 1130(no feed), 230(feed), 330 (no feed), 520(feed).  Woke at 625 upset so tried to resettle but gave up and up for the day
THE LAST AWAKE TIME TO BED CAN BE SHORTER DEPENDING ON HOW SHORT/LONG NAPS WERE. BUT 7-7:30 IS A GREAT TIME FOR YOUR SON AS HE WAS UP AROUND 4. TRY BT FEED AT 7, AND PUT DOWN IN BED AT 7:30 TO SEE IF IT HELPS HIS NIGHTS.


These are just my suggestions in order to help regulate his sleep and hunger... which is so closely related physiologically. Notice that we are always offering breastmilk first, solids as a secondary to ensure the breastmilk is taken. I know what you mean about the distractions!!! We did the same and made sure it was dark and quiet when my son fed... so hard to do. It does help to make sure they're hungry upon waking from sleep.

Of course this is not a strict schedule but we can aim for eating before sleep, half way between naps, and longer awake times to see if it is in fact his routine that is causing so much nap resistance and night wakes. Hoping for more sleep in your near future!!!
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 00:21:40 am by ginger428 »

Offline CbabyJ

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Re: 9mo very unsettled between 4-7am
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2017, 11:26:29 am »
Thanks so much for the detailed reply.
One question - I've often read to feed solids a little while after milk, is there a reason why you suggest to feed straight away?  I would prefer straight away in some instances especially lunch, as I feel a bit trapped by all the feeding!

He had a bad virus a week ago and that's what I'm attributing the vomit to- I think he is a bit more vomit prone than most kids.  He also ate so much food that day.  I think he has a hard time self regulating when it's food he loves eg yogurt!

Offline ginger428

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Re: 9mo very unsettled between 4-7am
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2017, 15:26:09 pm »
The morning/breakfast is the only time I suggested it.  The other times for solids are in between bf and sleep times.
I suggested it as a way to introduce something, knowing he won't eat too much of it, but to last until snack time.
You could always wait until snack time, too.

The lunch time- I meant to say the solids (toast and veggies) for later as a snack... but just make sure bf is right after he wakes up from sleep. And a little later, about an hr or so, give him the solids as a snack.

I used to bf, then offer something really small... like a couple slices of banana. Then later for snack, I would offer toast and veggies.
I know what you mean about feedings...it's a lot, but keeping it simple helped a lot.  It ended up generally like this for us:

BF and a fruit at WU
SNACK- solids
BF after am nap and a small solid
SNACK- solids
BF after pm nap and a small solid
DINNER- solids
BF at BT




Offline CbabyJ

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Re: 9mo very unsettled between 4-7am
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2017, 16:33:55 pm »
Great that helps.  The idea of so many snacks is scary he makes such a mess- I am not sure I can cope with all the cleaning !

One more question- I've scoured the site for other posters routines and I see a big variation in awake times especially in the first nap of the day.  Even some ten month olds are sleeping at two and half hours after waking.  Do you think the fact he that he isn't sleeping through the night impacts the first awake time? 

Last night he actually only woke twice even after his crappy nap day - 1145 and 345 I fed both times.


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Re: 9mo very unsettled between 4-7am
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2017, 11:29:23 am »
An update here - I've had some success with naps with 3hr awake time in the morning and about 3hr15 in the afternoon.  He does need a little more soothing than I'd like both for naps and bedtime.

We've had illness after illness so I'm just trying to get him to sleep and breastfeed as much as possible which is halting any night sleep improvement.  His vomiting has returned and isn't every night but it means he isn't eating much in the way of solids. 
His weight gain was also not great at his last check- which was no surprise.
I know I'm setting myself up for a disaster but I'm feeding when he wakes at night.  I think he is hungry - he feeds for at least 10 mins very actively and most of the time is awake when I put him back in the crib. 

I am worried about how to stop feeding at night but last night I tried with rocking and patting for 30 mins to get him to sleep at 945pm  and he just wouldn't sleep for more than  a minute.
I just don't know why he is so hungry so soon after bed. 

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Re: 9mo very unsettled between 4-7am
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2017, 09:48:01 am »
Sorry to hear there has been so much illness :(

His vomiting has returned and isn't every night but it means he isn't eating much in the way of solids.
His weight gain was also not great at his last check- which was no surprise.
Have you spoken with the doc about his vomiting?  What do you think it is linked to? certain solids? reflux?
You might want to start a thread on the health board to get some more experienced eyes on this to help you out?

I know I'm setting myself up for a disaster but I'm feeding when he wakes at night.  I think he is hungry - he feeds for at least 10 mins very actively and most of the time is awake when I put him back in the crib. 
If he is ill or has been ill then I would not limit milk feeds at all. Once you are sure he is healthy you could look at the balance of solids and milk in the day versus milk at night.  Try not to worry too much about this at the moment, his health is the most important thing and any props or routine changes or shifting of feeds from night to day can be dealt with when he is fully recovered.  I would perhaps review his solids intake though and see if there is anything he is eating which is bothering him.
You can post on the Feeding Solid Food board if you like?