4 mo old Shh/pat easy for naps, fighting it at bedtime

[gingermary]

I have baby #4 and he’s been on easy pretty consistently, however we had major changes that have thrown things off...at 2.5 months we moved from Texas back to the Middle East(he was born in Texas) but made a stop for 5 days in Europe...he switch his day/pretty easily(he’d been pretty jaundiced so he slept a LOT the first 2 months). However, when we got all the way here his hours were still a couple hours off because he’d flipped his day and night in Europe...so for a while he wasn’t going to bed u til 11 or 12 but sleeping til 10:30 or so...then he got sick with nasty congestion and then a nasty cough for several weeks so his sleep was totally off as we just tried to help him get sleep by letting him sleep elevated in the swing or the dockatot elevated in the crib...anyway, he’s finally better and about two weeks ago I started getting him back on track(he had been sleeping at least a 6or 7 hr stretch at night, but that has only happened once(last week) since he’d been sick. He is a very easy and happy baby. Easy to read on E.A.S.Y. He doesn’t cry much at all during the day but would cry a ton at bedtime trying to go down when he was sick. It would take me almost 3 hrs sometimes to get him down to stay for the night(and stay was just 3 hrs at a time). And his naps were awful...30 minutes naps all day long(4 or 5)  So as soon as he felt better I started PU/PD(not realizing I should do shh pat first) and on day 1 as soon as I saw a yawn I’d go in to put him down and he went down with not much fussing and that first day all his naps were at least an hour and two were 1.5... it went really well for naps but bedtime was still a fight, although it was only 30-45 min...so I read Tracy’s books and have some questions...I’m moving him to a 4 hour schedule instead of 3 hr and her method says to extend his awake time by 15 minutes...so does that mean I keep him up even if his sleepy window (yawning,etc) hits? ..and then have to deal with an overtired baby to put down for nap time?  She said this is the one time to actually watch the clock...if I put him down when he shows signs of being tired then he doesn’t sleep long enough, I should try shh/pat to extend his nap all the way until the next feed time? And also a question about shh/pat...she suggests patting for at least 7-10 minutes after he settles down...but at naps he usually goes straight to sleep when I lay him down or after a few pats...how long do I keep up the 7-10 minutes of shh/pat?

[creations]

Hello and welcome to BW forums

Wow you've had a lot on your plate with 4 LOs, moving countries and sickness!

From what I can gather you've been getting him back on track and using PUPD for 2 weeks, is that right?  Now you are reverting to shush/pat but are getting short naps, is that right?

Shush/pat is always the go-to method, PUPD is really a last resort although keep in mind that during shush/pat you DO PU if baby is crying lots and you DO PD when he is calmer but there is no time restraint on this version during the shush/pat method and for a baby this age, you hold for as long as is needed to get him down calm and continue the shush/pat in the cot.

There is a 4 month sleep regression where lots of babies start to short nap - if your LO is on a suitable A time then it could be he is short napping due to this developmental stage.
If though his A time is short for his age and individual needs then extending it (yes even if he has already yawned) will help to get longer naps.  Whilst he might be a bit OT for the nap and for a few days during the routine change, overall it would make him less OT because he would be napping better and getting more restorative sleep - the outcome is better in the longer term but yes there can be some OT in the shorter term.

When extending A times Tracy said to do anything to keep them awake that extra time, a fan dance if necessary.

then he doesn’t sleep long enough, I should try shh/pat to extend his nap all the way until the next feed time?

If you want to get into a routine fast then this is probably the best method.  You are teaching LO that it is sleep time even if they are not asleep.  However, patting all the way to next feed time might not work for you personally, there are many people here who have gone a slower/gentler route to get to a suitable routine.  This can be for various reasons such as having other children to care for (so you just can't spend that time patting LO4), or because sitting in a dark room patting for an hour drives you insane (that would be me!), or whatever reason. So if you don't feel you can follow Tracy's method to the letter it's okay, you can still follow the BW ethos and the EASY routine.
Generally on the forums we say not to continue patting in the dark 9after a short nap) for more than 40 mins. You might like to go with that. Or for some parents they would prefer or need to get LO up right away regardless of the short nap.

she suggests patting for at least 7-10 minutes after he settles down...but at naps he usually goes straight to sleep when I lay him down or after a few pats...how long do I keep up the 7-10 minutes of shh/pat?

If he goes to sleep relatively independently at the start of a nap you don't need to keep patting this is for babies who don't stay asleep and need to be patted into the deep sleep part of the cycle.  Instead I would suggest trying a Wake To Sleep method (W2S).  Where you go in just before LO wakes and start shush/pat to help him transition from one sleep cycle to the next to extend the nap and teach him to stay asleep. Here is a FAQ, I suggest naps option 1:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
You can adapt it for your individual LO. If he only needs a few pats to keep him down and go back to sleep at the 40/45 min mark then that's all you need to do. If he needs patting for 20 mins and you have that time available to you then do that.
W2S is done in cycles, use the method for 3 days then hold off to see if he "got it". Resettle on that day if needed and begin another cycle of 3 days the next day.
You can do this for all naps or you can pick one nap per day (you might not be able to dedicate 20 mins for every nap when you have other children). if you pick one nap per day I suggest you do the same nap every day to build a habit on that nap, switching naps is not ideal.

One other thing I'd like to mention.  You didn't mention his feed times but the 4hr EASY is a 4 hr interval between feeds.  Not all babies of 4 months can manage a full 4hrs between feeds. Tracy gives some examples in her book of LOs who this might not be suitable for.  If your Lo can't make it to 4hrly E it's okay, you can still run an EASY routine but you'd need to work out a routine which is suitable for your LO.  We can help if needed.
My own DS could not go longer than 3hr between milk feeds until he was 6 months old when he had some solids between milk feeds but we still followed the EASY routine and methods, just adapted to him as an individual.

It is very helpful to us if you can record your EASY times exactly as they happen whilst getting support and you can post them in this format:
WU (wake time in the morning) 7.00
E 7.00
A 1hr 20 min (this is the full time from eyes open and awake to eyes shut and asleep)
S 8.20 - 9.00 (with a note about how you tried to resettle, for how long and if LO went back to sleep what time and how long)
A
E 10
A 1hr 30 (the total A time)
S 10.30 -
and so on through the day to
BT bed time
and include any
NF night feeds what time
NW night waking time not for a feed
through to
WU

I hope this helps - let us know if you have more questions.

[gingermary]

Thanks so much for the reply and advice! So yes, I’ve got my hands full! So yes, after he got over being sick I started PUPD because I’d only read secrets of the baby whisperer which didn’t go into any details of shh/pat and that PUPD was more of a last resort after trying shh/pat😬 but I’d started reading the other book about sleep and read more details so I started just doing shh/pat...So since posting this we’ve had a little improvement...even a longer nap!(see his schedule below!) I’ve been trying to get him on a 4 hr routine—I’m pretty sure he can handle it as far as the eating goes(he just didn’t seem to be as hungry or seem like he was eating enough on the 3 hr...(5 minutes and he’s act like he was done!) he’s also a chunky monkey (he will actually be 5 months old in 3 days!) so I’m pretty sure he can handle the 4 hr routine...

So today his schedule was as follows...
WU- 7:55
E-7:56
A- 1 hr 55 min
S- 9:45-10:33(put his paci in and tried to shh/pat him back to sleep for a few minutes but he wasn’t having it, so I didn’t try long because I homeschool and needed to get back down to the other kids)
A
E-12:07
A- 2 hrs
S- 12:35 - 1:59—he just couldn’t hang any longer since his first nap was short...even though I probably could’ve just laid him down and he’d have been out, I did his sleep routine(which consists of laying him on the changing  table, turning on his music, changing his diaper, swaddling—we use a zipadee zip now because he started sleeping on his tummy a few weeks ago-, picking him up, turning on the sound machine, closing the curtains and/or turning off the lights, standing next to his crib for a few minutes with him on my shoulder snuggling while we listen to a bit more music and patting his back...then I lay him down in the crib) and he was out in no time, no resettling needed (note: went down without a paci)...and slept nearly an hour and a half!!
A-
E- 3:33 (again, he was already tired by the time I fed him. He’s a super chill baby, and other than when he’s in the car seat and I can’t do much about it, he hardly ever cries, so when he fussed it’s usually because he’s tired or hungry and on EASY I can usually just figure out which...but he was almost too tired to eat. So again, I tried to keep him up but he didn’t last long)
S- 3:50–5:04 (put him down as usual...after a couple minutes he’s fussed and it led to a cry but I just put his paci in and patted his back about 10 seconds and he was out)
A-
E- 6:45
A- 2 hrs 5 min
S- 7:09(again, his naps threw off his routine and he just wasn’t gonna make it til bedtime so I let him take a nap)
E- 8:44 cluster feed
BT-  9:01 ..I usually put him down about 8:30 but we had guests and he took a late catnap and so stayed up a bit longer...so I laid him down after snuggles at 9:01 and he kicked around a bit and flopped his head from side to another for about 4 minutes and finally fussed so I settled him down with shh/pat just in the crib and patted for about 8 minutes and stepped away...then after about a minutes he was fussing again, I gave him his paci and pat him a bit but he wasn’t having it so I picked him up and settled him quickly on my shoulder and pat him there for a few minutes, laid him down, pat him for a full 10 minutes, thought he was out but once again he cried, I picked him up and shh patted about 2 minutes, laid him down again, pat again a few minutes...he started to stir again and I just wiggled his bum for about 5-10 seconds(my husband figured it out that this settled him quickly!) and he was still again...and I stepped away at 9:38, sat on the floor(typing this!)for 10 more minutes to make sure he was out and then left the room.
NW- 10:25 ,paci and about 30 seconds of patting had him back out.
DF- 11:00
NW- 1:24 didn’t feed him, didn’t pick him up, just shh patted for a couple minutes and put his paci back in.
NF- 6:05 I heard him fussing at 6(which took me a minute to comprehend because this was the best he’s slept in 2 months!) so I went in and he had rolled over to his back and was flopping around. When I picked him up I realized he needed a new diaper because he’d pooped so I had to change him which woke him up even more...but then I fed him, snuggled him on my shoulder a few minutes and then laid him down again and patted him about a minute and thought he was out but then woke up after a bit and I did shh/pat for 10 minutes and he was out.
WU- 7:53
 
His was definitely the best night he’s had since before he was sick. So there’s at least improvement!

So just a side note—we live in an Arab culture which is a very late night culture so while I’ve read a lot of stuff about earlier bedtimes, those babies also wake up at 7, so I figure an 8:30 bedtime and usually waking around 8 is pretty much the same, right?

So one of my questions is...like today, he had such a short nap that by the time it was feeding time again he was also tired, so he went to sleep just a few minutes after eating...does that mess things up or do I feed him a little sooner so there’s more time between? How do you keep E.A.S. In order in this case...or maybe after a week or so it will sort itself out as his naps get longer(Lord willing)?

[creations]

His was definitely the best night he’s had since before he was sick. So there’s at least improvement!

Great news!!

As he is pretty  much 5 months now you need to be aware of the increasing A times.  Times increase quite rapidly from 4 - 6 months and can catch us out.  Here's a FAQ:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0
It's just guidance of course, always use what you know works best for your LO, shorter or longer as needed.
5 months is an A time of 2hr to 2hr 30.  That first nap was after just under 2hrs A time and another 10 mins or so could have helped to make him ired enough to transition from one sleep cycle to another, or to make it easier to resettle him if he woke.  Maybe try an extra 10 or 15 mins on that first A time.
You don't necessarily need to increase every A time across the day, but you might find that the reason he did a better nap 2 was partly because nap 1 was shorter so he was more tired. If/when nap 1 lengthens you might need the extra 15 min onto the second A time too.

I figure an 8:30 bedtime and usually waking around 8 is pretty much the same, right?

Fine.  Lots of people run a later (or even earlier) routine depending on their culture or family needs.  I'd say it only becomes more tricky if you miss the natural sleep window.  8.30pm is not too late IMO.

he went to sleep just a few minutes after eating...does that mess things up or do I feed him a little sooner so there’s more time between? How do you keep E.A.S. In order

The EAS order is more relevant and easier with a younger baby.  By 6 months this routine changes anyway, solids are introduced so the E comes far m ore freqwuently with there being milk E and solids E.  Milk E often extends then to 5hrs.  Implementing an EASY routine at 5 months you can just bare in mind that it doesn't need to be perfect. The idea of EAS is to keep a little A time between E and S so that you avoid feeding to sleep. If you track the E and S needs as the day goes on you will see any clashes which might occur (either due to A times being different for your individual baby or because of a short nap or whatever reason) and you can just feed a bit earlier to avoid the clash or if the E time is due near the end of a nap then just wait until after the nap, LO will likely go a bit longer between E in that case. It's quite flexible around the sleeps, but avoid the feed to sleep prop because I know your aiming to sleep train (and you are doing well!!).

hope this helps. Here for updates or questions

[gingermary]

Thank you SO much for your feedback! Today his morning nap was 2 hours!!! (I actually had to wake him up so that he didn’t sleep through his next feeding!) his later naps were just 40 min each but progress is pretreat!! And bedtime all I did was pat him for 10 minutes! So thankful for this site and all the tips and encouragement!

[creations]

Today his morning nap was 2 hours!!!

Great update!!!

Given that he has previously done a longer second nap it could well be he needs slightly longer on the A time after a good long first nap.  The A time and also level of activity and stimulation will make him more or less tired.

You're doing great