Author Topic: Really need help with PUPD! It's day 11 and things have gone south :(  (Read 5328 times)

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Offline Ellyphant1984

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Hi all, this is my first time posting here. My baby will be turning 6 months next week. We started pick up put down method 10 days ago as she only can sleep being walked or rocked (for every night wakings as well!). The training was going well and she can settle herself without crying in the middle of the night (usually once or twice). At the start of the night it's still rough, she still cries at least 20 mins before settling. 

However, yesterday, it took her 3 hours and lots of crying (as well as change of diaper and nursing) before she fell asleep. She was in bed by 6pm and only slept at 8pm. She was up again at 11:30pm but settle well after nursing at 11:45pm. She woke again at 3am and refused to sleep even after nursing and change of diaper. I had to PUPD and pat her until 5:30am. Yesterday was the worst night since we started pupd. Before last night she has also been waking at 3/4/5am and everytime she wakes at these times, she can't settle and needs lots of crying and PUPD. Whenever she does these early wakings, I'm at a loss what to do and her whole day became chaotic. Can someone please advice what I can do? I am only night training and still walk her for 3 naps as I'm worried she's overtired and the training wouldn't work. Should i be training for naps as well? And if I do, how do I prevent overtiredness? There was once she skipped her 3rd nap and became overtired and couldn't settle for 2 hours and woke every hour throughout the night. She usually has around 2/3 hours nap spread out in 3 naps. I tried to follow the EASY routine but due to her erratic night, I can't seem to follow a proper schedule. Would appreciate some advice as I'm worried of sabotaging the training.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 10:46:16 am by Ellyphant1984 »

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Re: Really need help with PUPD! It's day 11 and things have gone south :(
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2017, 15:23:31 pm »
Hello and welcome to BW forums :)

It's true that some people focus on only training for night sleep and continue with sling or stroller naps in the day - I would say though that you are likely to have greater, and quicker, success if you did naps too.  If you need one of the naps to be on the the go because you need to get out to a baby group at a certain time then adding that into your routine now would be helpful so that she can get used to the entire routine.  The thing about only training at night is that you are likely tempted to help her catch up on lost sleep during the day and this can actually end up effecting the night sleep and training.
It is of course up to you though.

I would suggest moving to a 2 nap routine which is suitable for 6 months old, watching the clock more to get her onto that routine and comforting her as much as needed whilst she finds it tricky.  You'd be looking for 2 long naps of 1.5-2hrs and a 3hr A time between naps. Something like this:
WU (wake up) 7.00
E 7.00 milk
E 8.00 solids (if you've started solids)
A 3hrs
S 10.00 - 11.30
E 11.30 milk
E 12.30 solids (depends how many meals you are offering)
A 3hrs
S 2.30 - 4.00
E 4.00 milk
A 3hr
BT (bed time) 7.00

And if any nap ended up too short you would do EBT (early bed time) to help to avoid too much OT at night.

how do I prevent overtiredness?
It's not always possible to avoid OT but actually during sleep training it work to your advantage. Babies do eventually sleep.
You can pop back into her room at around 30 mins to check she can transition from one sleep cycle to the next on her own, if not help her with shush/pat. This is called W2S (wake to sleep), here is a FAQ, please see naps option 1
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
It is a helpful tool to sleep train and also to lengthen the nap (and avoid some OT) but if it is not successful one day you would  need to try to resettle her.

When you are using PUPD are you also shush/patting in arms and then in the cot?  You can continue to shush/pat after putting her down and shush/pat all the way to deep sleep to help sleep train.  the shush/pat is then gradually reduced. This works in conjunction with PUPD and can reduce how much you need to PU.

Is your LO healthy?  Any reflux?  Use a paci?  These are a couple of the times when PUPD is not a suitable method so I'm just checking.
There are other things which can disturb sleep at this age too - teething is the common one.

Hope this helps some - we're here if you have more questions.


Offline Ellyphant1984

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Re: Really need help with PUPD! It's day 11 and things have gone south :(
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2017, 17:06:29 pm »
Hi, thank you so much for your reply! Am awake at 1am now after a second round of long crying tonight. Would u suggest I begin training for naps and shift her to a 2 naps routine immediately or slowly increase her A time? Depending on how her night was, her A time now is around 2 hours to 2.5 hours. Do I increase it immediately to 3 hours or do it gradually over a couple of days? What if she wakes early like 5am and can't resettle? How do I adjust the routine for the day? Sorry for the many questions as I'm really confuse by the sudden regression when it was going pretty well. She used to have a day routine like this:
WU: 7am
E: 7.15am
A: 2 hours
S: 9am- 10am
E: between 10.30-11am
A: 2 hours
S: 12pm-2pm
E: 2:15pm
A: 2 hours
S: 4pm- 4:30pm
E: 4:30pm-5pm
A: 2 hours
BT: 6pm-6.30pm

But when we started sleep training,she only manage to settle herself at 6:50pm for the first 10 days of training. Then on day 10 we began to see changes, first she resisted the third nap and ended up having 4 hours A time at bedtime. The next 2 days, she did have the 3rd nap but resisted sleep and cried until around 8pm (from 6pm).

She does not use a paci, as far as I know no reflux issue. Not sure about teething though as I dont see swollen gums.

So based on your routine below, should I start putting her in bed at 10am and 2:30pm or how much earlier since she probably would be resisting and crying. If she skip the nap entirely, what should i do?

Regarding shush pat, we tried using it from day one but it doesn't seem to soothe my baby. And when she's settling, she tend to go on her tummy and bury her face but still crying. At this point we stop PU and just rub her back. She is still crying while on her tummy but stop for a few seconds when we say our key phrase. Should we be picking her up more? Now that she's stronger, she rolls around the cot and buries her face in the mattress and sometimes bumping her head on the side of the cot. I read that we shouldn't be picking them up when they are doing this? Even though they are still crying?

Sorry for another long post.


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Re: Really need help with PUPD! It's day 11 and things have gone south :(
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2017, 20:04:33 pm »
Would u suggest I begin training for naps and shift her to a 2 naps routine immediately or slowly increase her A time?
Really it is up to you. Some people feel they prefer to go a bit slower and gentler and feel confident they have the patience and energy for the slower route of increasing the A time gradually, this requires a degree of winging it as you would need to decide for yourself day to day and nap to nap how to proceed.  Some people like to crack right on with a new routine and get it done as quickly as possible, they tend to be people who prefer not to wing it but to have a clear plan to follow, this route can be faster but can also include more OT.  It really depends on your own personality (we've all done the baby quiz but I think in these things it's often more important to look at what personality type the parent is) and what you feel most comfortable with.
Happy to support you and offer suggestions either way. Or mid way even.

What if she wakes early like 5am and can't resettle?
Is this what is happening now? Is WU any time from 5am to 7am or more often now 5am?

The next 2 days, she did have the 3rd nap but resisted sleep and cried until around 8pm (from 6pm).
During a transitional period of nap dropping it's good to have a plan in mind what to do if the CN is taken (late BT) or refused (EBT).  A LO who is dropping the CN but agrees to take one will likely need a decent A time after the CN and this can push BT much later, I never plan for later than 8pm.

So based on your routine below, should I start putting her in bed at 10am and 2:30pm or how much earlier since she probably would be resisting and crying. If she skip the nap entirely, what should i do?
Again this really depends on how you want to approach it - it would be a big change to go directly to that 2 nap routine but you can, yes, or you can increase the A time slowly and move the nap out slowly. it's very rare a LO totally skips naps for long, they do eventually sleep. If you were to go all out on the routine change you'd need to dedicate time into helping her resettle using PUPD and your back rub and key phrase until (almost) the end of nap time.

Personally I tend to move things relatively quickly but without great big changes if I can avoid them.

Regarding shush pat, we tried using it from day one but it doesn't seem to soothe my baby.
It doesn't sooth all babies, often it is used as away of letting baby know you are there and they are not alone rather than it being a magical instant soothing method.  The back rub and key phrase you are using are fine - great.
Should we be picking her up more? Now that she's stronger, she rolls around the cot and buries her face in the mattress and sometimes bumping her head on the side of the cot. I read that we shouldn't be picking them up when they are doing this? Even though they are still crying?
The most important aspect is that you are there and you let your LO k now you are there, by touch and voice.  She needs to know she is not alone. you are doing this. Otherwise, again it is quite individual. I always picked mine up, I knew full well he would not settle until I did so even when he was fully independent for sleep and had been for a long time if he was crying he needed picking up, sometimes a very brief pick up but then he'd quickly settle back down and self sooth or calm with a hand on him.  This was well beyond the age where the guidance is to not pick up - I knew I had to.
So you can find your own way with this. If she calms more quickly in your arms I'd pick her up, but if she is flailing and kicking so much you feel you could drop her then don't pick up.

Sorry, I know I am not giving you clear cut answers and that's because everyone is so individual.
I can probably offer some more suggestions when I get an idea how you'd like to proceed.


Offline Ellyphant1984

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Re: Really need help with PUPD! It's day 11 and things have gone south :(
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2017, 22:26:31 pm »
Hi again, I would need to discuss with my husband on how to proceed as he is out Ignatius town until end of next week. I think it would be hard to approach the nap training alone.

She rarely wakes up at 7am now unless she wakes at 3am/4am and we had to pupd u til 5/6am then she woke wake at 7am herself or I will wake her at 7am. I read it's good to start the day at the same time? If she wakes anytime after 5am, it's hard for us to pupd as it would go way past her wake up time. Or should we go ahead and pupd and let her sleep in? I'm not sure.

Offline Ellyphant1984

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Re: Really need help with PUPD! It's day 11 and things have gone south :(
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2017, 22:51:57 pm »
P/S she just woke up at 5:30am again. I tried to leave her to resettle but Shen cried so I changed her diaper and left her in the cot. She cried almost immediately and was hungry so I fed her one side of the breast and left her in bed with us until 7am to get her up. Is this accidental parenting?

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Re: Really need help with PUPD! It's day 11 and things have gone south :(
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2017, 09:27:58 am »
If she wakes at 5am you can do PUPD and still get her up at 7am although personally I wouldn't.  Tracy does describe using PUPD until the end (or almost) of sleep time and then getting LO up when the sleep time "should" have been over even if they've not long nodded off. This is because it gets them into routine.  However, like I said, I wouldn't go that way (it is very tiring for one thing) and many people here prefer to work on self settling for naps, BT and NWs but then accept an earlier start and tweak the routine to try to fix that WU time rather than shush/pat or PUPD until 7am.
If you wanted to PUPD and let her sleep in that would be okay for a day or two, you could then look at the whole routine and see where to tweak nap times etc.  Even though sleeping in and having a variable WU time doesn't set up a consistent routine it can help towards learning that 5am is not morning and she must go back to sleep so it has its plus side.

If she's hungry though you shouldn't try to resettle a NW for feeding even if it's an awkward time. 5.30 is an awkward time for a feed because it is harder to get to sleep afterwards but she's not going to resettle if she's hungry.  BF babies need to feed on demand so I'd just go ahead and feed and see if you can get her back down.

Moving her into your bed can rapidly become a habit, so yes it is accidental parenting (AP).


Offline Ellyphant1984

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Re: Really need help with PUPD! It's day 11 and things have gone south :(
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2017, 10:45:20 am »
How do we tweak the routine to fix the Early WU?

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Re: Really need help with PUPD! It's day 11 and things have gone south :(
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2017, 14:35:20 pm »
Well, you'd need to know what your routine was first.  At this point I don't know how you want to move forward really so it is impossible to suggest how to tweak anything when I've nothing to tweak.
Do you want to just start with the day time sleep training and get going with it?
You can.  Just start putting LO in the cot instead of holding, jot down your times and a brief note of how LO responds and then I'll be able to see a real day routine.


Offline Ellyphant1984

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Re: Really need help with PUPD! It's day 11 and things have gone south :(
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2017, 01:45:27 am »
Hi, yesterday I tried getting her A time up to 2.5 hours but have yet to start nap training. The day went like this:

Early waking: 5:30am - cried and had to nurse. Nurse one side and keep in room
WU: 7am
10 mins power nap at 8am
E: 7:15am
A: 2.5hours
S: 9:30am-10am
E: 11am
A: 2.5 hours
S: 12:30pm- 2:30pm
E: 3pm
A: 2.15hours
CN: 4:45pm- 5pm
E: 6pm part of bedtime routine
BT: 6:30pm but after crying she only settle at 7:20pm.

She woke up at 5:40am today.

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Re: Really need help with PUPD! It's day 11 and things have gone south :(
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2017, 22:51:50 pm »
Do you think it's possible you could be misinterpreting her crying at BT and she is crying due to being UT (under tired) rather than OT (over tired)?  I see you tried to put her down for her night sleep after only 1hr 30 A time, I realise she'd had a particularly short CN at only 15 mins but even many babies will kick up a huge UT fuss if they are not tired enough for bed. I also noticed in your first post you gave an example of a night when she took 3hrs to go to sleep at BT, which could also have been due to UT (and eventually she cried herself through her sleep window and ended up OT by the end of the session).
It's not unusual to misinterpret the UT crying, I also did, many do, I think because parents can be so fearful of OT that we forget to think about UT. Although 6 month olds are still tiny babies they can be surprisingly vocal about not being ready for sleep.


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Re: Really need help with PUPD! It's day 11 and things have gone south :(
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2017, 12:43:16 pm »
Hi, i did realize that during my first post where she cried 3 hours, I suspected UT as well.hence I up her time to 2.5 hours but had to give her a CN for 15 mins to avoided her OT since it would be 4 hours A time. Yesterday we had a great night. I put her down at 6:30pm and she cried for about a minute and settle herself at 6:40pm. Didn't wake until 3am to nurse and had abit of crying but slept back at 5am. Woke again at almost 7am. I did the same routine again tonight but she cried for about 15 mins then settle herself just before 7pm. Hoping she will wake at 3am like yesterday. Fingers crossed.

I would love to move her to 2 naps a day though but it seems she gets tired after 1.5 hours. How would you suggest for me to tweak? Also, when we woke up at 3am, she was playing for about 15 mins before calling out for milk. Then it took her almost 40 mins before she slept. Could she be getting too much sleep hence she stayed awake for a while? Total day nap is only 2 hours 50 mins.

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Re: Really need help with PUPD! It's day 11 and things have gone south :(
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2017, 12:45:51 pm »
Sorry, there was a typo. She gets tired after 2.5 hours! Not 1.5 hours.

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Re: Really need help with PUPD! It's day 11 and things have gone south :(
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2017, 09:57:07 am »
LOs will show tired signs when they habitually go for a nap, so she is used to going for a nap after only 2.5hrs and can continue to show tired signs at that time, the only way to increase the A time is for you to take charge and extend it.  Whilst you might feel this is mean to keep her up a bit longer if/when she starts to nap longer she will be better rested as a result of having stayed up longer.  Los cues are also more difficult to read at this age, they can show the classic tired signs when they are bored (yawning, eye rubbing etc) and need a change of scene or activity, just as the screaming at nap or BT can be confused with OT it can instead be UT.
We all get it wrong time to time, that's why these forums are so great to get some tips from other parents :)
Those long NWs can also be due to an A time that is too short in the day, either going to bed too early or the naps being too short due to UT.  A night feed wouldn't ideally result in a 2hr period of being awake which I think is what you are getting.

How about you increase the A times to 2hr 45 now?
And do a W2S on nap 1 to help her extend.  Once you get longer naps and enough A time between the naps you won't need to squeeze a CN in.
I would also try to focus on not putting her to bed for her night sleep too early.


Offline Ellyphant1984

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Re: Really need help with PUPD! It's day 11 and things have gone south :(
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2017, 11:12:51 am »
Hi, after a little testing yesterday, she was able to stay up for 3 hours before her noon nap. So I think I'd like to increase her A time to 3 hours. However, she's been waking up at 5/6am instead of 7. If she wakes at 4am, I'm sure I can pupd so she sleeps till 7 but for 5/6am wakes, I don't think it would work. Based on your previous schedule of 3 hours A time, how should I adapt it if she wakes at 5/6am?

Secondly, I would like to start nap training after a week of increasing her A time, how should I go about with nap training? Do I set her down at the exact time or 10 mins or more earlier? If she takes a long time to sleep, should I wake her at the end of the nap time even if she just doze off? What if she skips it entirely? Should I try at the next nap which is 3 hours later or make it earlier? I'm really confuse as this would be totally different from night training and may disrupt the schedule. What do I do if she wakes after one cycle and refuse to go back to sleep? Shhh pat doesn't seem to work during night training so I'm not sure about naps.

Thanks again in advance! Really appreciate your prompt and speedy replies!