Am I helping my 9 month old too much?

[CbabyJ]

My LO tends to complain straight away when I put him in bed for naps and bedtime.  He sits or stands and cries immediately.  I tend to put him down when he's almost asleep- I sway him for a few mins to calm him then lay him in the crib.  What I've been doing is picking him up, lying him down and stroking his back.  He seems to calm and settle most times quickly but as long as I have at least a finger on him.  The minute I step away, the screaming starts.
Am I just creating a prop?
I have just walked out of the room and he doesn't settle in 10 mins - then I have to really calm him by swaying him till he's almost asleep.
It seems to be a combination of separation anxiety and some bad sleep habits picked up recently as I have just wanted him to sleep quickly as I have an older child too.

[becj86]

This is peak age for SA - its worth being with him if he needs you during this time.

Is he protesting because he's not tired enough? Do you mind posting his EAS? It could be that a little more A time will have him falling asleep much more quickly again.

It sounds like you might be leaving him and not responding when he's upset - we don't advise that here as it can break the bond of trust between baby and carer.

[CbabyJ]

Would he be under tired if he goes to sleep quickly with my hand on him?
Friday
Awake 7
S 10-1145 I woke
S 3-345 - this was a battle to get him down he seemed tired but wouldn't let me leave.
Bed at 7 - NW 1130,4 fed both times

Awake 630
S 940-1120 - woke up 30 mins in and I had to help get back down
S 240-4 - woke again 30 mins in and needed help to get back down
Bed at 715, fell asleep straight away but with my hand on him
I tried extending the day today as our clocks went back last night.
NW 11,5
That was an odd day normally he goes straight down for his morning nap and needs waking.  I'm wondering whether his somewhat better night meant that he wasn't as tired to have a good nap.  But wouldn't a wake at 30 mins mean overtired?
Typically 3hr in the morning and 3hr15 in the Pm seem to work for awake time.
Although the afternoon nap is always hard to time and is rarely a good nap

As he needs a little help to fall asleep should I be considering gradual withdrawal? Would that help with the night feeds ?

[becj86]

Would he be under tired if he goes to sleep quickly with my hand on him?

Could be - they learn pretty quickly how to please mum

S 3-345 - this was a battle to get him down he seemed tired but wouldn't let me leave.

Did he then sleep 45min and wake on his own?

A few questions:
- Has your LO always been on the high end of sleep needs? As I read through your EASY, I had to remind myself he's 9mo, not 6-7mo.
- Are the NW's new or have they been there always? What is his behaviour like at the 4am-ish waking?
- When and what is he eating? That can have a pretty big bearing on NWs at this age.

I'm a bit concerned that he's hanging on to this routine out of habit and things are going to go to pot pretty quickly for you if we don't increase those A times. Seeing him with an OT waking with just 10mins more A time suggests he's either a kid who likes shorter A times than average (that's fine - nothing wrong with that, just need to know so we don't recommend crazy-long A times for him) or he's very habituated to this 3hr A time (that, we can just push through with a few days of resettling). I think its most likely that he needs more A time and that you will probably get 30min wakings for the first 3-4 days of an increased A time because he has become so used to these short A times. The things that point to this are the protesting at nap time, taking a while to go to sleep and the 45min nap after 3:15 in the afternoon. He may well need different A times at different times of day but I suspect he's doing a decent nap off 3hr A time first up in the day because he's not sleeping particularly well through the early hours of the morning because he doesn't have to. Definitely GW is a good way to go with sleep training - I just think a lot of your issues will be resolved by a more age-appropriate A time and the NFs may go once he's tired enough for good night sleep.

[CbabyJ]

In terms of sleep needs- I would say that he's always been a good napper well up to about 6 months and things have been hit or miss since. 
Do you think I need to cap naps?  Typically I cap at 1.5 hours or earlier if I want to make sure I can get a second nap in or make sure bedtime is going to happen around 7.
My issue with timing the first nap is that quite often he's unsettled in the morning waking 1-3 times between 4-6am.  So I think this makes him tired.
In terms of night wakings- he's always woken 2-3 times only this seems to have got worse recently and I'm really trying to avoid 3 night feeds so I resettle if he wakes too early after the last night feed.  So I think it can cause him to have less actual sleep at night.   TRhen he's tired for sure by 3 hours awake time for the first nap.
He is very upset when he wakes around 4-6 and needs a fair bit of help.  This morning he woke screaming and seemed really scared.
For food he has three meals- I breastfeed on waking after the naps and before bed. Plus two nightfeeds.
For solids he eats about 1-1.5 hours after nap 1 and waking and around 5pm.  He doesn't eat a ton- usually 2-3 tablespoons plus finger foods. Hard to say how much he eats but my first child ate a lot more and slept a lot more !


I didn't think my awake time, or total day sleep was that out of line with average for age -I've looked at the posted examples of routines on this site... maybe I'm wrong but three hour awake for first nap seems standard.

[becj86]

My issue with timing the first nap is that quite often he's unsettled in the morning waking 1-3 times between 4-6am.  So I think this makes him tired.

Yes, but the 3hr A time is reinforcing that rather than enticing him to sleep better in the early hours of the morning. If you push that first A time (yes, it will be horrible the first few days and he'll have OT wakings from naps the first few days which should be easily resettled), and keep it consistent, he will start sleeping better through the early hours and be better able to cope with a longer first A time. Given his age, I'd probably just jump to 3:30 A time first thing and see how he goes over the next week.

Keep in mind that people posting with issues at 9 months are usually not a good indication of what will work... average A time at 9 months is 3:30-4hr and it does vary a lot from baby to baby at this age. 3hr is average at 6-7 months, so its almost certainly too short for your DS and the wakings between 4 and 6am are telling you this.

[CbabyJ]

Thanks for the reply and all your comments.

Last night he had a great night not waking till 2 - even though he had really short naps yesterday. He did wake at 4 but resettled himself. Then woke at 5 for a feed which I expected as he is used to feeding every three to 4 hours at night.
Today I went with 3hr10 awake for first nap- he did wake about 45 mins but he got himself back asleep. I woke him after an hour and  30mins.
For the afternoon I tried putting him down 3hr20- he was really fussy for about half an hour before that.  He complained a bit when I put him down but did fall asleep by himself.  He only slept 40 mins and woke crying. 

My comment about other people's schedules was more based on the schedules posted in the FAQs.

Given that I should be shooting for a 3.5-4 hr awake time- I guess I should be capping naps to ensure a decent bedtime? I ideally would like a bedtime of 7 to be in line with my toddler

[becj86]

I woke him after an hour and  30mins.

I don't think you really need to cap naps - that's probably part of the trouble working out the next A time.

Here's the 7-9mo FAQ... scroll down to get to 9mo sample A times. https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164030.0
Some people will do a shorter A time in the morning because they're capping the first nap at 1hr or less. I tend to recommend that you get a good long A time in the morning and a good long nap then do a CN at the end of the day. Most people stick with that until the CN gets refused consistently, then work on capping a nap in the morning. At least with a long first nap, you know there's a good nap in the day and you've another chance if the first nap goes poorly. I think given the issues you're describing, a longer morning A time is the way to go.

Given that I should be shooting for a 3.5-4 hr awake time- I guess I should be capping naps to ensure a decent bedtime? I ideally would like a bedtime of 7 to be in line with my toddler

I think just cut one nap short - ideally the second one rather than capping both, when you get to one nap, you want him to be able to sleep as long as he needs rather than waking at 1.5hr because that's what he's been trained to do by capping at 1.5hr regularly. Have a look at the 9mo sample routines, there are plenty of options.

Something else to consider is when you want him to be awake for the day - a 12hr night is a bit unrealistic at this age, so you might find a 6am WU and 7pm BT is what ends up happening.

[CbabyJ]

Would you let the first  nap go over 2hours ?  I thought a too long nap in the morning disrupted the early morning night sleep?  I thought I had read that somewhere.
 FYI he had another better night - just waking at 1 and 430.  I am also starting to reduce the number of mins he nurses for to see if that naturally helps him sleep through.

[CbabyJ]

Just an update on today - he had an hour and a half nap this morning, waking by himself.  I tried for 3hr 20 awake time- he did seem drowsy during wind down.  But he fought hard eventually falling asleep with my hand on him at 3hr 45 awake time.  He only slept 40mins and woke crying. 
I really can't read when to put him down in the afternoon. 

[becj86]

Would you let the first  nap go over 2hours ? 

I would probably cap by watching for him to stir just after 2hr if it went that long. You can always cap the catnap at 20min if you're too close to BT, yk?  Yes, too long a morning nap can cause issues with the early hours of the morning but its actually usually in combination with too short an A time between as well.

But he fought hard eventually falling asleep with my hand on him at 3hr 45 awake time.  He only slept 40mins and woke crying. 

This is all in relation to the morning nap? If so, give him a few days at this A time and see if the nap lengthens out again. We cannot read into one 45min nap the first day you extend.

I am also starting to reduce the number of mins he nurses for to see if that naturally helps him sleep through.

Definitely worth a try, it can help.

FX for the rest of the day.

[CbabyJ]

The last few days have been strange to say the least.

Thurs
Woke 640
S 940-11
S 245- 345 (I woke)
Bed at 7
NW 12,345

Fri
Woke 6 out of crib 620
S 920-1035
S 205- 250 woke very upset
Bed at 645 woke screaming, fighting at 1030.  I refused to feed , it took an hour and a half to get him to sleep.  Something that has never happened!
Another NW at 345 with a feed

Sat
Woke 650
S 950-1135- he woke 30 mins in but I resettled him.  In hindsight I probably should have put him down earlier given the bad night.
S 305-350 woke very upset

So he's been falling asleep for naps easy- I sway him for a minute or two with a lullaby playing.  And he's very drowsy quickly.  And seems to fall asleep almost instantly in the crib.

Obviously I'm trying 3hr 30 for the afternoon with limited success. He wakes crying which still makes me think he's overtired despite showing no real tired signs most of the time.

[becj86]

He wakes crying which still makes me think he's overtired despite showing no real tired signs most of the time.

Waking crying can mean all sorts of things. Certainly not a good indicator of OT/UT.

S 950-1135- he woke 30 mins in but I resettled him.  In hindsight I probably should have put him down earlier given the bad night.

See the length of this nap? 1:45! The first long nap he's done in that sequence was after a bad night, so that tells me that after a good night, he can probably be pushed beyond 3hr in the morning. He woke 30min in because he was a bit OT but a bit of short-term OT where he's easily resettled at 30min is so much better than running an undercurrent of chronic OT from short naps.

He may be not showing tired signs because he's not yet tired. These A times are shorter than or on the short end of the average A time for his age.

[CbabyJ]

Thanks
One more question ... is it weird that he falls asleep quick even if he isn't tired enough for a long nap ?  Before he was fighting the nap so I thought pushing awake times would help.  But for the most part he isn't fighting going to sleep (for now anyway! )

[becj86]

is it weird that he falls asleep quick even if he isn't tired enough for a long nap ?

There are still plenty of reasons babies go to sleep quickly even if they're not tired enough - they know how to please mummy, they are in the habit of falling asleep at that time, they associate the WD routine with sleep time... He's not hugely UT, just enough that his naps aren't restorative.