6 month old touchy baby-naps irregular, wakes before dreamfeed

[Fireflysummer]

I am feeling really frustrated with my 6 month touchy LO. I have been keeping a very detailed record since she was born of her sleeps and feeds and as hard as I try to figure her out I can't.

Recently we have been finding that her naps are anywhere between 30-1.5 hrs with awake time being 2hr15 but it depends on what we are doing, (she gets easily overstimulated by things...most of the time). I sometimes tries to base it on sleep cues which is fussiness and a sort of jittery movements but even those don't seem reliable .

The other thing is she doesn't wake up crying but seems to be soothing herself back to sleep when I look at her in the monitor but it looks like she is sleeping. However she gets fussy at about her usual length based on when I first saw her wake so now I find myself constantly starring at the monitor to see when she wakes because sometimes she has laid there for an hour before crying .  Any thoughts?

She is waking before dreamfeed sporatically . And some days she has been dropping her catnaps and then going 4 hrs on A time before bed with no night wakings. Weird!

If she is getting 1.5 naps twice a day with 50/50 chance of going down for catnap should I be pushing out A time? And when you push out A time for 3 days and hold what should I expect, immediate change in nap length or the same until day 3??

Here's a good day routine, (otherwise if I don't catch her wake time in monitor or know what's going on with her (i.e. teething, overstimulated by something) I usually put her to bed too early or too late and get 30 and 45 min naps.)

6:30 wake
7:15 bf
8 breakfast
8:30 winddown
8:45 sleep

10:15 wake
10:45 bf
11:30 lunch
12:20 winddown
12:35 sleep

2:05 wake
2:30 bf
4:10 winddown
4:25 catnaps if lucky

5:10wake
5:30 dinner
6:30 feed
7 sleep

I love this forum and I appreciate anyone's thoughts on dealing with naps and evening wakings with a touchy baby.

[Fireflysummer]

Sorry for another question/ expressing my frustration but when I have been trying to extend her awake times or push back her bedtime because of daylight savings I find it hard to  hold those extensions consistently for 3 days because everyday is different with regards to the length of her naps so then I have to adjust her awake time and bedtime earlier if she hasn't slept well. Do you have ideas as to how to accomplish extending air time despite having different types of days most days??

Thanks again!

[jessmum46]

Hi there

First of all ((hugs)), I know very well that feeling of keeping a close eye on everything, feeling like there must be a pattern or a way to get it 'right'!  I really struggled with that with my first and know just how frustrating it can be. 

I think overall you are on the right lines needing to extend A time.  Average A time at 6-7 months is often getting towards 3 hours and the 3-2 nap transition typically occurs around this age.  Sound like your LO is headed that way if you are getting some CN refusal too.

My suggestion would be (as realistically babies are not robots and so every day will be different!) is to push from the start of the day.  So first A time make the jump to 2h30.  If the nap is good (1h+) then go for another 2h30 for the second A time.  If the nap is short, then reduce the A time, but not by much - maybe just 15 mins or so.  You may get an OT nap but often there is a better chance of a resettle when that happens.  Get the catnap (for now) any way you can - it's ok to do it 'on the go' in the car/pram etc if needs be just until you can push out A time a bit further.

Once you are closer to 2h45-3h A time you get to an awkward phase where 2 naps aren't often quite enough, but 3 is too many.  Don't panic!  It will settle down again, but it may be that you have a mixture of 2 and 3 nap days until it does.  Early bedtime is very useful during transitions.  I had the rule that if my second nap finished at 3pm or later, we skipped CN and did early bedtime at 6pm/3h A time.  If second nap finished before 2pm, we went for a catnap.  In the middle was tricky....but we'd try for a short time for a catnap, and if not abandon in favour of 6pm bedtime.  I believe we even did 5.30pm once or twice!!

There's a useful link here too which may help - https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=246541.0

Let us know if you have any more questions x

[Fireflysummer]

Thanks jessmum46! I appreciate some of your hands-on tips. I just wanted to make sure I am  understanding you fully.


So if her nap is let say 1hr vs. 1h30 hr. I would keep her up at the next awake time for 2h30, regardless that she might be more rested with the longer nap? And did you mean that if her first nap is under 1hr then for the next nap of the day I would reduce the length by 15mins from her existing length, or do you mean from the 2hr30 A mark? I often don't know what time she wakes because lies in bed without making a sound for maybe an hour or less so the morning nap will be harder to figure out than the afternoon ones.

And like TH says touchy babies have a difficult time resettling when awoken and that's her. She doesn't cry when she wakes early from a nap just sucks on her fingers and  fusses 20-45 mins later so I don't have a reason to do PU/PD. I just leave her until the 1hr30min mark but count her lying in bed as awake time.

Thank you!!

[Fireflysummer]

So her first nap today lasted 1h45 ,(YAH!!!) but I have no idea how long she was awake for. I saw her awake in video monitor at 6:20am but it looked like she had been awake for awhile. I just kept moving her when she got fussy and added extra 5 mins after seeing her really cranky. So based on 6:20 start she was wake 2hr15min but most likely more than that.

We went to a play group and she got fussy around 1h 30 mark but I moved her around and she fell asleep after 2h25 mins ( I thought I would reduce awake time a bit because of her personality with new environments but I am not sure if it was necessary.) She only slept for 55 mins so does that mean I could have pushed her a little longer or did I push her too long?

Should I try for 2h30 again tomorrow or push A another 15 mins since she slept well the first time?

Thank you!

[jessmum46]

I would stick with about 2h30 (or your best guess!) for now as that seemed to go fairly well today.  What a great first nap

Sorry if I was unclear before - after any reasonable nap (an hour or more) I would go for 2h30 A time for now, just so we can see how she responds to that.  If the nap is short, maybe go for around 2h15.  Just helps if we keep it fairly consistent so we can see what does and doesn't suit her x

[Fireflysummer]

Thanks for you advice!

So yesterday she had a total of 4h45 min of naptime as I put her down after 1h55 for second awake time due to being out at a playgroup and she slept for 1h30. I then put her down 1h30 mins later for her bedtime as she was quite fussy.  She then woke I think really early this morning as she started fussing at 6:30 when normally she will start 7am+. So maybe the esrly waking is from letting her sleep too many hours yesterday? .

E 7:15
S8:40 (1h45)

W 10:25
E 11:20
S 12:50 (55min)

W 1:45
E 2:45
S3:45 (1h30)

W 5:15
E6:20
S 6:55

Today she had a 2hr nap in the morning but then we had company for 1h30 mins and she got fussy quite early on and seemed "buzzed" so I put her down after 2h20 mins but it might have been too long because she was crying when I laid her down . She woke 45 mins later but seemed happy enough.

My question is for a touchy baby, do I be put her down earlier if we go places or see people because of extra stimulation or should I keep A time the same?

[becj86]

My question is for a touchy baby, do I be put her down earlier if we go places or see people because of extra stimulation or should I keep A time the same?

I would try to keep A time the same but perhaps do a slightly longer WD given she's probably overstimulated. Spend a bit of quiet time walking away from the distractions and helping her calm down before putting her down for a nap.

E 7:15S8:40 (1h45)

Did she wake at 7:15 and eat then? Its not clear from your post. If so, she needs more A time first thing in the morning. Waking progressively earlier or additional long happy night wakings in the early hours of the morning are signs that she needs to be awake longer for the first A time of the day.

Asleep for the night at 6:55 and awake at 6:30 is a perfectly reasonable night - a 12hr night is not a reasonable expectation for many babies at this age, especially if they're still taking three naps. The day should naturally get longer with increased A times before dropping the catnap when it will get shorter again.

[Fireflysummer]

That's good to know about keeping her awake as usual just providing longer winddown. I think she might be teething right now so she is showing sleepy / overtired signs quite early on so it's difficult to keep her up .

I didn't mention when she woke other than to say she made noises at 6:30 because that's my problem, she will lie quietly in bed for 5mins up to 1hr (based on naps) before fussing after waking. So at times I have woken before she has made noises and I see her on the video monitor lying there sucking on her fingers but I don't know how long she has been awake.

And that's a good point that at her age 12 hours night would be too much for her.

[becj86]

So at times I have woken before she has made noises and I see her on the video monitor lying there sucking on her fingers but I don't know how long she has been awake.

If she's lying there awake and not doing much, I'd count it as sleep, just for ease. I'm inclined to think that if you push her first A time a bit, she might sleep longer in the morning but that's assuming BT is around 11hr before ideal WU.

[Fireflysummer]

 Thanks!

Her morning naps have been great lately and if I based them on when I heard her she has only been up for 2 hr10 mins. It's the afternoon nap that gets wonky or she doesn't want a catnap so she is ready for bed at 5:45.  And we'll frankly the last few days have been strange because she has been crying a lot and fussing almost non stop and those are my only signs she is tired. The trouble those signs also indicate hunger and teething and Wonder weeks.

Anyway, do I need to keep pushing out her A time if she is taking 1.5hr to 2 hr naps?

Thank you!

[becj86]

Anyway, do I need to keep pushing out her A time if she is taking 1.5hr to 2 hr naps?

No. What I'm saying is that if she wakes at 6am and you're not ok with that and you'd prefer 7am and are ok with an 8pm BT, one way to get her to shift her whole day later is to make the first A time 10mins longer (not changing the rest) which will entice her to sleep later in the morning and slowly shift the whole frame of your day later.

[Fireflysummer]

Hi,

Thanks for your help, although I found your words gave off a tone of impatience!

I haven't responded because despite me trying to push out her times or reduce A times or figure a pattern or cues, my LO is still sleeping at times for 1h30 and at others times 30 mins and sometimes she sleeps well in the evening and other times we have to do PU/PD for an hour even though the day is similar to other days. When I have pushed out her A times she gets so overtired and only sleeps 30 mins or goes to sleep fine and has 1h30 min nap but then the next time gets overtired early on...or something. There's lots of crying to put her to sleep.


I kind of feel helpless and don't think I will be able to help her sleep because she is so variable in her cues and A time lengths. I have tried pushing out her A time even though she seems overtired and it has been a wreck. She cries a lot, sleeps for 30-45 mins or doesn't nap at all. No two days or A times seem the same despite being obsessed with watching her and recording times, etc. I guess I need to accept she's a touchy baby who isn't easy to help sleep.

[becj86]

Sorry I sounded impatient, that was not my intent at all. I just wanted to be clear as I thought perhaps I'd not made sense.

It might be worth writing out a few days of her EAS - we might be able to see some patterns and offer some advice.

For your reference, general rules of thumb are 30min = OT;  45min = UT. This obviously isn't the case for evey baby but its somewhere to start.

Have you had any luck resettling her when she wakes at 30min? Often those are easier to resettle than the 45min ones.

Has she slept better than this before or has she always been tricky? Wondering if maybe there's some food introduction that's caused her some issue or she is maybe teething or going through a developmental leap.

[Fireflysummer]

Thanks! Us "friendly" Canadians may just not be as straight to the point in how we talk! 😀

I haven't tried resettling the few times she has awoken because I have a two year old LO that I don't want to leave on her own for 30 mins while I resettle . I could try if the oldest is napping.

She is pretty much always been a tricky sleeper. She did A LOT of crying before bed for the first three months and shush Pat was too much for her for the longest time. We tried a soother, walking her,etc but they all became a prop until shush Pat finally started working. And having two 1h30 min naps has been less frequent than the normal. My oldest daughter was way easier at having long naps than this LO. I have been wondering if she is teething since she has been grumpy and she wasn't in a Wonder Week. She was sick a couple of days ago but it has passed quickly.

As for the general rule,that's what I understood too, but today she had a 30 min nap and when my dh tried resettling she started cooing and playing when he came in her room. Then she stayed up longer than she normally does and probably could have gone longer because her next nap was 1h15 min long. After that nap she seemed more grumpy and wanted to have a catnap after being up for less than 2 hours. She did have a bad night last night, waking at 7:30PM and not settling under 9pm then up at 2:30am and 5:30, then slept in until 8:50AM.

I will give a 7 days and see what you think ( I will only write down the times I breastfeed, not include solids for ease)


Day 1:
6:35 already awake for some time
7:20 E
8:30 S for 45 mins

9:15 W
11 E
11:40 S from 1h30 (started winddown at 2h15)

1:10 W
2:30 E
4:40 S for 30 mins ( winddown at 2h30)

5:10 W
6:00 E
6:15 S
 
10:30 DF

Day2:
7:10 heard but probably awake for awhile
7:20 E
9:55 S for 30 mins ( went to dr. Appt)

10:25 W
11:20 E
12:35 for 1h30  (laid down at 2hr mark)

2:05 W
3:10 E
4:30 tried for a catnaps with PUPD but wouldn't sleep
5:15 E
S
6:00 S

10:30 DF

Day 3:
6:55 saw awake in monitor
7:35 E
8:50 A for 1h25

10:15 W
10:35 E
12:45 S for 30 mins

1:15 W
2:00 E
3:15 S for 1h15 ( she was grumpy the whole time, laid her down at 1h30 mark but laid awake for 30 mins)

4:30 W
4:50 E
6:50 E
7:00 S

10:35 DF

Day 4:
5:40 W and E full feed

8;00 W (I woke her)
8:20 E
10:50 S for 1h20

12:10 W
12:30 E
2:30 S for 40 mins ( she was crying at 1h30 mark but thought it was too early so I held her off)

3:10 W
4:00 E
4:40 tried giving her a nap since she looked super hyper with PUPS but wouldnt so tried again and.
6:00 S for 35 mins (I woke her)

6:35 W
7:00 E
7:30 S

10:15 woke up, had a soaked outfit from wet diaper so had to change her completely, Took 1hr30 mins to settle her to sleep after giving DF

Next day had runny nose and was very difficult to get to nap so assumed she had a cold but then all symptoms left the next day. No signs of teeth

Day 6:
4:30Am E

7:20 saw awake but could have been awake earlier
7:55 E
9:15 S for 45 mins

10:00 W
11:30  E
12:30 S for 2h15 (woke up after 1h10 but we think she resettled)

2:45 W ( she seemed more grumpier)
2:55 E
4:45 tried to catnaps but no go
5:15 tried again but not willing to nap
5:50 E
6:15 S

7:45 W and E took 1h30 mins to resettle with PUPD. ( I found a plastic tag under her armpits the next day so she could have been bothered by that??)

10:45 DF

day 7:
1:50AM W, tried PUPd for 10mins but gave in and fed for a good amount of time
5:50 W and fed same amount of time

8:50am W (we all slept in)
9:00 E
10:50 S for 30 mins but seemed happy when she woke

11:20 W
1:20 E ( didn't seem that hungry)
2:00 S for 1h15 ( seemed ok but thought I should put her to bed)

3:15 W
5:15 S for 30 mins since she seemed hyper after 1h45 (although sometimes that means nothing)   and she was more grumpier during this A time than the last one. I was surprised she slept.

5:45 W
6:35 E (went to long by accident but she didn't seem to mind)
7:05 S

9:30 W so fed DF and she stayed awake until 10:30 just lying in bed quietly

Hope this all makes sense and you can figure out something from this.

Btw, If I put her to bed earlier than 2,h30+ it was usually because she was getting excited and screeching or she was rubbing her eyes or crying.

Thank for your time!

[Fireflysummer]

Just wanted to give an update:

2:15am she woke, I did PUPD for 30 mins , she settled but woke again at 3:15 so I gave her a couple mins on the breast since I wasn't sure why she was up
6:50am saw her awake in monitor
8:50 S for 1h50 ( she was acting excitable for 15 mins before I started winddown)

10:40 W
12:45 S for 1h15 ( she was acting excitable for 35 mins before started winddown)

2pm W
4:05 S for 30 mins (she seemed excitable so I held off for 15 mins and then put her down )

4:45 W ( she was crying when I laid her down on playmate and I realized she was teething with rubbing her nose a lot and willing to chew on teething ring. She was pretty excitable again so put her to bed at 6:15 but that was too early because she laid in bed for 30mins)

So the A times have been 2hrs that seem to have produce decent naps  for an almost 7month old. But then that could be because of teething and catching up from OT from past days???

[becj86]

Ok, so I need to really sit down and think about those 7 days, thanks - that's great info.

What I will say is that I must've missed the 6mo thing... these A times are quite short. Its not necessarily a problem if that's just how she is but I suspect some of your NWs are related to short A times as well. I can reasonably confidently say I'll be suggesting to increase A times significantly so if you want to start off doing that, you can.

With seeming excitable - she may be overstimulated (difficult to avoid with a 2yo around) rather than OT so perhaps don't rely so much on that as a sleep cue - she may not be sending out any true sleep cues at the moment because she's just not tired enough to need to. For now, I'd aim for a minimum of 2.5hr and expect 3hr to be closer to the mark of needing a nap though be aware that if you increase her A time that quickly, she may have OT 30min wakings from naps and need resettling for a few days just from the habit of having A times that are so short. In my opinion, its much better to just do one big jump to 3hr then tweak from there rather than increasing by 10-15min every week or so because its quicker and you don't run the risk of getting into very complex OT/UT loops which are just a nightmare to sort.

[Fireflysummer]

Thanks for your response! What I don't get is why I am getting  good naps at really short A times then. Is it because she is teething, since she is showing lots of signs that she might) or making up for OT somewhere? It's weird to me!

Also when you say push A times to 3 hr do you mean all A times or just the first one for a few days, then move onto next A time after that, etc? And do u put her to bed earlier because she has had disruptive naps or keep same bedtime?

It makes sense that she may be overstimulated vs OT so I guess I should do a longer winddown if I keep her up longer.

 Here was today:

I have been giving her Advil for teething.

Today:
2:40 AM W (did Pu/Pd twice in 1hr because she settled but laid awake then started to cry again)

7:30 W
7:55 E
10:05 S for 1h15 ( didn't seem too tired even as I was laying her down but she cried earlier on so that's why I was doing winddown

11:15 W
11:40 E
1:15 S for 2hr 20 but she woke up after 20 mins and resettled herself so I guess she was OT After being only 2 hrs???

3:30 W
3:45 E
5:45 E since she looked tired and figured she wouldn't take another nap)
7:15 S ( laid her down at 6pm but she was squirming A LOT in her bed for next hour and needed PUPD...guess she needed a catnaps after 2 hr A time??

She has been waking crying this evening and resettling herself.

[becj86]

What I don't get is why I am getting  good naps at really short A times then. Is it because she is teething, since she is showing lots of signs that she might) or making up for OT somewhere? It's weird to be!

Yes, so this can be habitual. It wreaks havoc elsewhere with NWs and such and is often broken sleep with resettling required. It can also be that you got a spot in the OT/UT loop that meant she slept well at that time - so catching up on the OT.

S for 2hr 20 but she woke up after 20 mins and resettled herself so I guess she was OT After being only 2 hrs???

20mins is far more often OS or pain than OT.

7:15 S ( laid her down at 6pm but she was squirming A LOT in her bed for next hour and needed PUPD...guess she needed a catnaps after 2 hr A time??

I suspect actually she was UT at 6pm (2.5hr A off a 2:20 nap) so squirmy/not going to sleep but then became OT after sleep window is missed. Waking crying through the evening is suggestive of OT from the 3:45 A time to when she actually fell asleep, totally reasonable.

Also when you say push A times to 3 hr do you mean all A times or just the first one for a few days

I would probably just do all of them based on what you've written. Certainly if you weren't sure you could do the 30min resettles after every one, just do the first A time then move on to the others as well but I think it'll be more effective to just do them all at once.

[Fireflysummer]

My dh said the same thing about why 2hr A was producing good naps . Sometimes he surprises me with his intuition. !😀

So today I did 3hr A times, although morning is always a guess as to how long she has been up before I head her

No NW

6:40 Heard her making noise
7:00 E
9:05 S for 1h35 (YeAH)

10:40 W
10:45 E
1:50 S for 1h30 ( she waa crying a big after I left but settled herself) YEAH!!
 
3:20 W
3:40 E
6:05 E
6:30 S ( she took 10 mins to fall asleep but she was a lot more calm than last night)

We didn't hear from her in the evening. It than she woke at 3;30 talking. At 4:15 she started crying so I went in and she had a dirty diaper and I had to change everything. She seemed somewhat hyper. I gave her 2 mins of feeding just to settle her a bit but apparently it didn't work because for another hour she kept waking and talking or crying . Not sure what that was about.

I couldn't believe how well she did! Thanks for your recommendations becj86!!

[becj86]

Yay for the great naps

she woke at 3;30 talking. At 4:15 she started crying so I went in and she had a dirty diaper and I had to change everything. She seemed somewhat hyper. I gave her 2 mins of feeding just to settle her a bit but apparently it didn't work because for another hour she kept waking and talking or crying . Not sure what that was about.

This is quite a long, relatively happy waking in the early hours of the morning - big sign to increase that first A time - given how you're doing with the rest of the A times, I'd go for 2:45min and err on the side of 3hr.
Absolutely reasonable to feed at that point too as she's of an age where a NF is normal.

[Fireflysummer]

Ok I think you are right she needs longer awake times to stop the NWs.

Yesterday was decent. She had 1h15 nap in the morning but it could be because her older sister screamed around that time. Same thing with today. 1h15 nap and sisters creamed around that time 😫. I put her down 3 hr later and she woke at 35 min mark. I am trying to resettle but she seems wide awake, ( could be the adrenaline rush from OT??). She looked like she was resettling but then she awoke again (or stopped sucking in her fingers) 5 mins later and is now hanging out in her bed. What's that about??? I have a hard time believing she needs to go longer, although she will be 7months in a few days,if that makes a difference.

[Fireflysummer]

I never got her back to sleep and stopped trying after an 1h30 mins she was suppose to be sleeping. You know we have only resettled her once when she has awoke early. I thinkTH says it's common with touchy babies.

[becj86]

I put her down 3 hr later and she woke at 35 min mark.

Sounds like an OT waking - really easy to resettle if you're there straight away, difficult to resettle once LO is worked up.

I have a hard time believing she needs to go longer, although she will be 7months in a few days,if that makes a difference.

Average at 6 months is 2:45-3hr and A time only go up from there. 3hr may not be enough - 1:15 naps do suggest she's still a touch UT but with big sister potentially having woken her, its not so cut and dried. I know it seems like a lot more than she was doing very recently but that's because her A times were just way too short. She's still on the low end of average for her age which may be what she needs but may not.

[Fireflysummer]

I find it weird that she might need more than 3 hrs A time because when u look at BW forum sample routines for 7month old they aren't doing more than 3 hrs, some less than that.

Be side she seemed so worked up for the next A time, I put her down at 2h05 since I figured no matter what she probably wouldn't sleep that long in the evening ( down at 4:25) but she only slept 35 mins again. OT again? I am not sure when to put her down when she has only slept 30 mins.

Thanks so much for your quick replies!

[Fireflysummer]

Also...

I wasn't sure when to put her down when she woke at 5pm because a 12 hr day would have had her in bed by 6:30 but after a 30 min nap it was recommended to me to put her down no earlier than 2 hrs later which would make it 7pm. It doesn't make sense since she only slept a total of 2h15 of sleep today and yet she would be going to bed later than if she slept 3 hr in the day. Can you clarify that for me??

Thanks again!

[becj86]

A 12hr day is not something to hang onto at this age - somewhere between 12 and 13.5 though if she's newly dropped the CN and gone to 2 naps, 12-12.5hr day is probably more realistic. I'm not sure the 6:30 vs 7 BT would be a huge difference in the long run.

After a short nap, its very hard to work out what LO's need since it varies so much - some do fine with the next A time being reduced by 10-15mins, some people reduce the A time by half the missed sleep so if she slept 30mins but should have slept 1.5hr, they'd reduce the A time by 30mins - this works for some babies. I wouldn't reduce the A time too much more than that because otherwise she may be UT and perpetuate that cycle.

I wasn't sure when to put her down when she woke at 5pm because a 12 hr day would have had her in bed by 6:30 but after a 30 min nap it was recommended to me to put her down no earlier than 2 hrs later which would make it 7pm. It doesn't make sense since she only slept a total of 2h15 of sleep today and yet she would be going to bed later than if she slept 3 hr in the day. Can you clarify that for me??

Its hard to comment without knowing how the day went, sorry. I think it would have been difficult to get her to go to sleep at 6:30 after she woke at 5. Some babies do just have a time of night that they go to sleep regardless but they're not as common as those that vary BT a little based on how their day has been.

[Fireflysummer]

Ok so here was the day I was referring to:

6:30 A
6:55 E
9:30 S for 1h15 bit could have been sister screaming

10:45 W
11:00 E
1:45 S for 35 mins (tried resettling with PUPD but it didn't work, because honestly I don't know what I would do to settle her as she is waking. I think I would be more of a distraction. If you have ideas I am willing to try them).

2:20 W ( breathing quickly the whole time awake)
3:15 E
4:25 S for 35 mins

5:00 W
6:10 E
6:40 S (laid her down at 6:25 because super excitable and cranky)

10:15 W so fave DF

Next day:
3:30 W did PUPD ,she settled , stayed awake until 4:20 then cries more , gave her Advil in case teething and she seemed hungry )
7:30 am heard her
7:55 E
9:55 S for 30 mins (she seemed to get more cranky as time went on; tried PUPD for 30 mins but didn't work)

10:25 W
11:15 E
1:05 S for 1h35 ( talking a bit before falling asleep)

2:40 W
3:15 E
5:00 S for 30 mins ( she seemed cranky)

5:30 W
6:15 E
6:45 S ( laid her down at 6:30)

9:40 W so gave DF

Today:
3:40am W did PUPd then realized she had a wet back so changed her and fed her a bit at 4:25am

6:55 heard her
7:15 E
9:35 S for 1h10 ( decided to follow her cues a bit more after the day before she 30 min morning nap)

10:45 W
11:30 E
1:30 S for maybe somewhere between 30-60 mins but not sure because she kept moving in bed but resettling after 30 mins )

2:00-2:30 W
3:00 E
5:05 S for 40 mins

5:45 W (seemed ready for bed from the beginning, crying upon waking )
7:00 E
7:20 S but reawoke at 7:40

I really appreciate your patience and endurance in helping me becj86!! I just don't know if I will figure out what is the sweet spot to get longer naps .

And the other thing that's annoying me is why she is all of a sudden having NW for most days for the past two weeks. I noticed that the days she didn't have NWs, the day before she usually got better sleep. She seems to wake at around 3:30am so if it happens again tonight than I will do W2S but some nights she doesn't wake at night or its at a different time so I don't know. And when I do feed her I only give her a min or 2 of bf and she doesn't seem to want anymore or seem vigorous at her sucking so I don't think it's hunger although I have upped her solids quantity.

[becj86]

1:45 S for 35 mins (tried resettling with PUPD but it didn't work, because honestly I don't know what I would do to settle her as she is waking. I think I would be more of a distraction. If you have ideas I am willing to try them).

Ok, so I am having anything leap out at me as an obvious explanation for that 35min waking. I found that whatever I used to help LO fall asleep was helpful in getting him back to sleep so shush/pat or similar. Hold through the jolts was also useful at times. Is she waking and screaming straight away?

2:20 W ( breathing quickly the whole time awake)

This is interesting - does this happen often? I just wonder if she was scared? Certainly the developmental leap around this time involves LOs learning about distance and I found personally that my DS would stir and then wake and be very upset if anything was different than it was before he went to sleep (mum gone, white noise off, etc. - so if I had been there with him when he fell asleep, I could resettle if I was fast enough but often he was too worked up by the time I got to him.

Am I right in thinking you're not feeding when she wakes at ~3:30 and hasn't had a NF since ~10pm? Its reasonable for her to be feeding X2 overnight, so might be worth feeding. Having upped her solids may be what's causing that hunger - solids has less calories than milk, so actually the more she takes and the less space she has for milk in the day, the more she may want to feed at night. Is she having solids in the evening? Sometimes babies wake in the night because they can feel the food moving through their gut and its 'new'. I've seen a few babies go back to sleeping as they had previously just by taking out night-time solids and adding them in again a few weeks later.

And when I do feed her I only give her a min or 2 of bf and she doesn't seem to want anymore or seem vigorous at her sucking so I don't think it's hunger although I have upped her solids quantity.

She may not need to be sucking as vigorously at night given your supply and thus flow is highest at this time.

3:30 W did PUPD ,she settled , stayed awake until 4:20 then cries more , gave her Advil in case teething and she seemed hungry )7:30 am heard her7:55 E9:55 S for 30 mins (she seemed to get more cranky as time went on; tried PUPD for 30 mins but didn't work)

Is she trying to sort out a new milestone? Crankiness can be from sources other than tiredness - eg. frustration.

6:55 heard her 7:15 E9:35 S for 1h10 ( decided to follow her cues a bit more after the day before she 30 min morning nap)

This here is really obviously UT - I'm not sure what the deal is with the 30min nap the day before off a similar A time. I think keeping those A times up at 3hr is going to be your best bet - certainly that's where you're getting your best naps. Keeping it consistent even after poorer night is important for discouraging those long wakings.

[Fireflysummer]

Sorry I haven't responded. Had company and LO's routine got all out of wack.

As for your questions,  she doesn't usually wake screaming hence why I stare at monitor a lot to find out when A time starts. I tried shushing her as she woke but it didn't work.

Breathing quickly happens often but only for a few minutes at a time when she is excited !

As for NF, no I was trying not to fed her since DF was at 10pm. I don't find my flow very high at night. I kinda feel empty at night. I was thinking of dropping the DF since TH recommends it but I guess I won't if she still is hungry?. The last two days I have been trying to feed her often during the day so she gets most her calories during daytime hours and doesn't get in the habit of shifting some of her caloric intake to night time. Also that makes sense what you said about solids having less calories than BM. I reduced her solids so I am only feeding solids earlier in the day.

As for the crankiness she just lies on her mat or sits up and I move her when she fusses but she still was fussing. I think it's teething because she has been rubbing mouth and nose a lot these past weeks but not everyday.


As I said earlier when company was here she was super overstimulated and i had no idea what to do with her. I put her Rd to bed earlier and she would sometimes wake after 30 mins and sometimes after an hour. So frustrating!

Today there was no company here.  She was up for 1h30 in the previous night from teething, i believe, so we did PUPd and gave medication.  I put her down after 3h10 for first A time because the day before she did 3 h A time and only had 1hr nap and then the next nap was 2 hr after 3hr A time. She woke up after 30mins today so I guess an hour sleep after 3hA time is better than 30 mins after 3h15 min A time. I kept her up for 2h30 next time and she slept for 1hr. I kept her up for 3 hr the next time and she slept for 30 mins. Again, I didn't know how long to keep her up until her bedtime since she was up through the night so I put her to bed around her usual time.

Here's the day:

2:30am W PuPd for 1h30

6:45 W
7:00 E
9:20 E
9:55 S

10:25 W
11:30 E
12:45 S

1:50 W
2:00 E
4:00 E
4:45 S

5:15 W
6;35 E
7:15 S (laid her down at 7pm)

So is 2 hrs total of sleep in the day enough to have her stay awake for another 2.5 hrs after her 30 mins catnaps I'm the evening?

[becj86]

Breathing quickly happens often but only for a few minutes at a time when she is excited !As for NF, no I was trying not to fed her since DF was at 10pm. I don't find my flow very high at night. I kinda feel empty at night. I was thinking of dropping the DF since TH recommends it but I guess I won't if she still is hungry?. The last two days I have been trying to feed her often during the day so she gets most her calories during daytime hours and doesn't get in the habit of shifting some of her caloric intake to night time. Also that makes sense what you said about solids having less calories than BM. I reduced her solids so I am only feeding solids earlier in the day.As for the crankiness she just lies on her mat or sits up and I

Yes, you don't want her UT for BT...

she doesn't usually wake screaming hence why I stare at monitor a lot to find out when A time starts.

I wouldn't worry too much about being that exact. I would let her tell you when she's ready to get up and count time she spends lying in bed quietly as sleep time, TBH. Its also not a bad idea to have her get used to lying in bed quietly - definitely a skill you will want when she's a bit older.

2:30am W PuPd for 1h30

How was she behaving here? Was she just awake, awake and happy or awake and unhappy? If just awake and quiet/happy, you can just leave her to it.

I think 3:10-3:15 sounds like the go for her based on what you've said. Still no luck with resettling the 30min wakings... you've tried using the same method she went to sleep with, right?

[Fireflysummer]

So just to clarify you are saying if she hasn't had much sleep during the day I should still keep her up for 2.5 hrs after her last catnap even if that bedtime is the same as if she had slept good naps?

As for NW, I only go to her if she is crying a lot so no she isn't happy. She can't seem to settle without nursing even for a minute because we have been up for 3 hrs in night trying pupd. She will stop crying but every 15-30 mins start crying again .

Do I drop dreamfeed if she is waking at night?

[Fireflysummer]

Also previous to turning 6 months old she was sleeping through the night the month before so that is why I hesitate to feed her at night again. I started giving solids shortly after she turned 5months

[becj86]

So just to clarify you are saying if she hasn't had much sleep during the day I should still keep her up for 2.5 hrs after her last catnap even if that bedtime is the same as if she had slept good naps?

Yes.

As for NW, I only go to her if she is crying a lot so no she isn't happy. She can't seem to settle without nursing even for a minute because we have been up for 3 hrs in night trying pupd. She will stop crying but every 15-30 mins start crying again

Babies honestly don't do this for no reason. Is she sore? or hungry? (Definitely possible she's hungry as PUPD can burn a lot of calories... also there is often a growth spurt at ~6 months where LOs feed more often at night again.)

When is the DF in relation to BT? Just wondering if its disrupting her sleep...

[Fireflysummer]

She may be sore. She has been rubbing her nose and ears and whinning during A tim, especially the second A time for the past month so j am not sure if that can be teething, constipation of something else. I have brought her to the doctor's twice to ensure it wasn't an ear infection. As for hungwr,she is now almost 7.5 months old. And I have been upping her food intake during the day and because I am weaning her off DF I am cluster feeding during the day and  the DF is getting closer to bedtime ( currently at 9:15).

[becj86]

And I have been upping her food intake during the day

Milk or solids? Solids are lower in calories than milk so if solids at the expense of milk, she may be hungry.

Has reflux been part of the picture for her?

With weaning the DF, are you reducing the amount? My understanding was that the DF stayed at the same time of night so as not to disrupt sleep and the volume is reduced. I will check - DF never worked for us so didnt have to wean it.