6 month old touchy baby-naps irregular, wakes before dreamfeed

[Fireflysummer]

Just wanted to give an update:

2:15am she woke, I did PUPD for 30 mins , she settled but woke again at 3:15 so I gave her a couple mins on the breast since I wasn't sure why she was up
6:50am saw her awake in monitor
8:50 S for 1h50 ( she was acting excitable for 15 mins before I started winddown)

10:40 W
12:45 S for 1h15 ( she was acting excitable for 35 mins before started winddown)

2pm W
4:05 S for 30 mins (she seemed excitable so I held off for 15 mins and then put her down )

4:45 W ( she was crying when I laid her down on playmate and I realized she was teething with rubbing her nose a lot and willing to chew on teething ring. She was pretty excitable again so put her to bed at 6:15 but that was too early because she laid in bed for 30mins)

So the A times have been 2hrs that seem to have produce decent naps  for an almost 7month old. But then that could be because of teething and catching up from OT from past days???

[becj86]

Ok, so I need to really sit down and think about those 7 days, thanks - that's great info.

What I will say is that I must've missed the 6mo thing... these A times are quite short. Its not necessarily a problem if that's just how she is but I suspect some of your NWs are related to short A times as well. I can reasonably confidently say I'll be suggesting to increase A times significantly so if you want to start off doing that, you can.

With seeming excitable - she may be overstimulated (difficult to avoid with a 2yo around) rather than OT so perhaps don't rely so much on that as a sleep cue - she may not be sending out any true sleep cues at the moment because she's just not tired enough to need to. For now, I'd aim for a minimum of 2.5hr and expect 3hr to be closer to the mark of needing a nap though be aware that if you increase her A time that quickly, she may have OT 30min wakings from naps and need resettling for a few days just from the habit of having A times that are so short. In my opinion, its much better to just do one big jump to 3hr then tweak from there rather than increasing by 10-15min every week or so because its quicker and you don't run the risk of getting into very complex OT/UT loops which are just a nightmare to sort.

[Fireflysummer]

Thanks for your response! What I don't get is why I am getting  good naps at really short A times then. Is it because she is teething, since she is showing lots of signs that she might) or making up for OT somewhere? It's weird to me!

Also when you say push A times to 3 hr do you mean all A times or just the first one for a few days, then move onto next A time after that, etc? And do u put her to bed earlier because she has had disruptive naps or keep same bedtime?

It makes sense that she may be overstimulated vs OT so I guess I should do a longer winddown if I keep her up longer.

 Here was today:

I have been giving her Advil for teething.

Today:
2:40 AM W (did Pu/Pd twice in 1hr because she settled but laid awake then started to cry again)

7:30 W
7:55 E
10:05 S for 1h15 ( didn't seem too tired even as I was laying her down but she cried earlier on so that's why I was doing winddown

11:15 W
11:40 E
1:15 S for 2hr 20 but she woke up after 20 mins and resettled herself so I guess she was OT After being only 2 hrs???

3:30 W
3:45 E
5:45 E since she looked tired and figured she wouldn't take another nap)
7:15 S ( laid her down at 6pm but she was squirming A LOT in her bed for next hour and needed PUPD...guess she needed a catnaps after 2 hr A time??

She has been waking crying this evening and resettling herself.

[becj86]

What I don't get is why I am getting  good naps at really short A times then. Is it because she is teething, since she is showing lots of signs that she might) or making up for OT somewhere? It's weird to be!

Yes, so this can be habitual. It wreaks havoc elsewhere with NWs and such and is often broken sleep with resettling required. It can also be that you got a spot in the OT/UT loop that meant she slept well at that time - so catching up on the OT.

S for 2hr 20 but she woke up after 20 mins and resettled herself so I guess she was OT After being only 2 hrs???

20mins is far more often OS or pain than OT.

7:15 S ( laid her down at 6pm but she was squirming A LOT in her bed for next hour and needed PUPD...guess she needed a catnaps after 2 hr A time??

I suspect actually she was UT at 6pm (2.5hr A off a 2:20 nap) so squirmy/not going to sleep but then became OT after sleep window is missed. Waking crying through the evening is suggestive of OT from the 3:45 A time to when she actually fell asleep, totally reasonable.

Also when you say push A times to 3 hr do you mean all A times or just the first one for a few days

I would probably just do all of them based on what you've written. Certainly if you weren't sure you could do the 30min resettles after every one, just do the first A time then move on to the others as well but I think it'll be more effective to just do them all at once.

[Fireflysummer]

My dh said the same thing about why 2hr A was producing good naps . Sometimes he surprises me with his intuition. !😀

So today I did 3hr A times, although morning is always a guess as to how long she has been up before I head her

No NW

6:40 Heard her making noise
7:00 E
9:05 S for 1h35 (YeAH)

10:40 W
10:45 E
1:50 S for 1h30 ( she waa crying a big after I left but settled herself) YEAH!!
 
3:20 W
3:40 E
6:05 E
6:30 S ( she took 10 mins to fall asleep but she was a lot more calm than last night)

We didn't hear from her in the evening. It than she woke at 3;30 talking. At 4:15 she started crying so I went in and she had a dirty diaper and I had to change everything. She seemed somewhat hyper. I gave her 2 mins of feeding just to settle her a bit but apparently it didn't work because for another hour she kept waking and talking or crying . Not sure what that was about.

I couldn't believe how well she did! Thanks for your recommendations becj86!!

[becj86]

Yay for the great naps

she woke at 3;30 talking. At 4:15 she started crying so I went in and she had a dirty diaper and I had to change everything. She seemed somewhat hyper. I gave her 2 mins of feeding just to settle her a bit but apparently it didn't work because for another hour she kept waking and talking or crying . Not sure what that was about.

This is quite a long, relatively happy waking in the early hours of the morning - big sign to increase that first A time - given how you're doing with the rest of the A times, I'd go for 2:45min and err on the side of 3hr.
Absolutely reasonable to feed at that point too as she's of an age where a NF is normal.

[Fireflysummer]

Ok I think you are right she needs longer awake times to stop the NWs.

Yesterday was decent. She had 1h15 nap in the morning but it could be because her older sister screamed around that time. Same thing with today. 1h15 nap and sisters creamed around that time 😫. I put her down 3 hr later and she woke at 35 min mark. I am trying to resettle but she seems wide awake, ( could be the adrenaline rush from OT??). She looked like she was resettling but then she awoke again (or stopped sucking in her fingers) 5 mins later and is now hanging out in her bed. What's that about??? I have a hard time believing she needs to go longer, although she will be 7months in a few days,if that makes a difference.

[Fireflysummer]

I never got her back to sleep and stopped trying after an 1h30 mins she was suppose to be sleeping. You know we have only resettled her once when she has awoke early. I thinkTH says it's common with touchy babies.

[becj86]

I put her down 3 hr later and she woke at 35 min mark.

Sounds like an OT waking - really easy to resettle if you're there straight away, difficult to resettle once LO is worked up.

I have a hard time believing she needs to go longer, although she will be 7months in a few days,if that makes a difference.

Average at 6 months is 2:45-3hr and A time only go up from there. 3hr may not be enough - 1:15 naps do suggest she's still a touch UT but with big sister potentially having woken her, its not so cut and dried. I know it seems like a lot more than she was doing very recently but that's because her A times were just way too short. She's still on the low end of average for her age which may be what she needs but may not.

[Fireflysummer]

I find it weird that she might need more than 3 hrs A time because when u look at BW forum sample routines for 7month old they aren't doing more than 3 hrs, some less than that.

Be side she seemed so worked up for the next A time, I put her down at 2h05 since I figured no matter what she probably wouldn't sleep that long in the evening ( down at 4:25) but she only slept 35 mins again. OT again? I am not sure when to put her down when she has only slept 30 mins.

Thanks so much for your quick replies!

[Fireflysummer]

Also...

I wasn't sure when to put her down when she woke at 5pm because a 12 hr day would have had her in bed by 6:30 but after a 30 min nap it was recommended to me to put her down no earlier than 2 hrs later which would make it 7pm. It doesn't make sense since she only slept a total of 2h15 of sleep today and yet she would be going to bed later than if she slept 3 hr in the day. Can you clarify that for me??

Thanks again!

[becj86]

A 12hr day is not something to hang onto at this age - somewhere between 12 and 13.5 though if she's newly dropped the CN and gone to 2 naps, 12-12.5hr day is probably more realistic. I'm not sure the 6:30 vs 7 BT would be a huge difference in the long run.

After a short nap, its very hard to work out what LO's need since it varies so much - some do fine with the next A time being reduced by 10-15mins, some people reduce the A time by half the missed sleep so if she slept 30mins but should have slept 1.5hr, they'd reduce the A time by 30mins - this works for some babies. I wouldn't reduce the A time too much more than that because otherwise she may be UT and perpetuate that cycle.

I wasn't sure when to put her down when she woke at 5pm because a 12 hr day would have had her in bed by 6:30 but after a 30 min nap it was recommended to me to put her down no earlier than 2 hrs later which would make it 7pm. It doesn't make sense since she only slept a total of 2h15 of sleep today and yet she would be going to bed later than if she slept 3 hr in the day. Can you clarify that for me??

Its hard to comment without knowing how the day went, sorry. I think it would have been difficult to get her to go to sleep at 6:30 after she woke at 5. Some babies do just have a time of night that they go to sleep regardless but they're not as common as those that vary BT a little based on how their day has been.

[Fireflysummer]

Ok so here was the day I was referring to:

6:30 A
6:55 E
9:30 S for 1h15 bit could have been sister screaming

10:45 W
11:00 E
1:45 S for 35 mins (tried resettling with PUPD but it didn't work, because honestly I don't know what I would do to settle her as she is waking. I think I would be more of a distraction. If you have ideas I am willing to try them).

2:20 W ( breathing quickly the whole time awake)
3:15 E
4:25 S for 35 mins

5:00 W
6:10 E
6:40 S (laid her down at 6:25 because super excitable and cranky)

10:15 W so fave DF

Next day:
3:30 W did PUPD ,she settled , stayed awake until 4:20 then cries more , gave her Advil in case teething and she seemed hungry )
7:30 am heard her
7:55 E
9:55 S for 30 mins (she seemed to get more cranky as time went on; tried PUPD for 30 mins but didn't work)

10:25 W
11:15 E
1:05 S for 1h35 ( talking a bit before falling asleep)

2:40 W
3:15 E
5:00 S for 30 mins ( she seemed cranky)

5:30 W
6:15 E
6:45 S ( laid her down at 6:30)

9:40 W so gave DF

Today:
3:40am W did PUPd then realized she had a wet back so changed her and fed her a bit at 4:25am

6:55 heard her
7:15 E
9:35 S for 1h10 ( decided to follow her cues a bit more after the day before she 30 min morning nap)

10:45 W
11:30 E
1:30 S for maybe somewhere between 30-60 mins but not sure because she kept moving in bed but resettling after 30 mins )

2:00-2:30 W
3:00 E
5:05 S for 40 mins

5:45 W (seemed ready for bed from the beginning, crying upon waking )
7:00 E
7:20 S but reawoke at 7:40

I really appreciate your patience and endurance in helping me becj86!! I just don't know if I will figure out what is the sweet spot to get longer naps .

And the other thing that's annoying me is why she is all of a sudden having NW for most days for the past two weeks. I noticed that the days she didn't have NWs, the day before she usually got better sleep. She seems to wake at around 3:30am so if it happens again tonight than I will do W2S but some nights she doesn't wake at night or its at a different time so I don't know. And when I do feed her I only give her a min or 2 of bf and she doesn't seem to want anymore or seem vigorous at her sucking so I don't think it's hunger although I have upped her solids quantity.

[becj86]

1:45 S for 35 mins (tried resettling with PUPD but it didn't work, because honestly I don't know what I would do to settle her as she is waking. I think I would be more of a distraction. If you have ideas I am willing to try them).

Ok, so I am having anything leap out at me as an obvious explanation for that 35min waking. I found that whatever I used to help LO fall asleep was helpful in getting him back to sleep so shush/pat or similar. Hold through the jolts was also useful at times. Is she waking and screaming straight away?

2:20 W ( breathing quickly the whole time awake)

This is interesting - does this happen often? I just wonder if she was scared? Certainly the developmental leap around this time involves LOs learning about distance and I found personally that my DS would stir and then wake and be very upset if anything was different than it was before he went to sleep (mum gone, white noise off, etc. - so if I had been there with him when he fell asleep, I could resettle if I was fast enough but often he was too worked up by the time I got to him.

Am I right in thinking you're not feeding when she wakes at ~3:30 and hasn't had a NF since ~10pm? Its reasonable for her to be feeding X2 overnight, so might be worth feeding. Having upped her solids may be what's causing that hunger - solids has less calories than milk, so actually the more she takes and the less space she has for milk in the day, the more she may want to feed at night. Is she having solids in the evening? Sometimes babies wake in the night because they can feel the food moving through their gut and its 'new'. I've seen a few babies go back to sleeping as they had previously just by taking out night-time solids and adding them in again a few weeks later.

And when I do feed her I only give her a min or 2 of bf and she doesn't seem to want anymore or seem vigorous at her sucking so I don't think it's hunger although I have upped her solids quantity.

She may not need to be sucking as vigorously at night given your supply and thus flow is highest at this time.

3:30 W did PUPD ,she settled , stayed awake until 4:20 then cries more , gave her Advil in case teething and she seemed hungry )7:30 am heard her7:55 E9:55 S for 30 mins (she seemed to get more cranky as time went on; tried PUPD for 30 mins but didn't work)

Is she trying to sort out a new milestone? Crankiness can be from sources other than tiredness - eg. frustration.

6:55 heard her 7:15 E9:35 S for 1h10 ( decided to follow her cues a bit more after the day before she 30 min morning nap)

This here is really obviously UT - I'm not sure what the deal is with the 30min nap the day before off a similar A time. I think keeping those A times up at 3hr is going to be your best bet - certainly that's where you're getting your best naps. Keeping it consistent even after poorer night is important for discouraging those long wakings.

[Fireflysummer]

Sorry I haven't responded. Had company and LO's routine got all out of wack.

As for your questions,  she doesn't usually wake screaming hence why I stare at monitor a lot to find out when A time starts. I tried shushing her as she woke but it didn't work.

Breathing quickly happens often but only for a few minutes at a time when she is excited !

As for NF, no I was trying not to fed her since DF was at 10pm. I don't find my flow very high at night. I kinda feel empty at night. I was thinking of dropping the DF since TH recommends it but I guess I won't if she still is hungry?. The last two days I have been trying to feed her often during the day so she gets most her calories during daytime hours and doesn't get in the habit of shifting some of her caloric intake to night time. Also that makes sense what you said about solids having less calories than BM. I reduced her solids so I am only feeding solids earlier in the day.

As for the crankiness she just lies on her mat or sits up and I move her when she fusses but she still was fussing. I think it's teething because she has been rubbing mouth and nose a lot these past weeks but not everyday.


As I said earlier when company was here she was super overstimulated and i had no idea what to do with her. I put her Rd to bed earlier and she would sometimes wake after 30 mins and sometimes after an hour. So frustrating!

Today there was no company here.  She was up for 1h30 in the previous night from teething, i believe, so we did PUPd and gave medication.  I put her down after 3h10 for first A time because the day before she did 3 h A time and only had 1hr nap and then the next nap was 2 hr after 3hr A time. She woke up after 30mins today so I guess an hour sleep after 3hA time is better than 30 mins after 3h15 min A time. I kept her up for 2h30 next time and she slept for 1hr. I kept her up for 3 hr the next time and she slept for 30 mins. Again, I didn't know how long to keep her up until her bedtime since she was up through the night so I put her to bed around her usual time.

Here's the day:

2:30am W PuPd for 1h30

6:45 W
7:00 E
9:20 E
9:55 S

10:25 W
11:30 E
12:45 S

1:50 W
2:00 E
4:00 E
4:45 S

5:15 W
6;35 E
7:15 S (laid her down at 7pm)

So is 2 hrs total of sleep in the day enough to have her stay awake for another 2.5 hrs after her 30 mins catnaps I'm the evening?