Hand holding and advice pls

[eva026]

Hey There!

Very tired mom here, hoping for some help with everything sleep related really.
I’ve been on the EASY boards and her easy is as good as can be. Sleep unfortunately still not.
She’s a textbook/ grumpy baby. Cries before every nap since day one, no matter how perfect her A time. She’s done 40min naps pretty much since birth but they can mostly be extended by rocking. I was hoping to avoid sleep training till she finished 6mo ( her sister as the same issues with transitions and they pretty much sorted themselves at 6mo, so I just had to work on weaning the rocking at the start of naps).
At about 3.5 months she went from 1-2 NF to 3 ( we don’t do a DF as I just don’t have the time to pump 2 a day) then just over 2 weeks ago she got sick. We had a few nights of crying and sleeping on me and she’s just never gone back to normal nights. Since then we have had 4-6 nw and frankly I’m exhausted. Before the illness I had been working on the gentle removal of the rocking and was down to only holding her and stroking. Well we are back to square 1 now.
I’ve kind of backed myself into a corner: too scared to sleep train because that makes then OT and makes nights worse but I’m not sure if the holding for naps isn’t the thing that’s making the nights bad anyT? It never had any effect before the illness though and her sister was totally ok with it.

I’ve been keeping easy logs the last few days;

Her A time is 1.50min on a long nap and 1.30min on a short one. WU 7.30-8am, BT 7.30-8am. I try for 2 long naps and a cn and adjust BT accordingly. We tried extending A time on the easy boards but any more doesn’t work.
Day1
7.25 WU
9.20 s 30min
90.50 WU - had to go to mom and baby group
S 11.30 30min - at mom and baby group
WU 12.00
S 13.40
WU 14.15
S 15.10
16.40 wu
18.15 s 30min
18.45 wu
Bt 8.30
Nw 9.30, 11 (my fault I woke her coming into the room)2-3 more
Ew 6.50 - back to sleep till 7.40

Day 2
WU 7.40 a 1.50
S 9.30 s 2.10
Wu 11.40
Sc13.35
WU 15.10
S 17.10
WU 17.53
Bt 7.35
Nf 12,2,4,6

Today
Wu 7.30 A 1.50h
S9.22 S 1.10 h not in arms httj
WU 10.35 A 1.50h
S 12.23 - 35min in stir, httj and stroke, 45min in eyes open. Picked up and shhhh stroke - fell asleep. No rocking.
WU 14.10 A2.10h
Gone out
S 16.20 20min
16.40 WU
18.00s at home, in arms no rocking
WU 18.35
BT 20.20

[eva026]

One more day I found:

WU 8am
A 1.5
S 1.30
A 1.5
S 1.45
Then I had to go in to the dr so she ended up with an A of 2h and totally OS
S 30min (5.20pm)
Tried to get her down for a cn but it did t work
EBT at 7.20 pm (ended up with an A of 2h)
NF 9pm ( couldn’t get any milk into her at BT )
NF 12.30
Nw 1-3pm - slept on me till 4am
NF 4am - couldn’t get her to sleep till 4.30am
WU 7am

[eva026]

Oh and btw - all long naps are in arms
She isn’t swaddled because she starters rolling very early.can do both sides, front to back, starting back to tummy now.
She’s in her own bed BT- first feed then I keep her with me in bed. Can’t face going up and down 20 times a night. We just ordered a bed that attaches to ours and I’m ok with her in that till she is in a normal bed

[eva026]

Been keeping notes the last few days:
Wu 7.30 A 1.50
S9.22 S 1. 10 not in arms httj
WU 10.35 A 1.50
S 12.23 - 35min in stir, httj and stroke, 45min in eyes open. Picked up and shhhh stroke - fell asleep. No rocking.
WU 14.10
Gone out
S 16.20 20min
16.40 WU
18.00s at home, in arms no rocking
WU 18.35
BT 20.20
NF 12,2,4,6

WU 7.40
S 9.30 A1.50h
WU 10.00 S30min
S 11.20 A1.20h
WU 13.08 S1.50h
S 14.45 A 1.35
WU 16.20
S 18.15
WU 18.45
BT 20.20
Nf1,4,6

Wu 7.30 A 1.55
S 9.25 S 40
Wu 10.05 A 1.05
11.10 s s 1.30
12.40wu A 1.35
14.15 s  s 1.30
15.45 wu A1.45
S 17.30 s45
18.15 wu
BT 8.00 pm
WU 11,1,3,4,6

[becj86]

Hi, sorry your post looks like its been missed.

I am inclined to think she probably need a touch more A time. I can see she's occasionally sleeping ok with your intervention with HTTJ and shush/pat around the transition points. Are you able to do that consistently for a few days?

The worst day I could see in those days you've posted was when you woke her after 30min to take her to baby group and the whole day went downhill from there really. The other days don't look too bad.

I think if you're prepared to bits of shush/pat and HTTJ consistently, you may well have an independent sleeper before you get to 6mo provided her routine is appropriate for her. She is doing some UT naps in there on the 1:50 A time and I think if you gave that a nudge to 2hr or 2:15, you may find that gets a bit better.

[eva026]

I was thinking to increase her morning A to 2h - yesterday the morning A of 1.50 gave a 50min nap and we had an ew at 6.30 today - managed to apop her back to sleep till 7.45 though.
Are the later A times ok with 1.50 for now? She was fussy as crying yesterday with her last A1.50 before the CN
The problem with httj etc is that all long naps are still in my arms. Occasionally when I don’t have to take her anywhere or pick DD1 up I try one out of my arms with just httj - sometimes it works to extend but more often not.

I just feel like I’m dealing with so many things at once I don’t know where to start.

Rocking has been successfully dealt with but the holding no. Do I leave that for now because I’m extending A and she might get OT or tackle that at the same time ? She has done 45minnaps since birth unless held.
I’ve cut mom-baby group down to every second week because I’m too anxious to deal with that on top of the lack of sleep. And I’m exactly at the point I was with DD1, too stressed about her sleeping to do much. I have 1 year of maternity leave so I promised myself I wouldn’t get so wound up because I can hold her during naps till she doesn’t need it as much any more. Anyway...

[becj86]

Are naps in arms because you're not home or because you're not putting her down? Just wondering. I think either way, a longer A time will help with resettling and nap length.

I think you're not going to know if she can do more than 45min naps whilst not being held unless you try - for that though, she needs to not be UT, hence the increase in A time; and she needs to be put down - not saying you don't sit next to her and reassure if necessary but its different sleeping on mum than sleeping in bed. Not saying you have to do that but I think she's reliant on you for sleep and its hard to get a good picture of what A time will suit her in the presence of that prop.

I see you're wanting to avoid stressing out about sleep. I think in that case, you are the maker of your own destiny - we can make all the changes at once and in a week we'll be talking about tweaking or you can make each change individually and it'll take longer but it'll be more gradual. Either way, I'm happy to hold your hand through it. The key with any change is to be consistent with it. Perhaps you could start each change at a time you have more support with DD1. The first and most important change is really to bump that A time. I'd say most particularly the first one but all of them could do with an increase, really.

With the crying at 1:50 for the CN - was that before or after she knew if was nap time? Wondering if she was OS and upset or UT and protesting sleep rather than OT though she could well be OT at the end of a day with poor naps.

[eva026]

Are naps in arms because you're not home or because you're not putting her down? Just wondering. I think either way, a longer A time will help with resettling and nap length.

Both really. In the afternoon the cn has to be in the sling because I pick her sister up then.
Otherwise I’ve been holding her because I’m scared she will do short naps and then get OT and have even worse nights. Vicious circle. I’m a freaking addict I swear!
I sometimes try putting her down if I know I have time and nothing pressing that day so if the naps suck I can hold her in the afternoon if the rest of the days naps suck.
But you are totally right, I won’t kniw if she can do it till I try more consistently.

The only thing I have on my side is time, I only go back to work at the end of next summer!
So baby steps? I’ll start bedtime shh pat not in arms.

Increase morning A time and hold a few days then next one and next? Once that is done put her down for naps and try httj and shhh pat for transitions. Is that ok?

Btw I just increased her first A to 2h and ended up rocking from 30min-1hS because she kept waking and whimpering 😖.  She does look to be on her way to a 2h nap now that the bad part is over. 1.45h and counting. The OT 30min nap should be ok after I hold this time a few days?

[eva026]

With the crying at 1:50 for the CN - was that before or after she knew if was nap time? Wondering if she was OS and upset or UT and protesting sleep rather than OT though she could well be OT at the end of a day with poor naps.

That was before she knew it was nap time. I didn’t realize it had gotten so late.
Yesterday was ok with naps though.
WU 7.26 A1.51
S 9.25 S 50min
WU 10.15 A1.30 went to get groceries
S 12.00 S40min in sling in shop
12.42 WU A1.25
S 14.05 s 1.45
WU 15.50 A 1.55
S17.45 crying tired nap in sling because of DD1 being home
WU 18.20
BT 7.40 only got to sleep 8.25 because she kept waking every 5min
NF 1am, NF 4am shhh/pat to sleep 30min (on bed not in arms)
Ew 6.30 but rocked her in the bathroom (only room with no window) and she slept till 7.45

[eva026]

Very good day I think.

WU 7.44 A2h
S 9.45 S 2h
WU 11.48 A2h
S 13.49 S1.50 (not in arms, woke at 30min rest of nap on me)
WU 16.40 A 1.45
S 17.25 very OT
WU 18.00 S 35min
Will do BT 19.30 in an A of 1.30h
She fed at 8.30, after nap1, before nap2 top up, after nap 2, after cn and will try a top up for BT

Let’s see what the night brings.

[becj86]

The OT 30min nap should be ok after I hold this time a few days?

Yes, it should.

Otherwise I’ve been holding her because I’m scared she will do short naps and then get OT and have even worse nights. Vicious circle. I’m a freaking addict I swear!

So many people do this - worry about short-term OT that gives a 30min waking that's usually easily resettled but then LO is UT for naps, has short, non-restorative naps and ends up OT. I'm not saying to keep her up til she collapses, but pushing a little here and there is actually not a bad thing.

Sounds like you've a good plan that you're happy with. Keep us posted

[eva026]

Bad night again, up every 2h and Ew 6.00 but i resetled by taking her into the dark bathroom and she slept till 8am
The nights won’t improve right away either? I guess I was hoping it would be a magic fix.
Got vaccinations today so only the first A and s will be ok, the we’ll have to wing it.

[becj86]

It'll take a little while for nights to get better unfortunately.

[eva026]

Ok at least I’m prepared for that.
I don’t know what this illness did to her, 3 weeks later and she’s still not in track after it! Maybe it was illness with the 4mo regression thrown in.
Btw bed time last night was not in my arms, just laying next to her with her head on my hand.

[becj86]

I don’t know what this illness did to her, 3 weeks later and she’s still not in track after it!

It can be really tricky because they can need a bit more sleep when they're crook so it seems like you can't push A times but then time is still marching on and they need a bigger push than usual when they're better to get back on track. Also, you know there are a few days when you're over the worst of an illness but still not feeling great - that happens to babies too.