Author Topic: 4-Month Sleep Regression? Leap 4? Schedule wrong? Something else? Help!!  (Read 2762 times)

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Offline mcbd71317

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Hi everyone! I'm new to this forum, so hopefully my lingo goes okay! My DS is 19 weeks old and has never been a good sleeper (he is EBF, gets a bottle of BM at the end of bedtime routine).  He's been rocked, held and shushed/pat to sleep since Day 1 and we are completely stuck on that!  For the first three months he would do a 3-6 hour stretch in the beginning of the night followed by a 2-3 wake ups, with a few more 2-3 hour stretches, and naps were always 45-60 minutes (unless I was wearing him in the carrier or on me, then they would be 2-3 hours!)

We were on a 2.5 hour EASY schedule (7 AM wakeup, 4 naps) and seemed to be stuck on that until a week before he turned 4 months when everything went off the rails!  His naps nosedived to 30-45 minutes and in the last two weeks he is now awake every hour at night after the first 1-3 hour stretch.  He is nursing back to sleep in bed with us and then waking 60-90 minutes later to nurse again, all night. I thought he was ready for a nap transition and tried to implement a 3 hour EASY two weeks ago (3 naps) and he seemed to respond okay, he certainly didn't seem overly hungry at the feeding time but his naps didn't change to be longer and that's when the nighttime sleep went haywire.  He also started nursing in about half the time and is seriously distracted!

I should also say that we tried one night of "Gentle 3 Cry" (what our sleep coach called it, really Ferber in disguise, needless to say we're done with the sleep coaching) and it was HORRENDOUS and he cried for hours and I feel like an awful mommy and will never do it again--we were just at our wits end since only I can hold him to sleep now (no DH or grandma).  I'm considering PU/PD but don't know if he's too old, and how to work that in with the completely thrown off 3 hour EASY that now is looking crazy (EASAESAESEA?!?!) because of the short naps!

I know I have a lot of issues so any help anyone has I would be BEYOND grateful! I can post sample days if that would help just didn't want to make my first post so long  :D    THANK YOU!!!

Offline becj86

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Re: 4-Month Sleep Regression? Leap 4? Schedule wrong? Something else? Help!!
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2017, 07:36:49 am »
Hi, welcome to BW :)

I'm really glad you've decided not to try CIO again (and sorry that it was such a terrible experience for your whole family) - as you may know, we're happy to support you to gently help your baby sleep but we don't support or advise CIO as it can degrade the bond of trust between you and baby.

At 19 weeks, we'd be expecting to see a baby awake for 2hr-2:15 before needing a nap, so I suspect your baby is undertired, hence the issues with short naps and possibly difficulty getting him to sleep for naps. Nights often are awful when the day is not right and I think your nights will get better once your days are better.

The best way to help him to sleep is shush/pat. You can reduce your assistance gradually to help him learn how to get himself off to sleep in stages, so initially you would shush/pat until he's asleep then just until he's drowsy and so on until you can put him down and he can go off to sleep on his own. This is a learned skill, not an innate ability. Given he's probably a bit scared of his bed now, its worth spending some happy awake time there creating positive associations. Its fine to start off getting a routine more suitable for him and letting him sleep on you and slowly moving away from that - perhaps with a shirt of yours with him so he has your smell and perhaps some white noise that goes through the whole nap.

It is really important that he's tired when you're trying to help him fall asleep - so you need to keep him awake a bit longer - 2hr at least before he goes down for a nap, probably more like 2:15 - this time will increase as he gets older, doing this gradually makes things easier on you both.

BF advice has changed a bit since Tracy wrote her books, so please feed if he's hungry - you should not be making LO wait until the appointed hour for feeding (which Tracy never actually said should happen anyway), BW is about meeting your baby's needs in a predictable way, not making your baby fit into a rigid schedule. EAEASAEAS is fine. The idea of A then S is about avoiding feed to sleep associations.

Hugs xx You've obviously had a rough time of it. Hopefully we can help you get some sleep into your LO and you.

Offline eva026

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Re: 4-Month Sleep Regression? Leap 4? Schedule wrong? Something else? Help!!
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2017, 08:02:02 am »
Just offering hugs, in the same boat now.
Regarding the feeds, you can try feed just as he’s coming out of a nap, still half asleep. Otherwise a bright necklace on for feeds to keep him on the breast and looking the right way or just try a darkened room.

The gentle removal plan worked for me to get rid of the rocking. You slowly decrease the undesired activity and replace it with the one you want. So rock / shhh pat and slowly rock less and less strongly till you are barely rocking at all, just shhhh/patting, finally no rocking at all.





Offline mcbd71317

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Re: 4-Month Sleep Regression? Leap 4? Schedule wrong? Something else? Help!!
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2017, 01:05:04 am »
Thank you both so much for your replies! I really appreciate the kind words and support!

I wanted to start the new schedule today but of course he woke up an hour later than normal!  We've been co-sleeping and I've been nursing back to sleep overnight for the past two weeks just so we can both get some sleep.  DH and I are going to start working on the rocking to shush/pat this weekend, hopefully after the schedule has normalized.

I had no idea that he'd be undertired, I always thought 2 hours was not enough but I guess that's what Tracy says in the book, I just didn't connect it (sleep deprivation much?).  As I'm sitting here typing, he went down at 7:00 PM and woke up at 7:43 PM, even after a full bottle of BM (didn't fall asleep on it, just as part of the routine).  Prior to that he had been awake for 3 hours, because his last wake up was 4:00 PM and I didn't know how to squeeze in a catnap before bed without him being undertired for bedtime.  Does the 45 minutes mean he's overtired then?

Such great ideas eva026, thank you so much! I'm going to look into those bright teething necklaces to use to distract him from being distracted  :D
Otherwise a bright necklace on for feeds to keep him on the breast and looking the right way or just try a darkened room.

The gentle removal plan worked for me to get rid of the rocking. You slowly decrease the undesired activity and replace it with the one you want. So rock / shhh pat and slowly rock less and less strongly till you are barely rocking at all, just shhhh/patting, finally no rocking at all.

This community is already so supportive! I hope I can contribute with some success stories and advice one day!

Offline becj86

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Re: 4-Month Sleep Regression? Leap 4? Schedule wrong? Something else? Help!!
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2017, 01:26:52 am »
As a general rule of thumb, one sleep cycle is 45min. 30min naps tend to be overtired and are usually easily resettled. 45min naps tend to be due to undertired. A restorative nap is typically taken to be 2 full sleep cycles.

This unfortunately all changes with night sleep - wakings in the first 3hrs or so of the night are from OT at bedtime.

Offline mcbd71317

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Re: 4-Month Sleep Regression? Leap 4? Schedule wrong? Something else? Help!!
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2017, 02:05:12 am »
Thank you for your response! So for this past week we’ve been following our sleep coach’s schedule to have DS awake from 4:00 onward until a 7:00 bedtime but he consistently woke up after 45-60 minutes. The last two nights we followed the same schedule but added in a late nap and moved bedtime to later at 8:00 (when he was 2~ months he went to sleep then and slept longer stretches, wishful thinking I know since his sleep changes at 4 months but wanted to experiment :) ) and he still woke up 45-60 minutes after bedtime. He went right back to sleep with a minute of shush-patting while being held. I feel like he’s not connecting sleep cycles and I don’t know whether to do more intensive weaning of the shush-pat, start PU/PD or possibly move his bedtime super early (5:30? 6:00?) because of his short naps?

Offline becj86

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Re: 4-Month Sleep Regression? Leap 4? Schedule wrong? Something else? Help!!
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2017, 02:17:34 am »
So for this past week we’ve been following our sleep coach’s schedule to have DS awake from 4:00 onward until a 7:00 bedtime but he consistently woke up after 45-60 minutes.
Ok, so those wakings shortly after BT are symptomatic of him being overtired when he goes to bed. At this age, 2:15-2:30 awake time is enough for him to be ready for another sleep.

Can you post an EAS? I would imagine something like this would be somewhere to start:
7 - WU, feed
9:15 - nap
10:45 - wake, feed
1pm - nap
2:30 - wake, feed
4:45 - catnap for 30-45mins
5:15/5:30 - wake, feed
7pm-7:30 - asleep in bed for the night

Offline mcbd71317

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Re: 4-Month Sleep Regression? Leap 4? Schedule wrong? Something else? Help!!
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2017, 19:27:21 pm »
Our sample schedule right now looks like this, but differs wildly from what actually happens which I’ll list.

Sample (from sleep coach/not invested in this so feel free to pick apart)
7:00 - wake/feed
8:30-9:30 - nap
10:00 - feed
11:30 - nap
1:00 - wake/feed
3:00 - nap
4:00 - feed
5:30 - bedtime routine
6:45 - feed
7:00 - bed

An actual day from this week, trying to stick to the schedule but following tired cues and not wanting to feed less than 2.5-3 hours apart during the day:
3:40 AM-4:58 AM - sleep
5:01 AM - feed (9 mins) won’t go back to sleep otherwise
5:13 AM-6:19 AM - sleep
6:19 - feed (9 mins)
7:56 - feed (6 mins)
8:03-8:48 - nap
8:50 - feed (18 mins)
10:37-11:29 - nap
12:08 - feed (12 mins)
1:24-1:57 - nap
3:36 - feed (13 mins)
4:01-4:32 - nap
4:36-5:33 - extended nap after rocking
5:37 - feed (11 mins)
7:10 - feed (bottle of BM)
8:19-10:00 - sleep
10:34 - feed (9 mins)
10:52-12:42 AM - sleep

This wasnt a particularly bad day but it highlights the short naps. DS is chronically overtired and can’t transition sleep cycles.

Offline mcbd71317

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Re: 4-Month Sleep Regression? Leap 4? Schedule wrong? Something else? Help!!
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2017, 19:30:43 pm »
I should add that we try to stick to the schedule but with the early wake ups and short naps I just try to adjust every day (feeds three hours apart, naps 2-2.5 hours apart) so I think his biological clock at this point is so off!

Offline becj86

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Re: 4-Month Sleep Regression? Leap 4? Schedule wrong? Something else? Help!!
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2017, 21:11:01 pm »
Righto, I'll not say anything much about the sample routine from the sleep coach except that I'll be advising something different based on my analysis of the actual day you've posted.

3:40 AM-4:58 AM - sleep 5:01 AM - feed (9 mins) won’t go back to sleep otherwise 5:13 AM-6:19 AM - sleep6:19 - feed (9 mins)
Really seems to be struggling to sleep through those early hours of the morning. This could be a few things - when you feed at this hour, your supply is highest and sometimes babies struggle with additional flow they're not otherwise used to so they can get wind and wake with pain and want to feed to help their gut move the gas along and out with less pain; could also be that she's going down for her first nap too early and so she's not got enough of an incentive to sleep well at that time of night. Certainly given the 45min nap first up, I'm inclined to think the second is a solid reason but have a think about whether the feeding/gas issue might be part of it.

6:19 - feed (9 mins)7:56 - feed (6 mins)8:03-8:48 - nap
So, you've started the day around 6:20 - and first nap is at 8am so that's 1:40 A time. First nap is bang on 45min which is likely to be exactly one sleep cycle. This suggests he's not tired enough for this nap. Average A time at 4 months is 2hr - I'd jump to that now for his first A time and hold it steady for 3-4 days and we can re-evaluate after that.

8:03-8:48 - nap8:50 - feed (18 mins)10:37-11:29 - nap
~1:50 A time off a 45min nap and still the resulting nap is only 50min which is still indicating UT. Pushing A times to at least 2hr is going to be important in increasing nap length.

10:37-11:29 - nap12:08 - feed (12 mins)1:24-1:57 - nap
Here, we've got a 1:55 A time off a second short nap and you've got a 30min nap which indicates LO was overtired for this nap. I don't think this is because the A time is too long - its because neither of the previous naps were restorative and OT is building.

1:24-1:57 - nap3:36 - feed (13 mins)4:01-4:32 - nap4:36-5:33 - extended nap after rocking
Here, a 2:05 A time with another OT 30min waking from the nap. Great decision to extend this nap and ended up with 1.5hr of sleep which is what we're aiming for to be restorative.

7:10 - feed (bottle of BM)8:19-10:00 - sleep10:34 - feed (9 mins)10:52-12:42 AM - sleep
This waking within 3hr of BT is classic of OT at bedtime - Were you trying to get LO off to sleep after the 7:10 feed? or keep him up til 3hr A time?

What I'd suggest is that you do this routine (shifted in relation to WU time) for the next 3-4 days and see how you go:
7 - wake, feed
9 - nap
10:30 - wake, feed
12:30 - nap
2 - wake, feed
4 - nap
5:30 - wake, feed
7:30 - asleep in bed for the night

Some general comments:
- Its possible that when you increase some of these A time, especially in the morning, LO will have an OT 30min waking because he's not used to being awake that long at that time. Be ready to resettle these (sneak in at 25min and watch so you've there to help if he needs it before he gets worked up and more tricky to resettle).
- Not sure where you are but if you can get some natural light onto him with a walk outside or something in the first A time, that will also help with the body clock issue.
- Keep night really obviously night by keeping light off or very low during feeds, minimal interaction at night - its not a time for play or chats.

I think if you can stick with this routine for 3-4 days, we'll be able to work out if he needs a bit more A time again which is possible (average A times increase from 2hr at 4 months to 2:45-3hr at 6 months and your LO may not be average). Once the day is sorted, the night usually falls into place without much more intervention, if any.