3 day challenge, is it possible?!

[helbk]

I'm reposting as no response to my original one and hopefully this is clearer!

I'd really like to make some serious headway on sleep training with my 14wo whilst my 2.5yo is at nursery tues-thurs next week. The 2 biggies I want to crack is for naps to stop only being in a sling,  and stop feeding to sleep at bedtime.

I was thinking of doing shhpat for all naps /bedtime, minus props, in the hope to save my back and sanity. But am I being overly ambitious?!

Current situation
Baby has naps only in sling since 6wo after being diagnosed with silent reflux. Previously would consistently cry when rocked etc. Shes on omeprazole now which is helping. In sling I'd have to bounce, pat, white noise, put dummy in and shield her eyes to get her to sleep (not much then!). She often sleeps for 30-45 mins, with one longer nap which can be anything from 9.30am or early afternoon.
Bedtime - Used to rock until she passed out but now feeds to sleep as only way she calms. I sit in a dark room with white noise. She sleeps in a Sleepyhead in a bedside cot on her side. Her bedtime varies (7-8) depending on when her last nap ended. She feeds 2-3 times a night. I do a dream feed around 1.5-2hrs later, she sleeps for approx 3- 4hrs, feed, 2.5hrs sleep, feed, then its all over the place and she can be fidgety and awake anytime from 4.30am which is exhausting. It means we dont have a consistent wake up time.
Activity time approx 1hr15 before starts yawning.
I have my toddler with me on Mondays and Fridays so mornings we're often out and about, with baby in sling as she does not nap in buggy or carseat.
I think shes a combo of spirited and touchy.


Steps Ive been taking over last few days.
Trying to stick to EASY routine where possible, excluding feeding to sleep at bedtime.
Trying to reduce the amount of accidental parenting when getting her to sleep in sling (E g doing shhpat without bouncing, avoiding dumny where possible)
Watching for tired signs more

So...my plan to do 3 day bootcamp next week...

• Too much too soon? Am I setting myself up to fail and should take a more gradual approach, focusing on naps first then night issues.
  Focus on naps first in cot with dummy then phase out? Will it confuse her having some naps out and about in sling on days i have my toddler? Or will the pram get easier?
  14 weeks too young for such a drastic change?
  Best to start on monday evening or Tuesday morning?
  Should I get husband involved, especially for bedtime routine so its completey seperated from breastfeeding?
  What should I do if she gets hysterical and cant be comforted?

Thank you!

[creations]

Hi there
Sorry to see you didn't have any replies to your previous thread. As I didn't have a sling addicted LO I didn't read/respond to your thread title and perhaps it was the same for others.

Certainly you can tackle all these sleep issues in one go - Tracy has examples in the BW books of totally changing routines and sleep training all in one go. The plus side is that whilst LO might totally refuse a nap (or several) because you are putting her in the cot and taking away the various props the build up of OT actually help LO to eventually go to sleep...and it's in the cot.
The less positive aspect though is that it can be very hard work and can feel like you have a screaming baby on your hands for months rather than a few hours or days.  Because it can be so exhausting and emotionally draining to have LO crying and not sleeping it can lead to parents giving up which means lots of crying for no end result (eg if after an hour crying you end up feeding to sleep plus using sling, rocking and bouncing and every prop imaginable to get her to sleep - it's a lot of upset all round for no change.  I'd suggest only taking on what you can really manage - whatever level of sleep training that is, if it is one cot nap per day you will still feel the benefits of having one Y time (or one to one time with your toddler) you can reasonably rely on.

other things I would think about:
- SIDS guidance is that if LO is reliant on a paci for sleep not to remove it cold turkey prior to 6 months old as this can be a greater SIDS risk. You might want to look into this before making a decision on removing the paci.
- LOs build habits per sleep and if you go all out with cot naps then in my opinion yes she will be confused when you change things up on the days you want to go out and put her back in the sling. It can either confuse her or she could well refuse to sling nap when you want her to because she becomes "addicted" to the cot naps and refuse to sleep elsewhere.  You might want to think about your weekly routine and build in a morning buggy nap and afternoon cot nap for instance and do those same things 7 days per week.  Once those habits are set if you change it up once, for a special occasion say, you know to expect a tricky time, possibly a CN instead of a good nap and will need to get back on track the following days.
- I'm not familiar with the "sleepy head" you mention, cot blocks and cot safe wedges can help for refluxers to allow them to sleep with their head higher.
- laying baby on their left side (during the wind down even if they sleep on their back) is helpful as it can reduce the acid coming up (the right side apparently makes it worse, I always had my DS laying the wrong way in my arms!!)
- patting can cause more discomfort for some refluxers, if you suspect this you might find rubbing more comfortable. Mine did not do well with patting but did well with a firm hand on him which I kind of rocked in a tiny but quite jiggly motion, almost a vibration if that makes sense.  This sort of hands on rocking when baby is in the cot can be weaned by reduction in the same way that patting is reduced so it needn't become a new prop.
- personally I wouldn't be concerned about feeding to sleep at BT.  Many refluxers find the BT feed and the DF/NF more comfortable so will feed better at those times.  If it is the only time of the day LO feeds to sleep I really don't think it's a "problem" if it is not effecting the nap habits.

OK - no clear answers for you just a few thoughts.  Good luck whatever you decide to go ahead with and let us know how you get on

[helbk]

Thanks so much for your reply, some useful things for me to think about. Looking at my week, activities are generally on the morning/early lunch time. As my LO does not nap in the pram (though I'd love her too) perhaps I'd want to aim for the afternoon naps to be in the cot, morning in sling for now but work towards pram at a later date. Would just training on afternoon naps over 3 days still be confusing for her though? I'd love it if the cot naps translated to pram naps!

Would you try a variation of shhpat until she finally falls asleep no matter if it takes hours? Or bail, give her some awake time for a little while then try again if she's in hysterics? Ive had a read of the secrets book and not 100% clear.

I'm conscious the early morning disturbance (5am onwards) might be because she's wanting to feed for comfort. Would it be worth being persistent with a shhpat here if the last feed was less than 2hrs before?

Sorry, lots of questions!

[creations]

Would just training on afternoon naps over 3 days still be confusing for her though?

Habits can be changed in 3 days in the sense that you should see improvement on day 2 and more improvement day 3 but they need to be kept up longer to really establish the habit.  When all naps are in the cot over that 3 day period there are more opportunities to practise the self settling and I'd say if you choose to go for one nap in the cot then I would expect to take a bit longer as it is only one practise per day but even so I do think you will see progress.
In my opinion the continuity needs to be per nap so if nap 1 is always in the sling this will be expected, if nap 2 is always in the cot this will be expected.  If you keep switching there will be less success and greater confusion and greater resistance to the changes.

I'd love it if the cot naps translated to pram naps!

I wouldn't bank on this.  From my own experience - my DS would not nap in the pram and he insisted on being in his cot and only his cot for naps. I even had a thread here way back asking if anyone thought re-sleep training into the pram would be worth while because he screamed blue murder if I put him in the pram at nap time and did not EVER go to sleep. He would not sleep in my arms either and to get a sling nap was almost impossible and took huge effort (actually just not worth the effort).  He did though get used to car naps due to the consistency in routine.  He had nap 1 in the cot (2hrs pretty much dependable) then nap 2 in the car on our way out and nap 3 in the car on our way home. This gave me more flexibility to get out to baby/toddler groups BUT on the weekend when I didn't want to go anywhere he 100% refused to have nap 2 in the cot and would scream and scream expecting to be put in the car. At times I just took him out for some peace but I found this a drag, yk when you just want a pj day?  That was the compromise though, he gave me flexibility to go out to groups but I had to give him the 7 day consistency or face the wrath.
Some LOs are much more moveable but the essence of what Tracy said about our expectations of our LOs rings true to me - and it's about looking at the whole family needs and working out the best fit.


I've also know people do ALL naps in the pram whether at home or out and about and their LOs are happy with that arrangement.
Must go for my DS's BT now.

[creations]

I'm back.

Would you try a variation of shhpat until she finally falls asleep no matter if it takes hours? Or bail, give her some awake time for a little while then try again if she's in hysterics? Ive had a read of the secrets book and not 100% clear.

There are examples in the books of Tracy keeping going almost the full nap length even if LO didn't go to sleep. In these examples she stops a bit short of a full nap length as LO will be hungry earlier due to having used more calories through being awake and/or crying rather than fewer calories being used when asleep so the feed comes earlier but then almost a full A time is given before the next attempt. This means the actual A time is extremely long because it runs from once A time right through the "nap" time and then another A time in addition.
On the boards we tend to go a bit easier than that, more gentle on LO and on ourselves too. So usually we say if it's 40 mins into nap time and LO is still not calming then ditch the nap and go for some A time.  We also tend to go for a shorter A time due to the missed nap.
Whichever way you go about it though just getting LO asleep in the cot is a huge achievement whether it ends up being the right time or not.

In the first stages if you can get LO to fall asleep on the mattress even if you need to pat (or adapted) all the way through the nap this is still a big step in the right direction.  You can also pat in arms until totally asleep and transfer to the cot and continue patting through to deep sleep or the full nap.  This is the way shush/pat is started with new borns and young babies so if you need to start here then that's fine, your LO is still very young.  Any sleep in the cot is a step in the right direction and any patting can be weaned in stages.

I'm conscious the early morning disturbance (5am onwards) might be because she's wanting to feed for comfort. Would it be worth being persistent with a shhpat here if the last feed was less than 2hrs before?

I think I'd just feed there if it means you can all go back to sleep for another hour or 2.

Hope that helps some.

[helbk]

Thank you, I really appreciate your tips and experience.

I'm following EASY where I can but as early mornings are so inconsistent we dont have a proper regular get up time so not sure she has an understanding of nap 1 etc? She also often only naps for 30-45mins, even in sling, so that moves the routine around alot and it keeps changing week by week. Ib know she must be getting OT.
Judging by the last few days she doesnt resettle well after the 4-5am feed. I kept my hand on her in her bed to help her stay in one sleep cycle as can feel her limbs twitching. This stretches out another hour (for her!) but then shes awake. So i dont think shes getting good sleep at all early morning.

 I'm so exhausted in responding as and when, not knowing what environment I'll be in because of this. I have to get out with the toddler but its hard if the 2 days i'm solo with them has to dictate the routine the rest of the week. I dont think I have the energy or support to work on her naps gradually across weeks so first one in sling, next in cot etc in light of the above. I'm really struggling with the lack of sleep. That's why i'm wondering if i should deploy shhpat to cot at every sleep, including bedtime to really help her practice self settling, ride out the 30-45min cycle, and do it intensively over those 3 days, then get help for the friday-sunday so I can continue. For bedtime i could feed a bit earlier in the routine, in a chair rather than our bed, and shhpat in arms upright before putting her down so not falling asleep on boob. What do you think? Or husband take over from that point. I'm missing my toddlers bedtime alot at the moment and would really like the option of my husband settling baby sometimes.

So whilst next week might be tough as anything, the stress and lack of sleep is tougher I think. But of course i only want to do this if itll actually help rather than confuse! Ive more or less managed to get her to sleep in sling with shhpat in around 10mins if cover her eyes etc so hoping its a step in the right direction.

[creations]

I dont think I have the energy or support to work on her naps gradually across weeks so first one in sling, next in cot etc in light of the above. I'm really struggling with the lack of sleep. That's why i'm wondering if i should deploy shhpat to cot at every sleep, including bedtime to really help her practice self settling, ride out the 30-45min cycle, and do it intensively over those 3 days,

If this is the best and most comfortable option for you then go for it.  For some people this would be a horrifying idea but for others it's what "saves" them (although that sounds a bit dramatic).  We all do the "know your baby" quiz but I think when it comes to sleep training there needs to be a "know yourself quiz" so that you can plan something appropriate to your own character type.

[helbk]

True. And believe me I'm not looking forward to it! I just dont see how I can train properly with a non -napping toddler in tow. I might go more gradually with the night side of things if hubby around then. Might have to suck it and see! Please god make it work! 

[creations]

Sending you some vibes for a successful improvement - whatever that might be

[jessmum46]

Hi, just popping on to add my apologies that your original thread had not yet received any replies - both kids sick here I'm afraid   I just replied to your other thread but will lock that one now and link it to here to keep all your advice in one place

[helbk]

Thank you both so much for your support. Jessmum, you helped me at a desperate time 2 years ago with my first, and back there with my second. Being very honest i'm finding it hard to cope.

So I started doing shhpat at bedtime the last 2 nights which has worked well so far, getting her to sleep at 7pm. The only problem is she was awake for almost 3hrs beforehand, despite my best efforts to get her to nap. It was hard to get her down earlier because of my eldest. Her EASY is all over the place, with lots of short naps (30-45mins) or random long ones in sling, and one off in pram so very hard to plan. I'm sure the noise, light etc doesnt help. Shes also restless from about 3am every night over the last week, the only way to keep her semi asleep is to keep my hand on her and I had to do a continous pat for the last hour to 6.10am this morning in an attempt to delay her wake up. I'm sure her 5am+ wake ups have thrown out the routine too. She wakes around 1.30am for a feed (dreamfeed or not) then 1.5-2hrs later.

I guess my questions going forward are should I continue doing what i am from 3am to stretch wake up time and in the hope itll settle once get into more of a routine? Or is this becoming a prop? Could this unsettledness be related to being OT from the day?

As you know I'm planning to consistently do shhpat for naps over next 3 days whilst my eldest is at nursery. With maybe the 2nd nap of the day (whenever that may be) be in the pram (if i can?). If success with shhpat at any point, i'm fully expecting her to be OT so the naps short. Should I try to extend them and if so how long should I work on it before moving to A?

It all feels chicken and egg with knowing where to start. I cant cope with much more of these fragmented days hence planning to do a solid block. But I also really dont want to make it worse if she gets more and more OT.  Would my husband getting involved make it confusing? Whats hard is working around my eldest nursery hours /bedtime /non existent naps and activities the days hes home.

I want to feel as confident as I can before starting on the naps tomorrow, so am very grateful for your thoughts and support.

[creations]

Should I try to extend them and if so how long should I work on it before moving to A?

You could stay by her side the entire nap and if she starts to stir use W2S (start shush/pat and again) to help her transition from one cycle to another or even through the whole nap in those early days. It could also help to avoid some OT if you can get the naps longer.  If you do try to do this we usually say to stop at about 40 mins if LO hasn't gone back to sleep (so approx 40 min nap and 40 min trying to extend is almost end of nap time and LO may be hungry again).

Would my husband getting involved make it confusing?

LOs can build habits per person so long term it's helpful if DH can get her to sleep too but short term you might find it quicker to have just one person do the sleep training otherwise LO can try the old tactics to be picked up etc with the second care-giver.

I guess my questions going forward are should I continue doing what i am from 3am to stretch wake up time and in the hope itll settle once get into more of a routine? Or is this becoming a prop? Could this unsettledness be related to being OT from the day?

Yes it could be OT causing NWs/EW in the early hours.  I would continue with a hand on if it's helping, although LOs can get used to being patted or having a hand on it is easily weaned and there is the benefit of teaching the habit of staying asleep at night and not waking until morning.

Good luck!

[helbk]

Thanks creations

When you say:
If you do try to do this we usually say to stop at about 40 mins if LO hasn't gone back to sleep (so approx 40 min nap and 40 min trying to extend is almost end of nap time and LO may be hungry again).

Does this include if shes crying alot throughout the additional 40mins? Sorry, I know I've already sort of asked this but want to make sure! Thanks again

[creations]

Does this include if shes crying alot throughout the additional 40mins? Sorry, I know I've already sort of asked this but want to make sure

Honestly this is your call.
In the books Tracy gives examples of keeping LO in the room until almost the end of nap time even if LO is totally refusing to nap, it is part of the teaching method to get LO onto a suitable routine and this is likely the quickest way. Tracy followed these unsuccessful naps with almost a full A time, again to instil the routine (which becomes flexible once it is in place...so initially it can be very strict to get things going).
But, we all know what it's like to have a screaming baby on our hands, it is hard work!  So you can stop earlier than the end of the nap, you can stop at 40 mins or you can stop earlier than that too if you feel that she is screaming too much and you need to calm her down by taking her out of the room.
There were times with my DS (independent sleeper) I took him back out of his room because he was screaming so hard I needed to get him out of the screaming-zone.  other times I've taken  him out and he wasn't screaming but I understood his fussing and attempts to communicate that he was not yet ready for a nap.  There have been other times I've kept him in his room for long periods adamant that he is going to go back to sleep when a new routine needed to be set for his own good (eg when he dropped to one nap and was only napping 20 mins instead of 2hrs I kept going until he slept regardless of how long it took or how horrible it was for us both because I knew he needed that long nap). You can see then that I have done it every which way depending on how my LO was, how I was, what my goal was and what I felt was right at the time.

There is no hard and fast rule for this - you need to be comfortable with what you are doing and you need to be able to stay calm and supportive for your LO, that's the most important thing really, not how long you keep at it for.

Hope that helps.

[helbk]

Thank you. I'll see how she seems tomorrow and go from there. I'll definitely bear in mind how best to stay supportive of her as can imagine this is what could slip. Fingers crossed!