Author Topic: 10m still struggling with naps!  (Read 7086 times)

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Offline Melian Gray

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10m still struggling with naps!
« on: February 08, 2018, 11:33:58 am »
Hi BW community... Please help! DS is crying himself into hysteria before naps and can't/won't calm himself  :'(

DS is 10 months now, moderate LSN, been on EASY from birth, but only really started getting it right after buying Tracy's 'Baby Whisperer solves all your problems' at 3m. Sh/pt worked quite well, but I never withdrew as I didn't know I was supposed to and I never felt he went to sleep very easily, it was still a little bit of a struggle each time, but much better than before. I managed to get DS onto a 4 hour routine at 4m and things were looking good - he even went to sleep independently a number of times. However, ever since he started teething and crawling at around 6m it has been an ongoing battle which we are both losing.

He seems to be moderately advanced - he is taking steps already and has 8 teeth. There are so many things that could be going wrong - illness, AP, developmental changes - I feel as if I never blimming know what to do and it's driving me nuts. Or, I think it's developmental, but then I'm not sure how to adjust my wind down routine/how to get him to sleep! PUPD is quite hands off at this age, but when he starts spluttering and coughing he's crying so hard I feel at a loss of what to do! I don't want to leave him in his cot when he needs comfort, but I also don't want to AP him. I feel as if I am permanently doing PUPD without an end! Some days I think it's going OK, he only cries for 10min (would love this to be 0min on a good day!!), but then we go through a bad stretch and he gets so worked up I feel helpless. It doesn't help that he's been transitioning (on his own just about) to one nap for a while now - I've been having to go for a walk or drive for his second nap since he was about 7m, otherwise he fights his nap and will happily be awake for 7hrs! I've had quite a lot of success getting him to have one nap in the middle of the day and then having an earlier BT, but he still fights that one nap! (I still do 2 naps if there is more than 5.5hrs before BT, but it doesnt go as well as when he has one nap). Part of me thinks that he has now learned that this is how he goes to sleep?? I just don't know how to help him and it's killing me.

Take today for example:
Only had 10hrs sleep last night as he fought BT for an hour (cos he had a second nap of 40min at 4pm) and then woke up early this morning. Hence aiming for a 2 nap day, so am nap just before lunch then short pm nap.
6.10 woke up, BF, went back to sleep (so treated as a NW)
6.30 woke up again (?? Would have expected him to sleep til 7), BF (he cries if I don't - even when he's just had), stayed awake
7.30 breakfast
10.30 looked quite tired so did wind down. As soon as curtains and door closed starts crying and fighting me, so I put him down in his cot (as that's what I believe I'm supposed to do if he's fighting me...if he's still fighting after 10min I'll give up). At this point I usually sit on a stool in the passage (only got that far in the gradual withdrawal). Stands up, still crying. After a few min I go in put him down, give him his blanket and stuffed animal (which he still doesn't really take :( ), go back to my stool. More of the same. I give him some painkiller as he's crying as if he might be in pain. He seems comforted to suck the syringe, but starts crying when it's finished. After 10-15min I decide to give up, take him outside. He stops crying immediately.
11am lunch, soon he'll be getting hungry and then really won't go to sleep.
11.20 looks tired wind down again. And again, screaming, crying, standing. So it can't be pain, the painkiller will have kicked in by now. I try to comfort him, but he tries to climb up me. So I put him down and he starts getting irate. He starts coughing and spluttering and getting more and more hysterical. At this point I am torn, do I AP him and comfort him or do I leave him? I can't just leave him, so I pick him up. Tears are just streaming down his face. Now he's getting OT, he's completely worked up and I'm feeling desperate. I end up feeding him and he calms within seconds and passes out. Yes, this has happened before, but only when I honestly don't know what else to do.
11.45 Asleep in cot
12.55 wakes up crying, tried to resettle didn't work, BF, falls asleep again.
13.20 woke up (why?? Is this OT?) Now he's awake and happy.

He got stuck on 1h10min/1h15min naps but if he's tired enough he sleeps for 2 hrs or more. Usual A time is 4.5 - 5hrs (it seems a lot, but I still sometimes get the 1h15min nap! which is UT, right ?).  I have also tried to get him to take a transference object or lovey for a while now, but to no avail... He just struggles to calm himself before going to sleep - even when I have a nice long wind down! I don't think it's crib phobia, more like sleep phobia!

I need a second pair of eyes to see what's going wrong. Why can't I get BW to work at nap times?? Please, help... :'(
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 14:24:19 pm by Melian Gray »

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2018, 15:03:18 pm »
Hi there - sorry to hear you're having such a tricky time, it sounds exhausting.

A few questions:
At this point I usually sit on a stool in the passage (only got that far in the gradual withdrawal). Stands up, still crying. After a few min I go in put him down, give him his blanket and stuffed animal (which he still doesn't really take :( ), go back to my stool. More of the same.
Are you responding with verbal reassurance from your stool?
Are you going back in to him as soon as he calls/cries for you?
What happens if you just stay by him with a hand on him right the way to sleep?

I've had quite a lot of success getting him to have one nap in the middle of the day and then having an earlier BT, but he still fights that one nap! (I still do 2 naps if there is more than 5.5hrs before BT, but it doesnt go as well as when he has one nap
It's very early for one nap but I'm wondering if you have tried our just one nap every day and not switching between 1 and 2 to see what happens?

Any sign of reflux at all?  It sounds like you don't usually feed to sleep but that this is what he wants, I'm wondering if the sucking is his way of soothing the acid?

Usual A time is 4.5 - 5hrs (it seems a lot, but I still sometimes get the 1h15min nap! which is UT, right ?
This is kind of how mine was when UT.  Super long A time but needed longer to get a full nap of 2hrs.  Mine was fine with a shorter A time before BT though so although the morning was very long the afternoon was quite short.


Offline Melian Gray

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2018, 07:06:39 am »
Thank you so much for your reply!!

Are you responding with verbal reassurance from your stool?
Are you going back in to him as soon as he calls/cries for you?
What happens if you just stay by him with a hand on him right the way to sleep?
I am responding with verbal reassurance, but generally only when he calls out. So when he calls out, but in a non upset way then I use verbal reassurance and I only go to him when he starts crying or is upset. I thought they calmed better on their own at this age?
I've tried to keep my hand on him, but it seems to distract him and he rolls over to look at me like it's a game. But it depends on how calm he is - if he's calm enough then he just goes to sleep without me, if he's not calm and would need my hand on him then he generally does not lie down.

It's very early for one nap but I'm wondering if you have tried our just one nap every day and not switching between 1 and 2 to see what happens?
It is very early for one nap! To answer your question, I follow him - if he wakes up early or looks tired before 4pm then I give him a second nap.
My two EASYs are like this (BF is whenever he wakes up):
1 nap: 7am BF, 8am bkfst, 11am lunch, 11.30 story, 12 S, 2pm BF, 3.30ish snack , 5.15pm supper, 6.15 bath, 7 BT.
2 naps: 6.30 BF, 7.30 bkfst, 10.30 S, 11.45 BF, 1pm lunch, 2.30ish snack, 4ish S, BF at WU, 5.45 supper, 6.45 bath, 7.30 BT.

I'm finding, though, that he gets more total sleep if he doesn't get a second nap as he tends to then fight BT for longer than what he slept for. For example, yesterday he had a 20min nap at 4.30 (took a long time for him to fall asleep), but then only went to sleep after 8.40pm. He wasn't crying at BT, just playing in his crib and occasionally calling me.
I try to not let him sleep later than 4pm, or even 3.30, but I'm nervous of pushing him and him becoming OT. I'm finding he needs about 4 hrs minimum AT before BT, which means there isn't enough time in the day for a second nap though! It's such a toss up!
How about if I cap that second nap earlier, at like 10min? Will that help? Even though it usually takes 15-30min to get him to fall asleep...!  ::)

Any sign of reflux at all?  It sounds like you don't usually feed to sleep but that this is what he wants, I'm wondering if the sucking is his way of soothing the acid?
He had some reflux before 4m, but it wasn't clearly reflux as he also was having allergic reactions to nut and egg proteins that he getting through my milk. I don't think he has reflux now, but I will give him some antacid for his nap today if he is the same as yesterday and see if it helps.

So what do you reckon? Obviously if it is reflux, or silent reflux, then that's a medical problem that I can tackle, but if its not reflux? He isn't having any of his usual allergic presentations so I don't think it's his allergies (besides for which I give him antihistamines every evening).
I just don't get why he won't calm! I wish I knew how to calm him/how to teach him to calm himself... :(

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2018, 09:21:49 am »
I'm finding, though, that he gets more total sleep if he doesn't get a second nap
I'm always super cautious about suggesting an early move to one nap but what you are describing sounds like it might be worth a try.  Mine moved to one nap at 11 months (took a month to settle it because of OT causing his 1 good nap to turn into 20 min OT naps which I had to link with W2S to get him back onto 2hr naps) which was early but I've seen on the boards lower sleep needs LOs moving to one nap even earlier.
What is his night like after 1 nap?  Does he always wake early the next morning and is it an OT EW or is it a reasonable night and just a bit earlier WU than usual but with him seeming more refreshed?
Just wondering if you aimed for a nap at 12 every day whether a 6.30 or 7am WU he could start to regulate himself a bit better, being less resistant to naps and BT and therefore sleeping more soundly rather than all this fuss?

I thought they calmed better on their own at this age?
At any age if a LO can't calm down on their own they need support.  My 7yo has been an independent sleeper since about 8 wks old but even now if something is bothering him I'll get a call back at BT and need to go to him, leaving him alone would just add to his frustrations and damage the trust he has in me.  Yes it's true that when a LO is able to self settle and happy to do so having a parent in the room could well put them off, my DS was very young when he wanted me out of the room for him to fall asleep but I don't see it as a blanket rule, more of a general idea that if they are fine then leave them be and if they are not then help.  Equally if they are just "messing around" as toddler can do during tricky phases and are not actually upset, sometimes it is better to give instruction from outside the room rather than engage in their delay tactics. When mine was having a phase like that I sat outside his room and repeated "go to sleep" through the door, only going in when I could hear him running in the cot (dangerous so needed attention).

What is your usual wind down for naps? How long and what do you do? How does he react to each stage?
Is there any stage he calms and seems like he is ready for sleep?
If you APOP by feeding right before the nap either to drowsy or asleep does he end up having a good nap of say 2hrs?
You said he was quite mobile now, what happens if you set up an indoor assault course or races/catch where he gets loads of crawling exercise to physically tire him before nap - do you see a difference?


Offline Melian Gray

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2018, 12:18:25 pm »
What is his night like after 1 nap?  Does he always wake early the next morning and is it an OT EW or is it a reasonable night and just a bit earlier WU than usual but with him seeming more refreshed?
His night is usually good. He sleeps for 11 to 12 hours. The EW started as a NW around 4am ever since January when we went on holiday (which I've tried to curb with w2s and once pupd). It got later and later til now just after 6. He goes back to sleep unless there is a noise which startles him or he has slept for >11.5hrs already.

What is your usual wind down for naps? How long and what do you do? How does he react to each stage?
Is there any stage he calms and seems like he is ready for sleep?
Wind down: i pick him up and use lots of verbal cues around bring tired, nap time and time to go nighty nighty. He then usually rubs his eyes. I carry him into his room, close the door behind us. Tidy any messy toys, then put him on his change table and put a fresh nappy on. So far about 2min have passed. He usually looks very ready for bed at this stage. Then I pick him up again, we close the curtains and I have a little cuddle with him while standing, maybe one minute otherwise he starts climbing me. If I sit with him instead he climbs off my lap almost immediately; he won't sit still. Or I read him a 3min story then cuddle. He doesn't sit still for a story either and usually climbs all over the couch or the floor. Then I say night night and put him in his cot. He just about never goes straight to sleep. The crying usually starts when I've closed the curtains, or when I put him in his crib.

If you APOP by feeding right before the nap either to drowsy or asleep does he end up having a good nap of say 2hrs?
You said he was quite mobile now, what happens if you set up an indoor assault course or races/catch where he gets loads of crawling exercise to physically tire him before nap - do you see a difference?
Yes, he usually has a pretty good nap, unless he wakes around the 40min mark (either from swallowed air perhaps or maybe UT). I mostly can get him to go back to sleep then, but while feeding, which isn't helpful but it is the only way that he goes back to sleep. He more often than not does not wake up, though.
I can try to tire him out more. I have been so worried about making him too OT that I haven't thought of that. We usually play outside for a bit each morning, but he is more interested in things rather than racing around.

I have just put him down and it was exactly the same as yesterday, even though I gave him antacid and stayed with him the whole time, comforting him. So weird!! This frantic crying is new, but general crying and fighting sleep is not new... It might be developmental now as he is starting to walk - but I should surely still be able to calm him without APOP? !

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2018, 13:18:56 pm »
He usually looks very ready for bed at this stage. Then I pick him up again, we close the curtains and I have a little cuddle with him while standing, maybe one minute otherwise he starts climbing me.
What do you think would happen if, instead of picking up for a cuddle and to shut the curtains, you just said "you look ready to sleep" and picked up keeping him horizontal and just popped him right in the cot? Then quickly shut curtains and leave the room saying "call if you need me" ?  Any thoughts?
I realise your WD is already pretty short but some LOs who know how to self settle just can't be doing with all the faffing around that us mums think needs to be done.  I took mine into an already dark room and just sung one song and put him down and even then if he wanted to get to sleep he would put his hand over my mouth to shut me up and force me to move on in the WD to the part where I just put him down and left.  This is kind of what you were saying earlier about being more able to self settle if alone - it's very hard to say from a distance, only  you know what's going on but it's something just to think about.

I wonder too if instead of trying to break the feed to sleep habit at nap time what you think about just going along with it and moving to one nap? And then tackling the feed to sleep prop a bit later if the one nap routine works out okay for him?  any thoughts of trying out a full move to one nap needs him to nap well.

It might be developmental now as he is starting to walk - but I should surely still be able to calm him without APOP? !
These developments can totally wreck sleep so quite opposite to what I've said above you might prefer to ride out this tough patch and just wait it out on 2 naps to see if the phase passes?
As for calming him without APOP well, all kids go through very tricky times when they need help or even almost to be forced to sleep.  When mine dropped to one nap it went so sort, 20 min (OT) and he was refusing to go to sleep or stay asleep and as he had been non-APOP-able for about 10 months by that point I felt lost. It took *huge* effort on my side to "force" him to sleep using every magical trick I could imagine. One of the things i had to do was dance holding him with a CD playing loud and me singing for the entire CD (an hour??) before he would eventually nod off, I did that in the family room lights on curtains open because even going near his bedroom he would scream blue murder.  OK I wasn't feeding to sleep but this was some major AP attempt!  I never felt like he lost the ability to self sooth, I just saw it as a phase of development and transition of routine which needed to be got through.

Sorry I know i'm not giving any clear cut answers, more questions if anything, but it sounds like your LO is really fed up with nap time and I'm just trying to think out of the box about why he is so annoyed and fussing so loudly - what he is trying to tell you.  and also I think trying to reassure you that some AP or additional help through tricky phases doesn't totally wreck the ability to self sooth. In my experience my DS always returns to independent sleeping just as soon as he is able to and with little or no effort to break any habits either.


Offline Melian Gray

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2018, 17:49:40 pm »
Thank you so much for your response! I thought I'd try a few of your suggestions before replying again.

I have tried going down to one nap, and after a few days of only one nap I think he's doing better. He is definitely getting more sleep! About 11,5 hrs at night and 1,5 - 2hrs in the day, which is so great for my LO. I've found that his 'optimum' A time in the morning is 5.5hrs, any less and he gives me a 1h15min nap. Since your reply I have been feeding him to sleep, which has been - dare I say it - really easy and happy...  :-X I don't want to continue feeding him to sleep for long at all as it will just be more difficult to break the habit the longer I do. Any advice on how long I should continue? I'm thinking maybe just til the end of this week and then see if he can settle? I feel sad that I might be confusing him about how we now go to sleep. But I can't feed to sleep forever, it has to stop at some point so sooner would be easier, and better, for his sake.

On that, do you have any advice on how I should retrain him to fall asleep without feeding to sleep? Would I do strict PUPD? I have endured so much of his crying before sleeps, I'm sad to say I don't trust that I will know what intervention I should do. Unfortunately I don't think it's going to be as easy with DS as it was with your LO as he hasn't just come from going to sleep easily. I have gone through 4 months of having to evaluate and decide whether to intervene, and then if so, how to intervene, and I feel as if I have made the wrong calls or why then are we still struggling? Maybe it would be a good time to completely change his bedtime routine? I have tried to keep it the same from when he was 8 weeks old - perhaps it is not working and should be changed?

The worst part for me is that I know (or at least I think I know) that it is just going to get more difficult - sleep doesn't just sort itself out! I have put an inordinate amount of effort into DS's sleep - I really just want him to learn the skill of falling asleep happily!  :(  Thank you again for your help!!

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2018, 23:19:32 pm »
I thought I'd try a few of your suggestions before replying again.

I have tried going down to one nap, and after a few days of only one nap I think he's doing better. He is definitely getting more sleep! About 11,5 hrs at night and 1,5 - 2hrs in the day, which is so great for my LO.
Great!!! :)

How long has he been doing one nap now?
I'm still kind of cautious about moving forward despite your great news - it's only because he is still so young for one nap even though I know other LOs in the BW community have moved to one nap even young... I'm half expecting he will build up OT over a period of a couple of weeks and it might backfire or need further tweaking.  So just watch out for his mood during A time and any OT NWs which start and see if you can help him out with a longer nap or earlier BT.  If you can get day naps to 2hrs (or even longer) that would be great.

I'm thinking maybe just til the end of this week and then see if he can settle?
If he isn't used to self settling then it is unlikely he will just go for it on his own without some guidance and teaching but also it shouldn't be the hardest thing to help him with. I can see you've had a bit of a hard time with PUPD over the last few months, sleep training doesn't need to be a nightmare so try not to dread it :)
You can make a start now even with the feeding to sleep.  When he is near the end of the feed use a key phrase "sleepy time now". As you put him down in his cot tell him reasonably loudly so he can hear you in his sleep "I'm putting you in your bed now so you can sleep properly" [put down keep hand on] "Call if you need me" remove hand, walk out.  Introducing a key phrase or two now can help later on. It is also nice to let him know what you are doing.  You can even disturb him a little so that he half wakes and hears you telling him that he is going to bed.
*Always* return as soon as he calls or cries, don't delay. What he needs to know right now is that you always return when needed.  When you return put a hand on him, or pick up, use your voice to sooth "it's okay, it's sleepy time now". If he nods off in arms repeat your put down phrase so he knows where he is sleeping. If he doesn't nod off try to get him back to sleep and in the cot with your hands on if needed.  I don't think you will have quite the same level of fussing, crying out and resistance as you were before because he was UT then on two naps and resisting each of them, he is on a different routine now and will be far more tired and ready to sleep.

On that, do you have any advice on how I should retrain him to fall asleep without feeding to sleep? Would I do strict PUPD?
I'm not a great fan of PUPD to be honest, it's just not my personal style. If you want to go with that I can hold your hand and might be able to offer some tips as you go along but I personally prefer a more gentle approach.  Here is a link to the no-cry sleep solution FAQ, have a read and see what you think, this would be my preferred choice of moving forward, gently breaking the feed to sleep prop and teaching LO he is safe and secure in his bed.
The first post in this link contains links to the following posts in the same thread.  Have a look at the first item (gentle removal) which is about feeding to sleep, ignore bits about co-sleeping or anything that doesn't relate to your particular situation. Also read the last post which is about re-settling in the night, I know it's naps you need but the general idea is the same.  What would help you is if you got broad understanding of how the process works, how you do sooth LO but you also change it up a bit and reduce and reduce so that you don't get "stuck" in one place.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52857.0

You might even find that rather than making a "date to start sleep training" you actually just realise one day between now and next week that you've already started, bit by bit.  And anyway, rather than having a "date" to start on it is far more reliant on when you feel you know how to move forward, as soon as you know you will do it and if you don't know how to move forward then you aren't ready to start.

The worst part for me is that I know (or at least I think I know) that it is just going to get more difficult - sleep doesn't just sort itself out! I have put an inordinate amount of effort into DS's sleep - I really just want him to learn the skill of falling asleep happily!
I agree that sleep doesn't just magically sort itself out, I have a friend who went to bed with her 9 year old every night as her DD still hadn't learned to fall asleep alone (and likely a mum who wanted it that way to be honest).  And also LOs are hard work, they are, there are tricky times ahead with developmental leaps and teething which can both wreck even the best sleep routines.  But sleep training itself is something you can probably "get done" within a couple of weeks or even less.  Already your LO has managed a nap transition which mine found the hardest -  your DS has apparently just breezed through it!


Offline Melian Gray

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2018, 17:37:35 pm »
Amazing! Thank you so much - this gives me hope! I will try it and come asking for help in a few days no doubt.

I have been using a key phrase (forgot to mention it...), talking to him gently, telling him what's happening, and making sure he's awake when I put him down, so at least there's that!  ;)

I have noticed that he has been quite grumpy recently during A time, but it looks like he might be teething (the canines or molars are next  :() poor boy... He has had one or two NW, but at 1am or 2am. Am I right in thinking that OT would be wakings soon after BT?

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2018, 22:43:01 pm »
I have noticed that he has been quite grumpy recently during A time,
Yeah I think just watch out for this, OT could be building up over a number of days or weeks and he might need an extra long nap or a second nap thrown in even once.  It's a hard one to call, the consistency of just one nap helps him to regulate his sleeping and know what to expect and get used to it etc...but a big OT build up just needs an extra sleep.

He has had one or two NW, but at 1am or 2am. Am I right in thinking that OT would be wakings soon after BT?
Usually, yes. Or else very early waking in the morning and not going back to sleep.
NWs at 1 or 2am might be GS or teething perhaps. (or it could OT - I can't guarantee it's not)

Great that you've been using a key phrase and trying to get him down awake already.


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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2018, 20:35:10 pm »
Hi there, here I am asking for help, as predicted...

Positives first though : We are properly down to one nap and it is going really well! That's positive number one.
He is also sleeping better at night. He wakes up less (even STTN a few times) and I have been able to settle him back to sleep without feeding him a couple of times (at night). Huge, huge wins in my book!

The reason why I'm here asking for help is because I feel as if I'm in a sweet spot sleep wise and I don't want to miss this opportunity (like I missed withdrawing with shpt at 4 months...). I have been trying to withdraw with the feeding to sleep, but I haven't had any progress. If anything he is holding on longer and more urgently, as he anticipates me removing him from sucking. It has also then taken an hour to put him down a few times when he came off earlier than normal... I put him back on, but he was then not interested in going to sleep. Each time I was (virtually) certain he wasn't undertired. So gradual withdrawal isn't going as well as hoped.

So, I'm coming here for help with what I should do in this sweet spot. I'm not sure gradual withdrawal will work quickly enough to capitalise on this moment before he is more seriously dependent on feeding to sleep and I also don't want to revert back to the endless crying if there is a better option for my LO. But perhaps he will respond well to pupd/a drastic change right now?  I haven't tried anything drastic yet because I do not trust myself to not get it wrong!

I'm also growing more and more uncomfortable with feeding him to sleep as I don't like the road that it goes down. I don't know how one weans a child who doesn't take the bottle and who is fed to sleep! Besides for the obvious sleep problems that arise from using a prop...

Any advice? :)

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2018, 14:22:02 pm »
Hi
I'm going to link this again to check that you've read it and are trying the methods, eg the full feed and rapid sucking when it is needed for comfort and then breaking the seal and gently holding mouth closed etc...I have never done this as my LO didn't have a F2S or paci habit but I can visualise it and I do think the description in that post is a good one.  It is a back and forth back and forth until LO is almost asleep and you can put him down.  Whatever you are doing to resettle in the night without feeding to sleep sounds useful, what do you do then? Can you employ the same approach at nap and BT?

Some people don't mind about a F2S prop and just continue with it until LO is much older.  It is really up to you as to whether this is something you feel you want to tackle now or not.  It sounds like you do but I'm just checking.  Is it because you plan to stop BF at 12 months or something similar?

I wouldn't do anything drastic or plan on endless crying. It's not my preferred approach to anything.
It's great he is sleeping better, you can work on his ability to self sooth gently.


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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2018, 17:41:02 pm »
Ah, it is so great getting input! Thank you so much!

When I try to resettle him without f2s at night I have been successful with just holding him for a bit and doing a slow, rhythmic pat on his back til he is calm. Sometimes once is enough, more often he rolls over, gets up and cries, then I try again. I will try this at naps/BT if the opportunity arises!

I hear you, I will read it again. He usually starts crying as soon as he comes off, but I'm possibly missing something and will read it again.

I feel as if F2S is completely unknown for me, as in I don't see how it will end well (although I know there are plenty of happy people who do F2S). I just always thought that Tracy's stuff made so much sense.

I've just put him down and thinking about the whole process I think I might know where the problem is coming in. He usually drinks properly and then is happy to go down virtually straight away. He opens his eyes a bit, sees he's going into his crib, hears me say good night and then closes his eyes and goes to sleep when he's in his crib. It's been like that from when I started F2S. The problem perhaps is that I think I've been trying to make him come off sooner, while he is still drinking, because he closes his eyes and looks as if he is falling asleep but he is still actually drinking. I'm trying to do phase 2 of RachelC's post where you 'feed baby until she's SETTLED and SLEEPY, but not yet falling ASLEEP.' It looks like DS is falling asleep when he's still drinking.... If what I am saying makes sense, how would I continue gradual/gentle withdrawal from here? Does this mean I can go straight to phase 3 and instead of picking him up (as mentioned above)? I think my actual question is can I take closed eyes and drinking as settled and sleepy rather than falling asleep?

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2018, 19:48:43 pm »
I'm sorry I totally forgot to put the link in for you!  I had it open and copied and then didn't paste it!
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52857.msg1845481#msg1845481


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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2018, 20:10:02 pm »
From your description I am not really sure that you are feeding to sleep. You have continued to tell him he is going into his bed, not secretly putting him down and sneaking off, and he has continued to open his eyes to see when he is and knows he is in his bed and you are leaving.  I would say this is more like feeding to drowsy rather than to sleep.
Based on what you've said, it sounds like the crying was because you unlatched when he was still hungry and taking milk rather than him being asleep or sucking for comfort to get to sleep.  I think you've realised that now, so do make sure he has finished feeding.

I know you have re-read a different part of that gentle removal plan thread, I see where the phases are and think you can move along with the withdrawal.
When you put him down and he opens then closes his eyes then sleeps, do you just leave the room?
I would use a key phrase after putting him down (call if you need me, night night) and just go.

If you feel this is too dependent on feeding you could try feeding earlier and possibly in a different room so that after he has finished his BT milk you then carry him to bed, talking, "I'll take you to your bed now so you can sleep", as this would put a little gap between the two.

With regards to picking up or not picking up during night wakings, both BW and the no-cry solution have phases where you are not supposed to pick up but rather use a hand, verbal reassurance key phrase etc.  I found with my DS he was a great independent sleeper but if he needed me he needed a pick up, that's just how he was.  He still went back down awake.


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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2018, 08:39:37 am »
Sigh, DS just had his first proper sickness, but I think he's on the mend now... Sick LOs are so miserable! And their sleep goes up the pole...  ::) Back to business though!

Thank you for that insight! And Yay for it technically not being feeding to sleep, although it is definitely still a prop to get him to be drowsy. Previously when he would cry so much at nap times I felt as if it was because I was not able to calm him, to help him become drowsy, even when he was properly  tired. Now we're using feeding to calm him. I would use the exact same wind down routine, but it never made him 'get ready for bed' and become drowsy. Sigh... I would read and reread Tracy's stuff about how then LO would know sleep was coming and they'd be ready for bed. Not my LO... :(

When you put him down and he opens then closes his eyes then sleeps, do you just leave the room?
I would use a key phrase after putting him down (call if you need me, night night) and just go.
Yes, that is exactly what I am doing. I do sometimes wait at the door for about 30 seconds if it looks like he's going to stand up and cry, but 9 times out of 10 I leave straight away.

If you feel this is too dependent on feeding you could try feeding earlier and possibly in a different room so that after he has finished his BT milk you then carry him to bed, talking, "I'll take you to your bed now so you can sleep", as this would put a little gap between the two.
I haven't tried this yet, but my gut tells me that it won't work. He gets incredibly excited with a change of scenery. I might perhaps rather try to read to him inbetween. Starting with a one pg story then building up. Or even just telling him a story to start. He usually refuses to sit still during story time so I'd completely cut it from our routine more recently with feeding to drowsy.

With regards to picking up or not picking up during night wakings, both BW and the no-cry solution have phases where you are not supposed to pick up but rather use a hand, verbal reassurance key phrase etc.
OK great, thank you. I have been successful with this once before, so I will try it.

One question... This is quite a slow approach, which is great, but I can just see it taking months to train him as the next wobbly is bound to come soon and undo whatever progress I had made, which is how I got to this stage in the first place. To use an analogy, I feel as if we've fallen into an enormous crater and I'm not going to have built up enough momentum to get out when the slope gets steep again. I think subconsciously I'm wanting to do pupd properly and get to where we need to be again, but because of our history of failure I'm too scared to rock the boat.

After writing that I read the post again from the link. I think what I need to do is give it 10 days like they say and then re-assess. If there is no progress then we change tactic. That way it's not just an endless process. What do you reckon?  Thank you, again, for helping me along this journey! It really helps to not do this alone :) and sorry for my backwards and forwards continually!

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2018, 08:46:11 am »
And happy 10 year anniversary for last week!!  :D Amazing milestone - congratulations!

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2018, 18:58:51 pm »
DS just had his first proper sickness,
Sorry to hear that :(

I know there has been some thought over whether or not you are feeding to sleep, and it seems you are not.  Do you feel what you are doing now is an issue? Is it causing you problems?  For instance do you need someone else to be able to settle him down for nap or night and feel unable to do this because of the feeding part of the wind down? Or is it more that you feel you "should not" be feeding to sleep/drowsy and want to change it because the book says so?
If it is causing you significant problem then perhaps we need to tackle it in a different or more focused way.  If it isn't really causing significant problem for you then maybe just leave it as it is?  There are benefits to BF so if it doesn't effect his sleep pattern does it really matter??
All LOs get "hooked" on something for wind down. Mine had the same song that I sang to him at every nap and night for about 2 years.  Only eventually did we do a different song and over time shifted to a CD rather than my singing so although mine fell asleep alone he did have his wind down that helped him relax and get ready for sleep.

This is quite a slow approach, which is great, but I can just see it taking months to train him
Months is too long IMO.  Sleep training or changing habits doesn't take this long. If you know your goal (and perhaps your reason, as in above - does it need to change?) then you keep on moving on the training.  Habits can change in a matter of days or if going slower a couple of weeks.  Any slower than that and you are not moving forward.

Thank you, again, for helping me along this journey!
You're very welcome.
So have a think about if it's a problem or if it isn't so we can work out properly what your goal is and why, often us parents need to have a clear understanding of why we want something to change so that we can make the required moves..or so we can accept things how they are and be at peace with it instead of feeling guilt.


And happy 10 year anniversary for last week!!  :D Amazing milestone - congratulations!
Thank you very much :) I got a huge bouquet of flowers and a massive box of chocs...the flowers have lasted well, the chocs were demolished immediately lol  My DS made a gorgeous card for mummy and daddy with drawings of the three of us. It was very very sweet.


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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2018, 10:35:34 am »
Amazing. You are just amazing!

I know there has been some thought over whether or not you are feeding to sleep, and it seems you are not.  Do you feel what you are doing now is an issue? Is it causing you problems?  For instance do you need someone else to be able to settle him down for nap or night and feel unable to do this because of the feeding part of the wind down? Or is it more that you feel you "should not" be feeding to sleep/drowsy and want to change it because the book says so?
I do feel it is an issue. I even had a dream that my aunt who moved to China came and told me that I cannot feed DS to sleep (or before sleep at any rate). I would very much like to be able to have someone else put him to sleep, for multiple reasons. One being so that I can hire a babysitter and perhaps go to one of the weddings we get invited to instead of sending DH on his own. And yes, there is definitely an aspect of 'because the book says so', but that's cause what the book says makes a lot of sense, where I can't see the happy ending for my current path, only delayed problems. It really is an issue for me. Even though putting DS down has never been easier. I also feel that 'fixing' this sooner will be easier than fixing it later, which is another huge motivator.

Having said all that, if DS needs more time practicing being happy before falling asleep (if that's even a thing) then I'm happy to continue for a specified length of time. I obviously want what's best for DS in the long run. I just don't believe that having feeding as a prop is best for him.

Months is too long IMO.  Sleep training or changing habits doesn't take this long. If you know your goal (and perhaps your reason, as in above - does it need to change?) then you keep on moving on the training.  Habits can change in a matter of days or if going slower a couple of weeks.  Any slower than that and you are not moving forward.
That's exactly how I feel. DS has just managed to transition to one nap, which is big, but I don't feel I've made any progress with going to sleep independently in the past few weeks.

My honest (and possibly unrealistic) goal is to be able to go into his room, close the curtains, say my key phrase, put him down, walk out and then have him fall asleep in peace. So basically to have an independent sleeper. He's almost a year old; I would never have believed you if you'd told me a few months ago that I'd still be struggling so much with DS's sleep now. Not after following Tracy's stuff.

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2018, 19:47:23 pm »
OK, so as you really want to stop the feeding as part of the wind down how about you make sure the proper feed is on wake up (or at least during wide awake A time) rather than close to the nap time and then you know he is properly fed.  Then at nap time do a relatively rapid gradual withdrawal of the comfort sucking.  Give yourself a number of steps to follow which you think are both realistic and keep you moving forward, base them on the gentle removal plan but adapt it to your situation so for example begin your wind down using cuddles, holding, key phrase, a song etc and then lay him down. If he is unhappy with this then comfort feed for a short (and shorter) time each day. I think the gentle removal there is a method of counting to give yourself something to do and also so you know you are reducing. Have a look at that. In your planned steps remember that it can take 20 mins for sleep so your goal of "shut curtains, key phrase, put down, walk out" might be a little short. I would write down your plan so that you are clear on it.
Initially you might need to go back in several times or pick up several times to resettle. Remember that sleep training isn't necessarily always about what he wants - the BW methods involve crying but you never leave your LO so the cortisol levels are very low, Pantley's no-cry method is supposed to be possible without crying but personally I feel you might get a bit "stuck" in one place (where you are) if you expect no crying or fussing at all.
You need to be going fast enough with your movement forward to see some results within a few days even if you have not reached the end goal in that time.

Not sure if I have asked about a lovey?  Does he have one?  Have you tried to introduce one or does he seem to have a preference for an item to give comfort?  I love lovies, they give LO a real comfort boost.

Also, if you really want someone else to be able to put him down it might help to get someone else involved. Many  mums get dad involved to drop a F2S prop as LO knows Daddy doesn't have the boobs.  Could be something to think about?


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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2018, 14:20:23 pm »
Thank you, this is great, practical advice! I've just been dealing with LO still being sick, hence the delay...

Some questions to start, seeing as he is only on one nap would I do the same for BT and nap? Some places I've read suggest just starting with BT.
OK, so as you really want to stop the feeding as part of the wind down how about you make sure the proper feed is on wake up (or at least during wide awake A time) rather than close to the nap time and then you know he is properly fed. 
His nap is just after lunch (lunch 10.45 - 11.15, nap 12 ish). I would think that he's not hungry before his nap then, but he still takes a full feed before going down, perhaps out of habit/because he leaves some space for the feed at lunch. I'll try to make sure he gets a good lunch, perhaps a bit closer to his nap.

I love what you've said - I'm going to give it a go as soon as DS is reasonably better and can breathe normally.

Not sure if I have asked about a lovey?  Does he have one?  Have you tried to introduce one or does he seem to have a preference for an item to give comfort?  I love lovies, they give LO a real comfort boost.
Yes!! I have been trying and trying to get him to take a lovey because it would make such a difference! He has a soft toy and a little taglet blanket, but he usually just 'throws' them away from him whenever I give them to him. I've tried to have the blanket with us while he's feeding as he's come closer to taking the blanket than the bunny, but he still doesn't take it. I would LOVE for him to take a lovey....
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 14:22:04 pm by Melian Gray »

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2018, 19:08:45 pm »
His nap is just after lunch (lunch 10.45 - 11.15, nap 12 ish). I would think that he's not hungry before his nap then, but he still takes a full feed
Could you offer the BF directly after the solids lunch? He takes a full feed downstairs in his A time right after lunch and then when you go up for nap time you do comfort feeding with the reduction?  Initially he might not take a great deal after the meal and want more at the nap time but the idea is to offer and while you reduce the comfort feed he "should" (FX) increase what he takes after the meal instead.  You never know he might surprise you and take a great feed after the meal and not be all that bothered at nap/BT.
Lots of people do a milk feed directly after solids, Tracy put it in her weaning plan to finish the meal off with either water, milk or BF.  There are so many benefits to BF that if you are happy to continue with those after solids feeds then it can only be a good thing really.  At 12 months if you didn't want to BF after solids you could offer cows milk (if there is no allergy, I'm assuming not) in a sippy cup instead as toddlers and children still need milk (or a good substitute).

With the lovie - he might not like the texture or shape of the things you are offering. I think at this age it's usually expected they choose their own but you could still try. How about trying a muslin square (do you have those?).  You can wear it inside your top for a few days to get your scent on it, some people find this helpful.  My DS loves the wash label on his muslin squares, so much so that he has worn them out through years of rubbing and I had to buy silky feeling ribbon to replace the labels :)  What I love about the muslins is we have heaps of them so there is never a worry about wash day or losing one, they are so easy to replace.


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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2018, 10:44:31 am »
Could you offer the BF directly after the solids lunch? He takes a full feed downstairs in his A time right after lunch and then when you go up for nap time you do comfort feeding with the reduction?
... 
At 12 months if you didn't want to BF after solids you could offer cows milk (if there is no allergy, I'm assuming not) in a sippy cup instead as toddlers and children still need milk (or a good substitute).
That is such a great idea! I will start this immediately!! I'm hoping he will surprise me, that would be lovely! And this is a fantastic way to wean him finally if I choose to go that route in the near future. Thank you!

I have just tried to put him down now without feeding, then when he wouldn't stop crying I fed him in a separate room and then took him into his own room and tried to put him down but he would not settle/stop crying. So I fed him again, but he couldn't feed properly as his nose was now blocked from crying (he's still recovering from being sick). I noticed he was trying to self soothe with his fingers so I put him in his crib and he settled after a few minutes and went to sleep. I take this as progress! Sort of ;) I will try a BF straight after supper tonight and see if I can make more progress with BT.

With the lovey, I have a lovely soft bamboo Muslin which lives in his crib too. He has maybe once or twice sucked on it, but not recently. I'll try to keep it on me to get my scent on it and then try again. He has started stroking his sheet when I put him down though, strangely enough. Not sure his sheet counts as a lovey, though!
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 10:46:38 am by Melian Gray »

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2018, 18:58:41 pm »
He has started stroking his sheet when I put him down though, strangely enough. Not sure his sheet counts as a lovey, though!
This sounds good.
I wonder if you have something the same fabric as the sheet which you can make into a square lovey?  He might prefer the smoother texture rather than the muslin crinkly texture.
With my DS, he attached to the muslin very early on but I used it *all* the time. every time I picked him up there was a muslin, every feed, every cry, when he was bigger every bump and fall...I always comforted but always had the lovey there. The power of the soothing seems to increase the more you use it whenever you are giving attention and nurturing.

It sounds like you did make progress with the F2S. Perhaps try to aim for him to stay calm with the comfort feeding just prior to putting down so that he doesn't get so worked up and full of snot. Although you made progress I think putting down with no feeding was perhaps a bit too quick for him.
Hope this evening goes well for you.


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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2018, 20:53:20 pm »
Ok great, I'll have a look for something of the same texture as our sheet and try it. Our bamboo Muslin is incredibly soft, but it was too expensive for me to cut up! I tried to use the taglet blanket consistently from very early on, but as you say he might not have liked the texture.

It sounds like you did make progress with the F2S. Perhaps try to aim for him to stay calm with the comfort feeding just prior to putting down so that he doesn't get so worked up and full of snot.
Will try this now for his nap. He didn't take much of a feed after lunch, but I'm hoping that's cos of how much he ate :)
Last night was ok. It took a bit of backwards and forwards and he did end up basically becoming super drowsy while feeding, but it felt like progress to me.

Didn't manage to post this earlier so just adding in here... His nap wasn't great at all. I managed to keep him fairly calm falling asleep after a bit if backwards and forwards with feeding and putting in his bed. But then after 40min he woke up screaming. Couldn't have been pain as I'd given him pain meds before his nap. I eventually got him to settle and ended up only sleeping for another 5min though. Not sure what went wrong or if it was even related to this 'training'. He has been napping for 2h15 regularly recently, so did an early BT. This time only had to do backwards and forwards 3 times until he settled. He's woken twice now already, but only expecting to see him around 5am tomorrow morning (he wakes habitually at 5 - will tackle this again once I've made progress with going to sleep). So I suppose an average second day!

For my 'plan', this is unchartered territory for me, I'm not sure what the steps might look like/how he will respond and how long it will take, but I'm going to take it in 3 day increments I think and try to push him on a bit if I feel like he isn't making progress over those 3 days. My starting point is what you've suggested above, still comfort feeding, instead of going straight to no feed.
I'd like to see him having a significantly shorter feed by 3 days, and I'd like him to go down without any feed by day 9 perhaps? I'm then vaguely expecting some regression and hopefully everything will be settled (more or less) by day 15. Do you think this sounds reasonable? Any suggestions or ideas for other milestones that I could aim, for example at day 6?
Thank you again for all of your help, I'm sorry this is taking so long...!

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2018, 09:42:21 am »
I'm sorry this is taking so long...!
No need to be sorry.  I've had lots of support on the forums over the years and I like to "pay it forward" with support anywhere I can.

Your plan sounds good.  The main thing really is to keep yourself focused, keep him calm but keep moving forwards.
Use your key phrase and your hand to help comfort him as these are replacing the comfort he gets from feeding, so he needs the feeding just now but he needs the replacement already there so that he can get used to it.

The 40 min nap could have been just an odd one-off.  Had he gone to sleep a bit earlier that day perhaps?

Lovey - could you cut up an old shirt perhaps?  I'm thinking smooth cotton.  Or the cuff of a man's shirt as that part is stiffer and perhaps he likes the smooth flatness? (remove button of course and make sure there is no fraying he can suck on).


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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2018, 06:50:33 am »
Hello again!

OK, so I made some progress, although it was quite a bit slower than I had hoped as I was trying to minimise crying, then I started to lose focus and DS got gastro - there's a nasty bug going round! Luckily my worst symptom was nausea for a few days. Suffice to say not nearly enough progress was made :( I'm going to start again and try to be as focused as possible so I don't lose track again. I'm generally a very focused person, but I'm struggling with this a lot ! I am going to tweak the plan a little and allow a bit more crying to move things along. I'm starting to think that the pupd approach might work better for me as there are no half measures, but I am going to give this approach another, fair go. I find myself wishing that CIO wasn't such a bad option though, so I think my patience is starting to wear a little thin. My expectations with sleep on the BW method don't quite match the journey that I have had with my DS :/

Just wanted to give an update, albeit not a very good one! Thank you again for walking through this process with me, I am in a better place for your help!!

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2018, 08:10:17 am »
Sorry to you've both been ill :(

You sound like you're at the end of your patience. How about we review what's happening and what you want to happen?
He's on 1 nap daily, yes?  Can you post a recent EASY with the times and how you got him to sleep and if there was a struggle, how long he slept, what you did etc. For BT too and any NWs?

With the BF and F2S.  What is your goal now?  I see he is almost at his birthday!!!!  Did you plan to continue BF beyond 12 months or did you plan to stop BF altogether?

I think if you are even contemplating CIO then a stricter approach may be more beneficial for you, personally. So if we set out where you are at and what you want then perhaps I can help with your plan?

You know CIO is not the answer, days and days of screaming are not going to help your patience any and LO will lose trust in you - the trust and bond you put in now makes for healthy brain development and emotional security. This ground work doesn't *just* mean he develops as he should but also effects how he behaves and how you respond throughout his toddlerhood, childhood and adulthood.

hugs.


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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2018, 21:29:44 pm »
Yes, he is on 1 nap and even if that nap isn't great he makes to BT without being too OT and then makes it up overnight. This makes me more confident that I can go ahead with training as before I was terrified he'd become too OT.

Typical EASY which I achieved remarkably often:
6.30 WU BF
7.30 Breakfast
10.45 Lunch
12.00 - 2.00 or 2.15 nap
5.30 supper
6.45 bath
7.30 BT
Usually one NW in early eve, maybe 8.30pm, then one NW around 5.30am.

For going to sleep: I have been following your advice and giving him milk after his meal (have been giving in a bottle - I bought a bottle!) usually only about 60ml. Then around 11.45 take him into his room, change nappy, close curtains, feed. I try to keep the feed as short as possible without cutting him off midfeed. If he cries I try to still put him down, sometimes he settles within seconds, otherwise I feed him again for as short as possible, maybe 20 seconds, then shorter and shorter til it's no longer worth his while. I never made it to day 9, putting him down without feeding. Generally BT is easier than nap as his bath gets him ready for bed. With him being sick recently I've fed him for a bit longer at both nap and BT and there has been no struggle. Today I was quite strict and he took about 40min to settle (only did 3 short feeds).

If he wakes during his nap I feed him back to sleep. If he wakes up shortly after BT (up to 10pm) then I BF. If he wakes between 10 and 2am I try to not BF, but if he doesn't stop crying or settle after a few minutes then I either medicate and BF if I think there's something wrong, or just BF. If he wakes after 4am I BF. He doesn't usually wake between 2 and 4am.

With the BF and F2S.  What is your goal now?  I see he is almost at his birthday!!!!  Did you plan to continue BF beyond 12 months or did you plan to stop BF altogether?
My goal is to not feed at all before the nap and just have the post lunch bottle. At BT I'd like to feed (or eventually just bottle), then maybe have a story then to bed.
I had always assumed that he would wean himself before now, so hadn't expected to have to wean him. I think I'll start weaning him when he's 13mo thereabouts, sooner if it will help with training, but he still feeds a lot so think it will take a while to wean completely.

With CIO, I have never liked it or bought into it, but I keep hearing stories of it working with friends, so wish I could use it consequence free! But I'm not comfortable doing it myself.

I think if you are even contemplating CIO then a stricter approach may be more beneficial for you, personally. So if we set out where you are at and what you want then perhaps I can help with your plan?
Yes please! :)

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2018, 11:17:33 am »
Are you using formula or expressed breast milk in the bottles? Or did you switch to cows milk in the bottle as he is so close to 1yo?
Just wondering now if switching to bottle at the nap and BT feeds might make you feel like you are making more progress? Although you say you'd like to wean BF at 13 months. Just trying to get a picture of what you want to happen.
It's perfectly possible now, at 12 months, to stop BF and stop milk feeds (bottle or breast) at nap and BT and keep milk totally separate from sleep.  LO does still need some milk (usually twice per day), this can be breast, formula or cows milk and can be given in a bottle, sippy cup, straw cup or open cup (it is advised to drop bottles at 12 months - just as you bought one! But it is helping you just now so it wasn't a waste :) )
It's also perfectly possible to stop feeding mid nap and through the night.

I notice in your recent EASY that there are no solids snacks. When you started this thread your LO was 10 months and at that age I wouldn't always expect to see snacks included, but now he is almost 1yo, a "normal" or common routine would be
WU milk
breakfast
mid morning snack
lunch
mid afternoon snack
dinner
(when weaning the BT milk at 12 months I put in a supper snack with milk in a cup here)
BT milk

I think if you were to introduce a snack time mid-morning, keep a milk drink after lunch solids, and are prepared for some resistance (him crying) you can go ahead and stop the pre-nap BF.  You would stay with him throughout the process (no crying alone) picking up if needed and continuing to sooth in the cot until he is either calm or asleep.  You can either just go for it (and he will adjust over the next few days) or you can wait a few days whilst you get that snack introduced and either bottle or breast at nap time, reducing just as you have been doing and then stop.

I would probably keep the BT milk feed for now and tackle it a little later.  But you could switch to a bottle at BT instead of the BF if you wanted.
Even with keeping the BT milk you can introduce a supper (snack size or however much he wants to eat plus milk in cup or bottle) just prior to his BT routine bath etc and this will help to fill him up ready for the night.
Night feeds are not needed after 1yo (although people who choose to continue to BF may choose to keep night feeds for longer) so you can drop these and give comfort or water to help your LO settle back to sleep.

I think you are ready to make some changes so I'd just go ahead and make them. He is sleeping pretty well and he is old enough to get his nutrients from mainly solids, milk at this age is now a drink and part of a balanced diet, he needs the dairy for fats and nutrition but no longer for hunger.

I keep hearing stories of it working with friends
We often don't hear the full picture from friends. And even if you do, you don't know the knock on effect of their parenting methods down the line.
I k now you want changes so it's time to do it, just not the CIO way.

You can do this. Stay calm, stay supportive, do one thing at a time but be focused on your goal and feel confident that your LO is going to be okay with fewer (or no) BF. It is not the same as when he was struggling on two naps - you have a pretty good routine. Your just ready to cut those feeds for your own sanity I think.

OK?


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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2018, 10:57:46 am »
 Y E S !

I realised this weekend I'm at the end of my tether completely (like you picked up on the last post) and I'm happy to hear you say that I can drop the feeds as I respect your opinion massively.

I will stop BF before his nap TODAY, right now and will continue at BT for a few days. I'll use his Sippy cup and start using that instead of the bottle for milk after meals. I've been using half full cream cow's milk half water (what my mom did, is it better to do just milk?). And I have actually been giving him a snack in the afternoon around 3.30pm, not sure why I didn't include it. He doesn't always manage to eat much breakfast at breakfast and so his 'second breakfast' has effectively been a midmorning snack. Sorry, there's always so much information to convey, I don't always remember all the important information.

OK, I'll continue WU BF and BT milk (BF for now then just the milk with 'second supper' like you suggested) for a bit, until I decide to wean, and I'll continue BF at WU from his nap for a few days while my milk supply adjusts to not feeding to sleep.

From what I understand from what you've said while he is crying I'm just going to try to keep him in his crib without picking him up, unless I feel he really needs it, right? Can I just go for generally not picking him up? I'm wanting to be as binary as possible so that I can stick to it and not make some new prop. And how long is too long for crying? Is there any point when I must change tack? Previously I think 45min was a good time to stop, but with him being older I can imagine it would be longer?

T H A N K   Y O U  so much!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 11:09:20 am by Melian Gray »

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2018, 12:54:37 pm »
Quick update, he went down for his nap after only 30min of crying! Expected it to be a whole lot longer. Very pleased :) Didn't pick him up, just kept gently putting him down. He only slept for 1h10min, but it was a bit later than normal so should easily be able to get him to bed early enough. Yay!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 12:59:27 pm by Melian Gray »

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2018, 16:56:18 pm »
And how long is too long for crying? Is there any point when I must change tack? Previously I think 45min was a good time to stop, but with him being older I can imagine it would be longer?
Need some advice on this. Last night he woke up at 23.00. At 23.17 he stopped crying and it looked as if he was going to fall asleep (I was so excited!), but he started crying again and did not settle until 11.2!! :o I did not feed him, just gave him water (and pain meds at 23.25).  I kept trying to problem solve what need he might have that was keeping him from sleeping (overheating, teething pain etc) but alas, he lost 2h20min of sleep!

He then woke again at 4.50. After 3min of him screaming I decided to just feed him, as I could just see him not going back to sleep and he'd lost quite a lot of sleep already.

I feel I did the right thing, and will try to not feed him for any NW tonight, but just thought I'd throw it out there and see if there's any insight from the more experienced people as to what to do in that situation. I didn't think feeding him after the prolonged crying would be all that helpful as then it just teaches him to cry longer to be fed, but then wasn't sure if I should also not feed him at the second NW even if it meant not going back to sleep. I'm most concerned with the 2h20min NW... He kept looking as if he would settle, but just wouldn't. Do you call it - take him out of his bed, switch the light on, sort out anything and everything you can find that might be wrong? I tried to not disturb him too much, he kept looking like he would fall asleep... :(

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2018, 18:26:13 pm »
The thing to remember at this point is that you are making some big changes and things will not be smooth sailing for a few days. He will very likely have a shorter nap or a shorter night or longer NW.  Don't worry as long as you are there with him and you stay calm, that is your key thing - do not join him in the frustration, you don't need to.  use all your energy to be supportive for him.

With PUPD at this age it is just put down.  Now, my DS could never settle back to sleep if he woke unless i picked him up so no matter how old he got he had a quick pick up cuddle and then down again, he settled very fast like that.  Tracy's PUPD method I have never used properly myself (didn't need to) but I do trust that it is fine to just put down and stay. Hand on if needed, key phrase is very helpful too. I have repeated key phrases like a hypnotic mantra before and that seemed to be helpful.
You can pick up if you feel it is helpful or if he is very upset but you can also trust that being with him and using your hand and voice is supportive.
You know he is well fed so these WUs and not settling back are frustration and the change to how he is to fall asleep.
If
Is there any point when I must change tack? Previously I think 45min was a good time to stop
Change tack if you lose your patience. Nothing is worth you losing patience and getting frustrated or angry, if you are you need to either stop (take him out of cot if it's nap time and just start A time) or walk away, take a very deep breath and go back.
So long as you are calm you can continue for 45 min or up until the end of nap time.

The NWs are not going to stay this long - he may have been OT from the shorter nap and he will have been frustrated.  it is going to settle down.
Do make sure he is getting his meals and milks and then trust he has no need for hunger in the night.

hugs too, you can do this x


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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2018, 20:51:43 pm »
Hello again! I cannot tell you how pleased I am with the progress we have made!!! On day 2 he went to sleep in about 15min for his nap and only woke after BT at 5am. He cried for an hour and a bit, but then fell asleep again and that was the last time he woke up at 5am! The next day, when I put him down for his nap he didn't cry at all, just lay in his crib, eyes open, but happy, rolled around a bit and then fell asleep! I was by the door out of sight and he didn't even need me. Now he is basically falling asleep independently at his nap and BT and he is STTN consistently!

I had quoted various sections of your last post, but everything you said was just so helpful and really put me in the right frame if mind. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

We have turned the corner and while I know that at the next developmental leap we're likely to have a bit of difficulty with sleep (or at the next teeth, or whenever), I know that we won't ever go back to where we were at the beginning of this thread and I am just thrilled! I could not be more pleased with the outcome. Yay for a happy ending  ;D Thank you again for all your help!

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2018, 09:37:16 am »
Hi there, sorry it looked like I abandoned you, I have a very bad back and haven't been able to sit at the computer for over a week so I'm only just seeing your update.

And what an amazing update it is!!!  ;D

Wow, you really put the work in and it paid off. He sounds very happy to go to bed and sleep well.  Lovely.

Thank you for taking the time to let us know the great news x