Author Topic: Please help me tweak A time!!  (Read 5401 times)

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Offline Tabyria

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Re: Please help me tweak A time!!
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2018, 11:11:46 am »
 thanks! She's 17 weeks but only 4months just a few days ago (unless when we say months we still count in weeks?).

I think I'm getting better at reading UT/OT as she's had plenty of both  ;D I really think this morning nightmare is OT as she  gets frantic, limbs going in all directions, super red ans hot to the touch: far too much adrenaline...
I must say it seems a bit counterintuitive to push for a longer A time when she's had such a crap night and wakes up already exhausted, rubbing eyes etc. But if the rubbish night is caused by the first short A time then we need to try to break it. She might need to go through this before getting used to a long A time in the morning as she's always had a short one before.

 I've been trying to get her to sleep for 3h, so 5h A time now... I stopped to feed her at some point and she was falling asleep at the breas but she keeps getting frantic again each time. I've given up, will put her in the pram and walk for as long as she accepts to sleep for.

Tough way to start the day, I've slept 3h last night, it's 12.15 and I haven't eaten anything yet. Not to mention the fact that I feel like I'm failing her so much and I'm worried about her health. I really find this stage harder than newborn
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 12:26:51 pm by Tabyria »

Offline becj86

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Re: Please help me tweak A time!!
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2018, 07:57:21 am »
I've been trying to get her to sleep for 3h, so 5h A time now...
Constantly? Wow! You're persistent. Its worth trying for 10-15mins then giving yourself and LO a break then trying again as otherwise you can both get really worked up and nobody's going to benefit from that.

How did your walk go?

Offline Tabyria

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Re: Please help me tweak A time!!
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2018, 08:18:14 am »
Well she needs to sleep so yes I'm persistent. And I don't stop because she goes through cycles and gets really close to falling asleep with eyes closed etc then starts crying again but can calm down etc. If that escalates I pick her up and we do a cuddle, etc, I don't let her cry for 3h. It can work at any point and stopping to go back downstairs just makes it worse as that stimulates her again I find, unless you use the pram. She was indeed getting worked up in the end that's why I stopped and changed tac.

Walk went well. She slept for three hours 1.30-4.30pm (waking up but connecting cycles) which means I also pushed the pram for three hours! As much as I had slept the night before...

We tried for a nap at 6.30pm but she wouldn't go down so we went for an early bedtime at 7pm. However, she refused to sleep until 9.15.
Then restless night again.  She only slept 3x40min between 2.30am and 7.30, and so did I. No crying, just trying to go to sleep for up to 1.15min every time time.

And we're up for the day again at 7.30 it seems :( So much for moving it to 8.30. I keep her in bed until 8.30 to let her know this isn't time to get up...Hope that will work.

She has huge dark circles and I'm exhausted. No way I can do another 3h walk to make her sleep today so I certainly won't push for 2h A time if she starts rubbing her eyes after 1h40!! Can't deal with another OT monster. I just don't think this can work when she wakes up already sleep deprived.

You're very patient. I will stop using this thread as my diary for your own sanity and will come back with EASY schedules after a few days. Thanks!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 08:37:46 am by Tabyria »

Offline becj86

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Re: Please help me tweak A time!!
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2018, 08:33:48 am »
Wondering if there's some growth spurt at play here. There's a huge one around this age and I struggled until I worked out that he was crying due to hunger all the time (like every 1-1.5hr I was feeding after he had been 4hr between feeds).

You're very patient. I will stop using this thread as my diary for your own sanity and will come back with EASY schedules after a few days. Thanks!
Don't worry about my sanity! Its gone. Yours is still salvageable, so if you need to post, do so. If you need to take a break from thinking about it too much, don't post. Whatever works for you is fine by me.

Reading about the longer wake times and inconsolability and the bad night, I wonder if she's ill or teething or hungry - it unusual that this type of behaviour would continue for this long without there being some reason.

Offline Tabyria

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Re: Please help me tweak A time!!
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2018, 12:14:33 pm »
I was wondering about that.
There's definitely a bit of teething going on. I don't think she's ill but there might be something to do with her feeds. She used to eat more often but has started refusing the breast more and I think she's getting into a 4h now, which sometimes clashes with nap time when they don't happen straight away. Not sure at night: she would call if hungry instead of going back to sleep without crying after 1h, wouldn't she??
We're bang in the middle of leap#4 if you believe in that kind of thing so that might just be that.

Love it about your sanity  ;D I'm sure I'll be in the same state in seven years. Nearly there already
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 18:51:54 pm by Tabyria »

Offline becj86

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Re: Please help me tweak A time!!
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2018, 11:29:41 am »
We're bang in the middle of leap#4 if you believe in that kind of thing so that might just be that.
Could well be that.

Not sure at night: she would call if hungry instead of going back to sleep without crying after 1h, wouldn't she??
She's waking frequently at night but going back to sleep with no intervention? Or is she awake for an hour without being upset and then going back to sleep?



Offline Tabyria

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Re: Please help me tweak A time!!
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2018, 14:32:14 pm »
She tries to go back to sleep (no playing or cooing, eyes half open or closed, turning to one side to the other, rubbing her eyes, slamming the mattress with feet and sighing. It lasts from 15min to 1h15min) and eventually succeeds. Sometimes I put a hand on her to help when it takes a long time but it doesn't always help. I've realised yesterday that she might be more in a semi sleep or light sleep for some of it, but when she rubs her eyes even though they're closed I imagine she's awake..

Quick question: when pushing for longer A time, do we totally ignore other signs like eye rubbing, yawning, cranking, head heavy on shoulder etc? She sometimes does it after just 1h (which is how I put her down once after 50min and she slept for 1h30) but I keep her up and naps are nearly impossible to get. I still get OT naps where she wakes up with a jolt at 30min (no stirring so I can't extend). So far I've been trying putting her down anywhere between 1h50 and 2h05, taking into account a 10 or 5min wind down. No combo seems to work so far. But again, that might just be a weird phase.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 19:47:17 pm by Tabyria »

Offline becj86

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Re: Please help me tweak A time!!
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2018, 21:31:00 pm »
I've realised yesterday that she might be more in a semi sleep or light sleep for some of it, but when she rubs her eyes even though they're closed I imagine she's awake..
Probably - babies have a lot more REM sleep than adults do. If she's not upset, just leave her to it. You putting a hand on her may even be disturbing her sleep too. I did the same thing with my DS and eventually learned that when this happened at night, he was just dreaming and more often than not, I woke him by trying to get him to settle.

I still get OT naps where she wakes up with a jolt at 30min (no stirring so I can't extend).
I think its worth trying being there at 25mins and just shushing or having a hand on her.

Her sleepy cues seem pretty unreliable if her naps are anything to go by. I have had success using the clock to decide when to look for cues, so by that I mean knowing A time should be about 2hr and assuming crankiness, etc before 1:45 is something other than tiredness then watching for cues between 1:45 and 2:05 then putting down for a nap even if there aren't cues. If you can get through 3-4 days of being really consistent with A times of 2hr, cues should become reliable again.

Offline Tabyria

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Re: Please help me tweak A time!!
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2018, 17:30:48 pm »
Ok, so one week on and it's a mix bag. We've had success with long naps a couple of times (highlighted below) and overall earlier bedtime. Clocks have changed which seems to finally bring the 8.30-8.30 day we were after (may it last!). So progress, definitely :) She also settles quickly, which leads me to think we have the right A time (2h10/2h15). But doing the same thing doesn't always bring similar results.
* It's not helped by the fact that she seems to go through phases when she doesn't want to eat for hours, so I suspect she might be hungry between sleep cycles... not sure. I imagine it's definitely keeping the one, sometimes two, night feeds necessary but that's another conversation... I might post separately on the Feed board for that.
* We're getting false starts in the evening too, which I always thought were linked to OT but lately it's happened when we had a late-ish nap leading to a strict 2h-ish A time before bedtime, which I thought was perfect... so maybe she needs more to have more sleep pressure?
* We used to always try to add an extra nap if we felt the gap before bedtime was too long (in pram as she won't go down after 5pm) but it has never really helped, and that meant that bedtime could be anytime in a 2h window during the week. We're now trying a more set in stone bedtime, even if that means she's sometimes OT, to see if the routine of a set bedtime helps in the long-run.
* She's still in a very noisy light sleep after 5/6am, tossing, turning and having little cries every 30/45min or so (cycle transitions I imagine), sometimes waking up around 7am and chatting to herself before going back to sleep if we don't engage.

She's just turned 19weeks (but will be 5months -date to date- in 2weeks). I'm thinking of trying systematic 2.15 A time next week and see what happens.
We always try to resettle after short naps, which never works. W2S never worked either when she was younger but maybe I should try again.

Anyway, here are the last few days:

TUESDAY
A 8.00
E 8.18
A 8.30
S 10.12

E 11.33

A 11.55
S 13.55

A 14.00 (woken up by noise argh)
S 14.39
A 15.06
refused to eat during afternoon
Bath 18.30
E 19.55 - 20.01
S 20.05
E 23.40 (??) & 3.58

WEDNESDAY
A 8.25
E 8.45 (threw up all feed)
E 9.13
A 9.21
S 10.36

A 11.13
E 12.00
A 12.05
S 13.58

A 14.31
E 15.30
A 15.39
S 16.29

E 17.37

A 17.45
Bath 18.45
E 19.04
S 20.15
20.30 woke up crying. Settled in 2min by herself.
21.00 woke up screaming. Took 30min to calm down.
22.00 woke up crying. Took 2min to settle

E 01.22 & 05.10

THURSDAY
A 8.20
E 9.10
A 9.16
S 11.20 (took a bit of time. Settled at 10.55 but only dozed, with jolts and eyes rubbing until 11.20)

A 11.49
E 12.10
A 12.16
E 14.45
S 15.26 (took 1h30 to settle. Included little breaks and one feed)

A 15.53
S 17.30 (in the pram)

A 17.58
E 18.07
A 18.21
Bath 18.45
E 19.16
S 19.59
20.10 woke up crying. Took 2min to resettle
21.18 woke up crying. Took 15min to resettle

E 01.35 & 5.48

FRIDAY (so far)
E refused all morning
A 08.00
S 10.07

A 10.45
E 11.08
A 11.12
S 13.07

A 13.47 (woke up screaming)
E 14.12
A 14.17
S 15.50

A 4.25
E 4.45
A 4.51
Bath 18.30

Thank you so much for having a look. Let me know if you spot something that I don't which makes sense to you!
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 17:47:00 pm by Tabyria »

Offline becj86

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Re: Please help me tweak A time!!
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2018, 06:25:20 am »
S 10.12E 11.33
S 16.29E 17.37
So these are both longer naps than your usual 40-45min naps. They are still UT though - she's not getting through to 1.5hr...

A 11.13E 12.00A 12.05S 13.58A 14.31
Here, after 1:45 A time, she's OT.

S 11.20 (took a bit of time. Settled at 10.55 but only dozed, with jolts and eyes rubbing until 11.20)A 11.49
I'd probably call that a nap from 10:55 then - jolts are normal, adults have them too as we fall asleep and as we wake. They don't mean we're not asleep.

* It's not helped by the fact that she seems to go through phases when she doesn't want to eat for hours, so I suspect she might be hungry between sleep cycles... not sure. I imagine it's definitely keeping the one, sometimes two, night feeds necessary but that's another conversation... I might post separately on the Feed board for that.
After she wakes having not fed for several hours, does she feed well?

* We're getting false starts in the evening too, which I always thought were linked to OT but lately it's happened when we had a late-ish nap leading to a strict 2h-ish A time before bedtime, which I thought was perfect... so maybe she needs more to have more sleep pressure?
I'm not sure what you mean by 'more sleep pressure'? Often those false starts at night are OT but they can also be overstimulation, some form of discomfort, eg. teeth, gut esp. when you just start solids, etc.

* We used to always try to add an extra nap if we felt the gap before bedtime was too long (in pram as she won't go down after 5pm) but it has never really helped, and that meant that bedtime could be anytime in a 2h window during the week. We're now trying a more set in stone bedtime, even if that means she's sometimes OT, to see if the routine of a set bedtime helps in the long-run.
This is worth trying - stick with it for a couple of weeks to see if it will work. Do you think 8:30-8:30 will suit her? Some babies are fine with it but many would really struggle.

* She's still in a very noisy light sleep after 5/6am, tossing, turning and having little cries every 30/45min or so (cycle transitions I imagine), sometimes waking up around 7am and chatting to herself before going back to sleep if we don't engage.
Disturbing as that is for your sleep, its actually normal, though an increase in that first A time may help with the chatting around 7am.

I don't think there's a great role here for W2S - she's able to make it through the transition from one sleep cycle to the next on her own at times, so its more working out a routine that suits that will help in my humble opinion.

I think all things considered, I'd go as you plan to, for an A time of 2:15 for 3-4 days keeping it really consistent and see how she goes with that.

Offline Tabyria

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Re: Please help me tweak A time!!
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2018, 11:19:15 am »
Thanks! Ok, I'm doing 2.15 A time and will report back.

To answer your question, after sleeping and after several hours she sometimes will eat, sometimes not. The other day for example, she had proper feeds at 6am and 12pm but just a 1min snack at 9am. I'm not worried, she is fine but some days she won't have a proper feed for 8h, just two 1min snack for the first half of the day. I think it's a distraction issue as she then becomes really hungry at nap time and ears very well before half falling asleep on the boob, which she's never done before. I've tried feeding before opening the curtains in the morning but it doesn't change anything. If there has been a feed less than 6h earlier she's just not hungry, which throws the all easy out of the window straight away as she won't eat until she's in her cot for a nap. Hope it's just a phase...

I thought babies would be on any rythm as long as it was 12h. She seems to struggle with 8.30-8.30 as she was up again at 7am the other day in spite of falling asleep at 9pm yesterday :(  (OT behaviour I think). I'm ok with her finding another rythm if it suits her but there's no consistency so hard to know what she needs. We do bath at 6.30 or 1h30 ish after the end of her last nap, whichever is the earlier, and from that on it depends on how long she eats for and how long she takes to go down. She can eat for 15 or 45min and then takes anything between 15 to 60min to fall asleep. We've tried bath earlier (5.30pm or 6pm) but then she often refuses to eat and I have to wait up to half an hour until she finally accepts the breast (she cluster-feeds every hour for the last three hours before bed and in that case I move the earlier feeds as well but that doesn't always work).

I'm very confused because we've had two very different days that don't make sense to me.
Yesterday, she woke up at 7.15, had a 50min nap at 9.30. It then took 1h to get her to sleep for her midday nap because I insisted on her falling asleep with me out of the bedroom, so she fell asleep at 1.20 after 3h A time and I thought we would get a crap OT nap but we got 1h25! (I know it's not 1h30 but pretty close and awesome for us!) She then refused to nap at 5pm, so that was 4h of A time...I was bracing myself for a hard evening but she fell asleep at 7.15 beautifully, without a sound!! And she slept very soundly without being restless :)
Today, she woke up at 7.30. We managed to get her to nap 45min, not more, with perfect A times of 2h15/2h20min, and last nap finishing at 5pm. Bath same time as yesterday at 6.30pm and down to sleep at 7.15. She seemed sleepy initially but was very excited within 5min and wanted to talk, grab everything, practice rolling, giggle, and cried when we tried to leave her to sleep (strangely seemed UT!). She finally fell asleep at 10pm only because I gave her my finger to suck on, something I hadn't done since she was a few weeks old!! What did we do wrong?? Why is it working less well when we follow the textbook?? Or did she get too OT yesterday and it's backfiring? She can't possibly need a 2-3-4 schedule, can she?? (I think these only work for much older babies and I really wasn't trying to implement it). No idea but I'm pretty burnt out tonight.

We'll get her up at 7.30 tomorrow (but she'll certainly wake up early from OT anyway) in order to try to set a schedule in place. We'll now aim for a 7.30-7.30 day which might work better for her.

(btw, wanted to say thanks and you were right about increasing the first A time. She clearly can handle it.)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 07:00:43 am by Tabyria »

Offline becj86

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Re: Please help me tweak A time!!
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2018, 06:32:29 am »
I thought babies would be on any rythm as long as it was 12h.
Some babies are this flexible, some aren't. My son, for instance, did best with 6-6 but coped ok with 7-7 for a while, others I've seen here do really well with 9-9.

We've tried bath earlier (5.30pm or 6pm) but then she often refuses to eat and I have to wait up to half an hour until she finally accepts the breast (she cluster-feeds every hour for the last three hours before bed and in that case I move the earlier feeds as well but that doesn't always work).
I think if you were going to change the bath time, I'd make it in the morning rather than just earlier in the evening.

She seemed sleepy initially but was very excited within 5min and wanted to talk, grab everything, practice rolling, giggle, and cried when we tried to leave her to sleep (strangely seemed UT!). She finally fell asleep at 10pm only because I gave her my finger to suck on, something I hadn't done since she was a few weeks old!! What did we do wrong??
This sounds like she was overstimulated then got OT because she struggled to get off to sleep.

She can't possibly need a 2-3-4 schedule, can she??
Some babies do... Mine did the complete opposite - 4-3-2 at 8-9 months but I think 4hr is too much for your LO at this stage.

Offline Tabyria

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Re: Please help me tweak A time!!
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2018, 18:56:44 pm »
Thanks a lot!
Mmm...bath in the morning. That's an interesting thought. But it is the strongest cue within our bedtime routine since she was 6 weeks old so I'm not too keen on moving it. Plus, it's the daddy time she has during the day, so if that can work for her, we would like to keep it. Will keep it in mind though if bedtime remains rocky. We've had more success with a bedtime between 7-8pm in the past week, with feeds at 5.30 and 6.30 (before&after bath). The last two days were 7.30-7.30. Still trying to figure out if that's the pattern she needs but that would work for us.

We're having a BIG breakthrough with morning naps after 2h15 A time: two 1h15 last week and two 1h30 so far this week (yesterday and today). Hopefully this will happen more and more often!  :D :D 

Now, the issue is that after such a long sleep, she doesn't want to go down after 2h15 for the next nap. She's still very refreshed at that point and resists it. We've pushed it a bit to 2h20/2h25 to see and she went down easily (4minutes by herself with her lovey) but ended up with 35min naps both times, so that would mean OT...

It gets worse as she then refuses to go down for a nap at 4pm (2h or 2h15 after the 35min nap). So, even though we have a first long nap, the overall amount of daytime sleep remains exactly the same or even less than before, and she's obviously OT in the evening (no crying, she's very easy to be around bless her, but lots of eyes rubbing and difficulty to go to sleep or taking ages to feed resulting in a later bedtime). Not sure there's anything we can do at this stage. Maybe just stick with it and hopefully she'll get used to the new pattern and find her feet?!

Offline becj86

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Re: Please help me tweak A time!!
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2018, 23:17:41 pm »
We've had more success with a bedtime between 7-8pm in the past week, with feeds at 5.30 and 6.30 (before&after bath). The last two days were 7.30-7.30. Still trying to figure out if that's the pattern she needs but that would work for us.
This is good progress :)

We're having a BIG breakthrough with morning naps after 2h15 A time: two 1h15 last week and two 1h30 so far this week (yesterday and today). Hopefully this will happen more and more often!
That's great :) Keep in mind that A times increase ~15mins every fortnight or thereabouts, so if the nap starts getting shorter again or she's waking earlier or having cot parties in the early hours of the morning, its time to increase again.

She's still very refreshed at that point and resists it. We've pushed it a bit to 2h20/2h25 to see and she went down easily (4minutes by herself with her lovey) but ended up with 35min naps both times, so that would mean OT...
35min is tricky - not necessarily OT... Any chance of resettling?

So we now know that she *can* in the right circumstances, take a long nap. Its just now a matter of tweaking to find the sweet spot for her. As she gets used to the new A times, she may well start napping better.

Offline Tabyria

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Re: Please help me tweak A time!!
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2018, 10:09:48 am »
Thank you! Didn't manage to resettle the 35min nap. Tried 2h30 and we had a 25min nap so I don't think she's ready for that long yet. Will keep in mind that we might get there soon though.
I think I see a lot more clearly now and can navigate on my own (for the time being at least). Thanks a lot again for all the help!