Author Topic: 10m still struggling with naps!  (Read 1107 times)

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Offline Melian Gray

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2018, 08:39:37 am »
Sigh, DS just had his first proper sickness, but I think he's on the mend now... Sick LOs are so miserable! And their sleep goes up the pole...  ::) Back to business though!

Thank you for that insight! And Yay for it technically not being feeding to sleep, although it is definitely still a prop to get him to be drowsy. Previously when he would cry so much at nap times I felt as if it was because I was not able to calm him, to help him become drowsy, even when he was properly  tired. Now we're using feeding to calm him. I would use the exact same wind down routine, but it never made him 'get ready for bed' and become drowsy. Sigh... I would read and reread Tracy's stuff about how then LO would know sleep was coming and they'd be ready for bed. Not my LO... :(

When you put him down and he opens then closes his eyes then sleeps, do you just leave the room?
I would use a key phrase after putting him down (call if you need me, night night) and just go.
Yes, that is exactly what I am doing. I do sometimes wait at the door for about 30 seconds if it looks like he's going to stand up and cry, but 9 times out of 10 I leave straight away.

If you feel this is too dependent on feeding you could try feeding earlier and possibly in a different room so that after he has finished his BT milk you then carry him to bed, talking, "I'll take you to your bed now so you can sleep", as this would put a little gap between the two.
I haven't tried this yet, but my gut tells me that it won't work. He gets incredibly excited with a change of scenery. I might perhaps rather try to read to him inbetween. Starting with a one pg story then building up. Or even just telling him a story to start. He usually refuses to sit still during story time so I'd completely cut it from our routine more recently with feeding to drowsy.

With regards to picking up or not picking up during night wakings, both BW and the no-cry solution have phases where you are not supposed to pick up but rather use a hand, verbal reassurance key phrase etc.
OK great, thank you. I have been successful with this once before, so I will try it.

One question... This is quite a slow approach, which is great, but I can just see it taking months to train him as the next wobbly is bound to come soon and undo whatever progress I had made, which is how I got to this stage in the first place. To use an analogy, I feel as if we've fallen into an enormous crater and I'm not going to have built up enough momentum to get out when the slope gets steep again. I think subconsciously I'm wanting to do pupd properly and get to where we need to be again, but because of our history of failure I'm too scared to rock the boat.

After writing that I read the post again from the link. I think what I need to do is give it 10 days like they say and then re-assess. If there is no progress then we change tactic. That way it's not just an endless process. What do you reckon?  Thank you, again, for helping me along this journey! It really helps to not do this alone :) and sorry for my backwards and forwards continually!

Offline Melian Gray

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2018, 08:46:11 am »
And happy 10 year anniversary for last week!!  :D Amazing milestone - congratulations!

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2018, 18:58:51 pm »
DS just had his first proper sickness,
Sorry to hear that :(

I know there has been some thought over whether or not you are feeding to sleep, and it seems you are not.  Do you feel what you are doing now is an issue? Is it causing you problems?  For instance do you need someone else to be able to settle him down for nap or night and feel unable to do this because of the feeding part of the wind down? Or is it more that you feel you "should not" be feeding to sleep/drowsy and want to change it because the book says so?
If it is causing you significant problem then perhaps we need to tackle it in a different or more focused way.  If it isn't really causing significant problem for you then maybe just leave it as it is?  There are benefits to BF so if it doesn't effect his sleep pattern does it really matter??
All LOs get "hooked" on something for wind down. Mine had the same song that I sang to him at every nap and night for about 2 years.  Only eventually did we do a different song and over time shifted to a CD rather than my singing so although mine fell asleep alone he did have his wind down that helped him relax and get ready for sleep.

This is quite a slow approach, which is great, but I can just see it taking months to train him
Months is too long IMO.  Sleep training or changing habits doesn't take this long. If you know your goal (and perhaps your reason, as in above - does it need to change?) then you keep on moving on the training.  Habits can change in a matter of days or if going slower a couple of weeks.  Any slower than that and you are not moving forward.

Thank you, again, for helping me along this journey!
You're very welcome.
So have a think about if it's a problem or if it isn't so we can work out properly what your goal is and why, often us parents need to have a clear understanding of why we want something to change so that we can make the required moves..or so we can accept things how they are and be at peace with it instead of feeling guilt.


And happy 10 year anniversary for last week!!  :D Amazing milestone - congratulations!
Thank you very much :) I got a huge bouquet of flowers and a massive box of chocs...the flowers have lasted well, the chocs were demolished immediately lol  My DS made a gorgeous card for mummy and daddy with drawings of the three of us. It was very very sweet.


Offline Melian Gray

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2018, 10:35:34 am »
Amazing. You are just amazing!

I know there has been some thought over whether or not you are feeding to sleep, and it seems you are not.  Do you feel what you are doing now is an issue? Is it causing you problems?  For instance do you need someone else to be able to settle him down for nap or night and feel unable to do this because of the feeding part of the wind down? Or is it more that you feel you "should not" be feeding to sleep/drowsy and want to change it because the book says so?
I do feel it is an issue. I even had a dream that my aunt who moved to China came and told me that I cannot feed DS to sleep (or before sleep at any rate). I would very much like to be able to have someone else put him to sleep, for multiple reasons. One being so that I can hire a babysitter and perhaps go to one of the weddings we get invited to instead of sending DH on his own. And yes, there is definitely an aspect of 'because the book says so', but that's cause what the book says makes a lot of sense, where I can't see the happy ending for my current path, only delayed problems. It really is an issue for me. Even though putting DS down has never been easier. I also feel that 'fixing' this sooner will be easier than fixing it later, which is another huge motivator.

Having said all that, if DS needs more time practicing being happy before falling asleep (if that's even a thing) then I'm happy to continue for a specified length of time. I obviously want what's best for DS in the long run. I just don't believe that having feeding as a prop is best for him.

Months is too long IMO.  Sleep training or changing habits doesn't take this long. If you know your goal (and perhaps your reason, as in above - does it need to change?) then you keep on moving on the training.  Habits can change in a matter of days or if going slower a couple of weeks.  Any slower than that and you are not moving forward.
That's exactly how I feel. DS has just managed to transition to one nap, which is big, but I don't feel I've made any progress with going to sleep independently in the past few weeks.

My honest (and possibly unrealistic) goal is to be able to go into his room, close the curtains, say my key phrase, put him down, walk out and then have him fall asleep in peace. So basically to have an independent sleeper. He's almost a year old; I would never have believed you if you'd told me a few months ago that I'd still be struggling so much with DS's sleep now. Not after following Tracy's stuff.

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2018, 19:47:23 pm »
OK, so as you really want to stop the feeding as part of the wind down how about you make sure the proper feed is on wake up (or at least during wide awake A time) rather than close to the nap time and then you know he is properly fed.  Then at nap time do a relatively rapid gradual withdrawal of the comfort sucking.  Give yourself a number of steps to follow which you think are both realistic and keep you moving forward, base them on the gentle removal plan but adapt it to your situation so for example begin your wind down using cuddles, holding, key phrase, a song etc and then lay him down. If he is unhappy with this then comfort feed for a short (and shorter) time each day. I think the gentle removal there is a method of counting to give yourself something to do and also so you know you are reducing. Have a look at that. In your planned steps remember that it can take 20 mins for sleep so your goal of "shut curtains, key phrase, put down, walk out" might be a little short. I would write down your plan so that you are clear on it.
Initially you might need to go back in several times or pick up several times to resettle. Remember that sleep training isn't necessarily always about what he wants - the BW methods involve crying but you never leave your LO so the cortisol levels are very low, Pantley's no-cry method is supposed to be possible without crying but personally I feel you might get a bit "stuck" in one place (where you are) if you expect no crying or fussing at all.
You need to be going fast enough with your movement forward to see some results within a few days even if you have not reached the end goal in that time.

Not sure if I have asked about a lovey?  Does he have one?  Have you tried to introduce one or does he seem to have a preference for an item to give comfort?  I love lovies, they give LO a real comfort boost.

Also, if you really want someone else to be able to put him down it might help to get someone else involved. Many  mums get dad involved to drop a F2S prop as LO knows Daddy doesn't have the boobs.  Could be something to think about?


Offline Melian Gray

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2018, 14:20:23 pm »
Thank you, this is great, practical advice! I've just been dealing with LO still being sick, hence the delay...

Some questions to start, seeing as he is only on one nap would I do the same for BT and nap? Some places I've read suggest just starting with BT.
OK, so as you really want to stop the feeding as part of the wind down how about you make sure the proper feed is on wake up (or at least during wide awake A time) rather than close to the nap time and then you know he is properly fed. 
His nap is just after lunch (lunch 10.45 - 11.15, nap 12 ish). I would think that he's not hungry before his nap then, but he still takes a full feed before going down, perhaps out of habit/because he leaves some space for the feed at lunch. I'll try to make sure he gets a good lunch, perhaps a bit closer to his nap.

I love what you've said - I'm going to give it a go as soon as DS is reasonably better and can breathe normally.

Not sure if I have asked about a lovey?  Does he have one?  Have you tried to introduce one or does he seem to have a preference for an item to give comfort?  I love lovies, they give LO a real comfort boost.
Yes!! I have been trying and trying to get him to take a lovey because it would make such a difference! He has a soft toy and a little taglet blanket, but he usually just 'throws' them away from him whenever I give them to him. I've tried to have the blanket with us while he's feeding as he's come closer to taking the blanket than the bunny, but he still doesn't take it. I would LOVE for him to take a lovey....
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 14:22:04 pm by Melian Gray »

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2018, 19:08:45 pm »
His nap is just after lunch (lunch 10.45 - 11.15, nap 12 ish). I would think that he's not hungry before his nap then, but he still takes a full feed
Could you offer the BF directly after the solids lunch? He takes a full feed downstairs in his A time right after lunch and then when you go up for nap time you do comfort feeding with the reduction?  Initially he might not take a great deal after the meal and want more at the nap time but the idea is to offer and while you reduce the comfort feed he "should" (FX) increase what he takes after the meal instead.  You never know he might surprise you and take a great feed after the meal and not be all that bothered at nap/BT.
Lots of people do a milk feed directly after solids, Tracy put it in her weaning plan to finish the meal off with either water, milk or BF.  There are so many benefits to BF that if you are happy to continue with those after solids feeds then it can only be a good thing really.  At 12 months if you didn't want to BF after solids you could offer cows milk (if there is no allergy, I'm assuming not) in a sippy cup instead as toddlers and children still need milk (or a good substitute).

With the lovie - he might not like the texture or shape of the things you are offering. I think at this age it's usually expected they choose their own but you could still try. How about trying a muslin square (do you have those?).  You can wear it inside your top for a few days to get your scent on it, some people find this helpful.  My DS loves the wash label on his muslin squares, so much so that he has worn them out through years of rubbing and I had to buy silky feeling ribbon to replace the labels :)  What I love about the muslins is we have heaps of them so there is never a worry about wash day or losing one, they are so easy to replace.


Offline Melian Gray

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2018, 10:44:31 am »
Could you offer the BF directly after the solids lunch? He takes a full feed downstairs in his A time right after lunch and then when you go up for nap time you do comfort feeding with the reduction?
... 
At 12 months if you didn't want to BF after solids you could offer cows milk (if there is no allergy, I'm assuming not) in a sippy cup instead as toddlers and children still need milk (or a good substitute).
That is such a great idea! I will start this immediately!! I'm hoping he will surprise me, that would be lovely! And this is a fantastic way to wean him finally if I choose to go that route in the near future. Thank you!

I have just tried to put him down now without feeding, then when he wouldn't stop crying I fed him in a separate room and then took him into his own room and tried to put him down but he would not settle/stop crying. So I fed him again, but he couldn't feed properly as his nose was now blocked from crying (he's still recovering from being sick). I noticed he was trying to self soothe with his fingers so I put him in his crib and he settled after a few minutes and went to sleep. I take this as progress! Sort of ;) I will try a BF straight after supper tonight and see if I can make more progress with BT.

With the lovey, I have a lovely soft bamboo Muslin which lives in his crib too. He has maybe once or twice sucked on it, but not recently. I'll try to keep it on me to get my scent on it and then try again. He has started stroking his sheet when I put him down though, strangely enough. Not sure his sheet counts as a lovey, though!
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 10:46:38 am by Melian Gray »

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2018, 18:58:41 pm »
He has started stroking his sheet when I put him down though, strangely enough. Not sure his sheet counts as a lovey, though!
This sounds good.
I wonder if you have something the same fabric as the sheet which you can make into a square lovey?  He might prefer the smoother texture rather than the muslin crinkly texture.
With my DS, he attached to the muslin very early on but I used it *all* the time. every time I picked him up there was a muslin, every feed, every cry, when he was bigger every bump and fall...I always comforted but always had the lovey there. The power of the soothing seems to increase the more you use it whenever you are giving attention and nurturing.

It sounds like you did make progress with the F2S. Perhaps try to aim for him to stay calm with the comfort feeding just prior to putting down so that he doesn't get so worked up and full of snot. Although you made progress I think putting down with no feeding was perhaps a bit too quick for him.
Hope this evening goes well for you.


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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2018, 20:53:20 pm »
Ok great, I'll have a look for something of the same texture as our sheet and try it. Our bamboo Muslin is incredibly soft, but it was too expensive for me to cut up! I tried to use the taglet blanket consistently from very early on, but as you say he might not have liked the texture.

It sounds like you did make progress with the F2S. Perhaps try to aim for him to stay calm with the comfort feeding just prior to putting down so that he doesn't get so worked up and full of snot.
Will try this now for his nap. He didn't take much of a feed after lunch, but I'm hoping that's cos of how much he ate :)
Last night was ok. It took a bit of backwards and forwards and he did end up basically becoming super drowsy while feeding, but it felt like progress to me.

Didn't manage to post this earlier so just adding in here... His nap wasn't great at all. I managed to keep him fairly calm falling asleep after a bit if backwards and forwards with feeding and putting in his bed. But then after 40min he woke up screaming. Couldn't have been pain as I'd given him pain meds before his nap. I eventually got him to settle and ended up only sleeping for another 5min though. Not sure what went wrong or if it was even related to this 'training'. He has been napping for 2h15 regularly recently, so did an early BT. This time only had to do backwards and forwards 3 times until he settled. He's woken twice now already, but only expecting to see him around 5am tomorrow morning (he wakes habitually at 5 - will tackle this again once I've made progress with going to sleep). So I suppose an average second day!

For my 'plan', this is unchartered territory for me, I'm not sure what the steps might look like/how he will respond and how long it will take, but I'm going to take it in 3 day increments I think and try to push him on a bit if I feel like he isn't making progress over those 3 days. My starting point is what you've suggested above, still comfort feeding, instead of going straight to no feed.
I'd like to see him having a significantly shorter feed by 3 days, and I'd like him to go down without any feed by day 9 perhaps? I'm then vaguely expecting some regression and hopefully everything will be settled (more or less) by day 15. Do you think this sounds reasonable? Any suggestions or ideas for other milestones that I could aim, for example at day 6?
Thank you again for all of your help, I'm sorry this is taking so long...!

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2018, 09:42:21 am »
I'm sorry this is taking so long...!
No need to be sorry.  I've had lots of support on the forums over the years and I like to "pay it forward" with support anywhere I can.

Your plan sounds good.  The main thing really is to keep yourself focused, keep him calm but keep moving forwards.
Use your key phrase and your hand to help comfort him as these are replacing the comfort he gets from feeding, so he needs the feeding just now but he needs the replacement already there so that he can get used to it.

The 40 min nap could have been just an odd one-off.  Had he gone to sleep a bit earlier that day perhaps?

Lovey - could you cut up an old shirt perhaps?  I'm thinking smooth cotton.  Or the cuff of a man's shirt as that part is stiffer and perhaps he likes the smooth flatness? (remove button of course and make sure there is no fraying he can suck on).


Offline Melian Gray

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2018, 06:50:33 am »
Hello again!

OK, so I made some progress, although it was quite a bit slower than I had hoped as I was trying to minimise crying, then I started to lose focus and DS got gastro - there's a nasty bug going round! Luckily my worst symptom was nausea for a few days. Suffice to say not nearly enough progress was made :( I'm going to start again and try to be as focused as possible so I don't lose track again. I'm generally a very focused person, but I'm struggling with this a lot ! I am going to tweak the plan a little and allow a bit more crying to move things along. I'm starting to think that the pupd approach might work better for me as there are no half measures, but I am going to give this approach another, fair go. I find myself wishing that CIO wasn't such a bad option though, so I think my patience is starting to wear a little thin. My expectations with sleep on the BW method don't quite match the journey that I have had with my DS :/

Just wanted to give an update, albeit not a very good one! Thank you again for walking through this process with me, I am in a better place for your help!!

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2018, 08:10:17 am »
Sorry to you've both been ill :(

You sound like you're at the end of your patience. How about we review what's happening and what you want to happen?
He's on 1 nap daily, yes?  Can you post a recent EASY with the times and how you got him to sleep and if there was a struggle, how long he slept, what you did etc. For BT too and any NWs?

With the BF and F2S.  What is your goal now?  I see he is almost at his birthday!!!!  Did you plan to continue BF beyond 12 months or did you plan to stop BF altogether?

I think if you are even contemplating CIO then a stricter approach may be more beneficial for you, personally. So if we set out where you are at and what you want then perhaps I can help with your plan?

You know CIO is not the answer, days and days of screaming are not going to help your patience any and LO will lose trust in you - the trust and bond you put in now makes for healthy brain development and emotional security. This ground work doesn't *just* mean he develops as he should but also effects how he behaves and how you respond throughout his toddlerhood, childhood and adulthood.

hugs.


Offline Melian Gray

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2018, 21:29:44 pm »
Yes, he is on 1 nap and even if that nap isn't great he makes to BT without being too OT and then makes it up overnight. This makes me more confident that I can go ahead with training as before I was terrified he'd become too OT.

Typical EASY which I achieved remarkably often:
6.30 WU BF
7.30 Breakfast
10.45 Lunch
12.00 - 2.00 or 2.15 nap
5.30 supper
6.45 bath
7.30 BT
Usually one NW in early eve, maybe 8.30pm, then one NW around 5.30am.

For going to sleep: I have been following your advice and giving him milk after his meal (have been giving in a bottle - I bought a bottle!) usually only about 60ml. Then around 11.45 take him into his room, change nappy, close curtains, feed. I try to keep the feed as short as possible without cutting him off midfeed. If he cries I try to still put him down, sometimes he settles within seconds, otherwise I feed him again for as short as possible, maybe 20 seconds, then shorter and shorter til it's no longer worth his while. I never made it to day 9, putting him down without feeding. Generally BT is easier than nap as his bath gets him ready for bed. With him being sick recently I've fed him for a bit longer at both nap and BT and there has been no struggle. Today I was quite strict and he took about 40min to settle (only did 3 short feeds).

If he wakes during his nap I feed him back to sleep. If he wakes up shortly after BT (up to 10pm) then I BF. If he wakes between 10 and 2am I try to not BF, but if he doesn't stop crying or settle after a few minutes then I either medicate and BF if I think there's something wrong, or just BF. If he wakes after 4am I BF. He doesn't usually wake between 2 and 4am.

With the BF and F2S.  What is your goal now?  I see he is almost at his birthday!!!!  Did you plan to continue BF beyond 12 months or did you plan to stop BF altogether?
My goal is to not feed at all before the nap and just have the post lunch bottle. At BT I'd like to feed (or eventually just bottle), then maybe have a story then to bed.
I had always assumed that he would wean himself before now, so hadn't expected to have to wean him. I think I'll start weaning him when he's 13mo thereabouts, sooner if it will help with training, but he still feeds a lot so think it will take a while to wean completely.

With CIO, I have never liked it or bought into it, but I keep hearing stories of it working with friends, so wish I could use it consequence free! But I'm not comfortable doing it myself.

I think if you are even contemplating CIO then a stricter approach may be more beneficial for you, personally. So if we set out where you are at and what you want then perhaps I can help with your plan?
Yes please! :)

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Re: 10m still struggling with naps!
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2018, 11:17:33 am »
Are you using formula or expressed breast milk in the bottles? Or did you switch to cows milk in the bottle as he is so close to 1yo?
Just wondering now if switching to bottle at the nap and BT feeds might make you feel like you are making more progress? Although you say you'd like to wean BF at 13 months. Just trying to get a picture of what you want to happen.
It's perfectly possible now, at 12 months, to stop BF and stop milk feeds (bottle or breast) at nap and BT and keep milk totally separate from sleep.  LO does still need some milk (usually twice per day), this can be breast, formula or cows milk and can be given in a bottle, sippy cup, straw cup or open cup (it is advised to drop bottles at 12 months - just as you bought one! But it is helping you just now so it wasn't a waste :) )
It's also perfectly possible to stop feeding mid nap and through the night.

I notice in your recent EASY that there are no solids snacks. When you started this thread your LO was 10 months and at that age I wouldn't always expect to see snacks included, but now he is almost 1yo, a "normal" or common routine would be
WU milk
breakfast
mid morning snack
lunch
mid afternoon snack
dinner
(when weaning the BT milk at 12 months I put in a supper snack with milk in a cup here)
BT milk

I think if you were to introduce a snack time mid-morning, keep a milk drink after lunch solids, and are prepared for some resistance (him crying) you can go ahead and stop the pre-nap BF.  You would stay with him throughout the process (no crying alone) picking up if needed and continuing to sooth in the cot until he is either calm or asleep.  You can either just go for it (and he will adjust over the next few days) or you can wait a few days whilst you get that snack introduced and either bottle or breast at nap time, reducing just as you have been doing and then stop.

I would probably keep the BT milk feed for now and tackle it a little later.  But you could switch to a bottle at BT instead of the BF if you wanted.
Even with keeping the BT milk you can introduce a supper (snack size or however much he wants to eat plus milk in cup or bottle) just prior to his BT routine bath etc and this will help to fill him up ready for the night.
Night feeds are not needed after 1yo (although people who choose to continue to BF may choose to keep night feeds for longer) so you can drop these and give comfort or water to help your LO settle back to sleep.

I think you are ready to make some changes so I'd just go ahead and make them. He is sleeping pretty well and he is old enough to get his nutrients from mainly solids, milk at this age is now a drink and part of a balanced diet, he needs the dairy for fats and nutrition but no longer for hunger.

I keep hearing stories of it working with friends
We often don't hear the full picture from friends. And even if you do, you don't know the knock on effect of their parenting methods down the line.
I k now you want changes so it's time to do it, just not the CIO way.

You can do this. Stay calm, stay supportive, do one thing at a time but be focused on your goal and feel confident that your LO is going to be okay with fewer (or no) BF. It is not the same as when he was struggling on two naps - you have a pretty good routine. Your just ready to cut those feeds for your own sanity I think.

OK?