4 month sleep regression

[Gabiascher]

Hi, my LO is 16 weeks. I think he has started the 4 month sleep regression. He catnaps all day and i am having a real hard time feeding him throught the day.
I try in a very dsrk room but he still barely wants to eat. I try every 2.5 hours to feed him so he eats a little bit but its not enough because before bedtime he eats for about an hour on both breasts at around 7. Then 10-1130 pm again which is new. Then 1 and 430-6 wont stop! And then hes awake and cant get him back to sleep just talks to himslef for hours.
How do i get him to eat more during the day so he doesnt eat at night instead? Is that possible during this regression. I feel like its also very hard for him to sleep so full.
Please help!

[Gabiascher]

On top of that, he does know how to put himself back to sleep if  just put my hand on him and say sshhhh ... But not if hes crying.

I also dont really understand anymore what time he is supposed to wake up . After eating from 430-6. Is 6 the awake time becasue then hes not hungry at this time or should i get him back to sleep somehow and then wke him up at 7/8 for morning feed?! Im confused ! Sometimes hell fall asleep at 7 and sometimes 730/8. When hes that full his reflux is bad and the milk keeps coming up and it takes him a while to fall asleep each time.

I want him to atleast have a full morning feed...

[becj86]

Hi welcome to BW

before bedtime he eats for about an hour on both breasts at around 7. Then 10-1130 pm again which is new. Then 1 and 430-6

Some of this is pretty normal - long BT feed can be explained by your supply naturally being lowest at that time of day, 3 night feeds is pretty normal at this age, additional feeds do crop up here and there after they've been gone a while. That's usually due to a growth spurt and often will go again of its own accord.

Really long feed from 4:30-6 is a little unusual though could be related to growth spurt also - I suspect his reflux might be part of the picture here. I'd probably just feed for the duration of a usual feed and stick him back in bed and see if he'll go back to sleep.

Can you post your EAS? It sounds like he may need some more A time - both the many catnaps and the happy long waking in the early morning suggest that.

[creations]

Hello and welcome

My DS had silent reflux and he would eat very little in the day but would take 2 or even 3 times the amount in one go at BT and again at the DF time (which he had as a NF as he started to habitually wake at 10pm for it).  Many refluxers find it easier to feed at night so they catch up on the calories then.
The other thing is it could be a growth spurt which will mean a lot more being taken but it will be temporary (a few days or a week).

What happens in the day if you don't try to feed him so frequently?  Would he show hunger signs at say 3hrs or a little more perhaps?

I would treat the 4.30 - 6am feed as a NW/NF and get him back to sleep so you can start the day fresh at a suitable time but it sounds like he is treating 4.30am as his morning WU time and spending a couple of hours awake before going for a nap. Could you post your EASY times for us to look at?

posted the same time as bec - we've said pretty much the same thing which you might find reassuring.

[Gabiascher]

Actually during the day i dont feel like i am able to have an easy schedule.

The only thing that usially doesnt change is his wake up time which is 630.

I used to put him to bed after feed at 630 which was great. But since his naps all of a sudden changed i dont know how to get him back on track.

At the beginning he fed every 2.5 hours. Then it changed to 3 hours. Now he can go 3.5-4 hours. The problem is that because his daytime naps are 30-45 minutes he gets hungry usually before he goes to sleep.  Sometimes all pf a sudden it can be can be 2-3 hours(i dont let him sleep 3 because it really messes with the night)

His awake time used to be 45min-75 min. Now his awake time really changes between an hour 20min- 2 hours and im not sure if hes fighting me because he is undertired or overtired. Really not able to understand his cues anymore. The second i take him in to his room he starts crying even if its just to calm him for 15 min before nap.  :/
Im confused!

Last night he ate so much in evening it was hard for him to fall asleep. Then he woke up at 12 for a feed. And then at 430 and back up at 630 for wake up( doesnt eat alot when wakes up). But between the feeds there was crying because of gas which alot of the times triggers his  reflux too...probably of the large feed at BT

Mayeb you can help me with the daytime feeding and naps and the night will get easier.

[becj86]

Ok, so we know he *can* sleep a long nap if he's appropriately tired (based on the 2-3hr naps he pulls at times). I think at this point, you should probably try a more set A time of 2hr for a few days and see how you go. Watching cues can get quite unreliable as LO's A times increase because they start to use their tired cues for boredom too. At 1:20, he's almost certainly fighting naps because he's UT - 2hr is average at 4 months, 1.5hr is average at 3 months.

Wind down is probably a poor description of what I interpret it to be - generally its just us giving LO cues that its time to sleep unless they're really wound up from a very stimulating activity (eg. lots of people around, lots of noise or something). WD can be as simple as walking into bedroom, lying in bed and saying a sleepy phrase, followed by shush/pat. It doesn't need to be 15mins, in fact I'd argue that 15mins will yield you a fighting kiddo almost every time because they know from the beginning of the WD that its sleep time and they're not yet tired.

Following the EAS order makes things a bit easier WRT feeds. Just feed when he wakes, even if its only been 2.5hr since the last feed. Its about creating predictability for LO and avoiding feed to sleep associations.

WRT gas - find a burping technique that works well for you. If you're still having gas at this age, might be worth looking into biologicalnurturing.com video of laidback feeding and considering oversupply/overactive letdown or a combination thereof as a culprit.

Can expand on that if you so desire, must be off to swimming with school now

[Gabiascher]

Thank you so much! Very helpful!

I do feed when he wakes up but he still sometime isnt very hungry and then gets hungry later on. Isnt that snacking?

[becj86]

I do feed when he wakes up but he still sometime isnt very hungry and then gets hungry later on. Isnt that snacking?

It can be. When you say later on... do you mean just before nap time? My DS' sleep cues were all around looking for food and I fed him for a while and we had horrendous gas issues. When I worked it out and put him to bed, nap issues and gas issues were much improved.

Another option to reduce your doubt re: hunger is to feed on wakeup and offer a topup 45min after the main feed. You can then know he's taken a good amount and shouldn't be hungry at nap time. You can then move that topup closer to the main feed until they're one if he is able to cope with that. Many reflux babies need smaller more frequent feeds.

[Gabiascher]

Okay! Thanks!

Now im having trouble woth night wakings and babbling in bed. Its either at 12 am or 430 am. And he doesnt go back to sleep just babbles and coos in bed until so tired cant go back to sleep /hungry. That means awake for atleast 2-2.15 hours!
I dont know if it has to do with the regression but its annoying. Its hard to ignore. the noise is annoying so i cant go back to sleep and when he wakes at 4/430 that means that his first nap is at around 6/630 instead of wake up (he goes to sleep between 6-7).
He seems happy overall. But i am not haha.
Ive tried everything. Acticity during the day longer shorter trying to put back to sleep in every way  feed.. rock...   And so on.
How many hours during the day is he supposed to nap?! He naps 3 times a day where his naps all together are around 3-3.5 hours. And never more than that.
His A time is between 145-215 hours. Depends on amount of activity.
Since the last time he has been eating every 3.5 4 hours which works , but
Because of these night wakings the feeding is so off especially the morning feed which im not sure is the morning feed because of the early waking.

Need some help

[becj86]

And he doesnt go back to sleep just babbles and coos in bed until so tired cant go back to sleep /hungry. That means awake for atleast 2-2.15 hours!

This is classically because LO is not getting enough A time during the day, often the first A time but sometimes all of them.

Can you please post a day or two in EAS format, as they happen, not what you're aiming for.

Remind me, he's about 19 weeks now? If so, his A time could be as much as 2:30, so 1:45 is almost certain to yield an UT nap of ~45min-1hr. 2:15 may be doing the same unless its towards the end of the day.

when he wakes at 4/430 that means that his first nap is at around 6/630 instead of wake up

What's he doing in this time? Are you getting him up at 4am? Is he lying in bed cooing for 2hr? If so, count A time from when you get him up, not when he starts cooing and that may help.

[Gabiascher]

So for example today until now...
Yes he is 19 weeks. 20 on weekend.

So maybe my A time is too short ... How does it change so fast ? So in 3 weeks about 15-30 min extra A time?

WU i think he woke up at 630/645 but heard him at 7
E 7 (doesn't want to eat that much
A710
730 try to eat more again
A 745
E 830 now wants to eat full meal
S because of 830 falls asleep on me straight after feeding 9-1030
A 1030
E 1130
S 1240-13:25 woke up from bowel movements couldnt fall back asleep after changing dirty diaper
A till 15
E 15-1530
S 1530 fell asleep on me because of feeding
E+A 1730 woke him up , feed
 tummy time to get gas out bath feed cuddles singing massage tummy
BT awake in bed at 1920

The thing is that he wants to eat a full meal too close to the morning hours and he will only eqt full feedings every 4 hours. So if he ate at 430 a good feeding he wont eat in the morn plus that feeding makes  his diaper dirty and then i change it and it totally wakes him up. is there anyway i can change the hour of the early feeding somehow make it earlier? I know he is able to not have it if he sleeps on me because it has happened many times before by accident.

You also mentioned not having a first A time long enough but he gets so tired because of the wake up. Usually when he babbles i try o feed him and get him back to sleep and nothing works. If i do feed he of course gets his diaper dirty and if he doesnt eat he babbles till hes really hungry .

[becj86]

So in 3 weeks about 15-30 min extra A time?

Sure, there's an average of approx. 15min increase every 2 weeks from 3 months to 6 months.

is there anyway i can change the hour of the early feeding somehow make it earlier?

If you do a dreamfeed, you can try dropping that which should bring the NF earlier.

You also mentioned not having a first A time long enough but he gets so tired because of the wake up. Usually when he babbles i try o feed him and get him back to sleep and nothing works.

If you push that first A time consistently for 3-4 days, this will almost certainly go away. I can't think of a time I've not seen it work in 6.5 years on BW.