5.5 mo old, ready to drop the cat nap?

[hotmessexpress]

Hi! I'm new here but I've been reading for a while just have never posted. We have been doing EASY since my LO was born and she's been doing great! Nap transitions are always rough for us though, I have a hard time figuring out if she's OT/UT. The last week she's really been all over the place and is starting to wake very early.

Our schedule that we've been following is
WU 7a
E 7a
A 730a-9a
S 9a-11a
E 11A
A 1130a-1p
S 1p-3p
E 3p
A 330p-5p
S 5p-530/540p
Bath time 550-615p
E 615p/630p
S 645p/7p

Lately this schedule has been HARD to follow. She's waking as early at 6a. I usually leave her in bed until 7a no matter what. She doesn't cry, she just lays there and coos. But this early wake is throwing off all the naps and she's exhausted by 815 and can't make it to nap time at 9 so the whole day gets moved up. I force her to take the cat nap by swaddling, holding, rocking, and binky but she's really always been this way. Just with the CN though, the other naps she goes to sleep on her own and only one arm in swaddle right now. Today she woke at 615 and went down for first nap at 830a-1030a, then down for second nap 1230p-320p (cried on an off for about 45 minutes in the middle of the nap, never cried for longer than a few minutes and would doze off again but kept doing this). Now she is up and very energetic and hyper.

HELP!? Are we ready to drop the CN? How do I go about doing it since she can't stay up from the end of the second nap to bed time? Does she need more awake time? It's just such a vicious cycle if she can't make it to 7a bc I don't get her up till them. Should I get her up and go with the flow the rest of the day? I'm a first time mama so I'm really at a loss of how to go about doing this without getting into her being very OT.

[becj86]

Hi You're absolutely ready to move towards dropping the CN! Your routine is picture perfect for a 4 month old... your baby isn't 4 months old any more. You sound like you're doing a great job and just need a little reassurance and guidance, which we can provide.

She's waking as early at 6a. I usually leave her in bed until 7a no matter what. She doesn't cry, she just lays there and coos. But this early wake is throwing off all the naps and she's exhausted by 815 and can't make it to nap time at 9 so the whole day gets moved up

She's trying really hard to make those A times longer! What's her nap like then? How long? Any wakings?

Should I get her up and go with the flow the rest of the day?

Yes, this will make things easier for everyone. There's nothing that says 7am is the magic time when all babies should wake. If it fits in with your family's life to get up at 6:30 when she wakes, do that.

I'm a first time mama so I'm really at a loss of how to go about doing this without getting into her being very OT.

Totally understand you being worried about OT. UT naps can produce OT though, so you've got to keep those A times increasing as your LO grows so they stay appropriate because a little OT for one nap is a very different thing from chronic OT from lots of UT naps. Both can be fixed with child-appropriate routines and time, babies are very difficult to break.

The basic facts as I see them are:
- Your routine currently has 2hr A times and your baby is very used to those.
- Your baby seems quite adaptable (most babies will scream and play up way before now if their routine is not right for them).
- Average A time at this age is 2:30-2:45

I therefore see a couple of options:
- Fix the routine in one big jump of 45mins A time which will result in some OT nap wakings that you can probably resettle and all should be sorted in a week or so. This option does have some OT involved and you have to stick with it or your days can get very messy very quickly.
- Increase A time by 15mins every 3-4 days and you should be just about caught up to where she needs to be in 3-4 weeks. This option runs the risk of being very complex with OT/UT loops establishing and patterns not being reliable to tweak routine.
- Somewhere in the middle of the road is to do one big jump of 30mins in A time, then increase by 15mins after 4-7 days if necessary. This runs both risks stated above, depending upon the child but I suspect might work nicely for your LO as I have a feeling she may be on the lower end of average A times given her age and current routine.

I think nap transitions may be tricky for you because they've been a bit late and done when things are already a bit wonky. Would I be right in thinking that? Its much easier if you increase A time gradually than in big jumps... If you look at average A times going from 1.5hr at 3 months to 2:45-3hr at 6 months, that's about 15mins increase per fortnight.

Hugs, lovely xx We can get this sorted together

[hotmessexpress]

Thank you @becj86 for your response!

She's trying really hard to make those A times longer! What's her nap like then? How long? Any wakings?

She naps about 1.5 hours at that nap. Some days she will easily transition at 45 min, other days she will wake and coo for 5-10 minutes before going back to sleep. Usually depends on when she wakes in the morning.

- Somewhere in the middle of the road is to do one big jump of 30mins in A time, then increase by 15mins after 4-7 days if necessary. This runs both risks stated above, depending upon the child but I suspect might work nicely for your LO as I have a feeling she may be on the lower end of average A times given her age and current routine.

I think I'll go with this one since it is the easier option. She has a pretty high sleep need from what I can tell so I think even 2 hr 30 min is pushing it but I think she can definitely make it but will take a few days adjusting.

I think nap transitions may be tricky for you because they've been a bit late and done when things are already a bit wonky. Would I be right in thinking that?

YES! I feel like I get the schedule PERFECT to where she's sleeping at exactly the right times and is so happy when she's awake that I think I just stick to it for too long. Then things start to get wonky and then she'll have one day where the schedule works perfectly again so then I feel like she isn't ready for a transition. Then after a day of a perfect schedule, she'll start showing signs of tiredness after only 1.5 hours so then I go back to wondering if she's more tired and I need to put her down earlier? This happened with her 4-->3 transition also until finally I just kept her up two hours and it fixed everything.

Tomorrow I'll get her up and do 2.5 hours awake time. What should I do about the CN for now? Should I try dropping it? What is the longest she should be up from the end of the second nap to bed time? Someone told me 4 hours but no way can she make it that long without crashing at bed time.

Thank you for your help!!! It's so nice to have people to ask for advice!

[becj86]

Someone told me 4 hours but no way can she make it that long without crashing at bed time.

Oh goodness me, no!

With 2.5hr A time, you're still looking at keeping the CN, just either the naps get shorter or the day longer or a bit of both, by which I mean it will likely be something between these two:
7 - WU, feed
9:30 - nap
11 - wake, feed
1:30 - nap
3 - wake, feed
5:30 - 30min CN
7:30 - asleep in bed

and

7 - wake, feed
9:30 - nap
11:30 - wake, feed
2 - nap
4 - wake, feed
6/6:30 - 30min CN
8/8:30 - asleep for the night

She has a pretty high sleep need from what I can tell so I think even 2 hr 30 min is pushing it but I think she can definitely make it but will take a few days adjusting.

Yes, 2.5hr really is the low end at this age, if I didn't think she was HSN, I would be pushing the jump to 2:45 A time more. Be ready to resettle an OT waking at 30mins into naps and I think you'll have this bedded in within 3 days or so if you're consistent with it.

[hotmessexpress]

Yes, 2.5hr really is the low end at this age, if I didn't think she was HSN, I would be pushing the jump to 2:45 A time more. Be ready to resettle an OT waking at 30mins into naps and I think you'll have this bedded in within 3 days or so if you're consistent with it.

She woke at 615a but she went back to sleep while I was in the shower so I left her until she woke again at 650. I kept her up until 920a and boy, was she cranky!! She usually will play independently or sit in her stroller fine but she just cried and wanted to be held until I put her down for a nap. She was falling asleep as I put her in the crib! It's 1129a and she's still sleeping! No wakes at all. I'm going to go and get her up since she's been asleep for 2 hours 10 min already.

Is it ever OK to just let her sleep as long as she wants? Or will that ruin the afternoon nap/night sleep? When will we actually drop the CN?

[hotmessexpress]

She's done great today! It's honestly crazy!!

I put her down at 2 and it's 4 and she's still asleep. I'm going to wake her up now.

Since she can make it 2.5 hours can I just put her straight to bed at 6:30 or is that too early and that's why I need to do the CN?

[becj86]

Since she can make it 2.5 hours can I just put her straight to bed at 6:30 or is that too early and that's why I need to do the CN?

Sure you can

Might be the easiest CN drop ever!! Maybe don't count your chickens just yet but since she takes long naps, you can probably do that fine.

I generally advise against waking from naps because its not particularly nice to be woken from sleep before you're ready but my caveat is that if LO is sleeping more than 2hr, really its best to creep in and just wake them as they rouse at ~2:15 which is around about the next sleep cycle transition or just wake at 2:15 nap time.

Well done you and DD

[hotmessexpress]

Well I definitely got ahead of myself I think!

Last night around 555p she started rubbing eyes and getting cranky so I took her to try to put her down for a cat nap. This was a failure and I gave up after 40 minutes. Instead of going to bed then at 635p I got up and did bed time routine and fed. She ended up going down at 8p but had skipped the cat nap all together. I was worried about putting her down too early bc of her feedining schedule. She had just eaten at 410p and I thought feedining again at 6p was too soon. She actually did fine during wind down and didn't seem that overtired and went to bed easily.

 She hasn't woken up on her own in every middle of the night since she was 6 weeks old, except twice at the 4 month regression. And we don't do a dream feed bc around 14 weeks she started waking and screaming for that so we stopped it and she slept through just fine. Well, its 347am and we had a night wake! She woke at 328 crying. I always give her at least 5 minutes to resettle on her own, in that time she stopped crying and started just fidgeting. She's back asleep now and it only took about 15 minutes. But she still woke up so obviously something is off. Could it be bc we skipped that cat nap? What should I change about tomorrow?

[hotmessexpress]

Today has not gone so well! 

She woke up at 330a and then went back to sleep but then would randomly cry out every 30-40 minutes until morning. She woke at 630 and it's been downhill all day. She's been very cranky. First nap was 1.5 hrs but she was yawning, rubbing eyes, and cranky basically immediately when she woke up and didn't stop until I put her down for the next nap 2.5 hours later. She's taking the second nap now and slept 40 minutes but has been awake in there tossing and turning for about 20 minutes. She isn't crying so I'm going to leave her and hope she goes back to sleep. 

I don't know what changed yesterday to today! This is defeating since yesterday was so great and I thought we would be moving in the right direction

[becj86]

But she still woke up so obviously something is off.

Not necessarily - we all wake and babies just have les experience in getting back to sleep but she did it, so I don't think that's too much of an issue.

What should I change about tomorrow?

Nothing. The key to making this change is being consistent. If you keep moving the goalposts, she will have a hard time self-regulating. If you keep consistent, she will be able to take the sleep she needs when the opportunity is given.

Remember I said there will probably be some rough days - you've done a big jump but its the low end of an age-appropriate range and she'll take a few days to get used to it. Stick with it, give her some time and she'll get there.

Hugs for feeling defeated, the big swings between hope and despair are difficult to cope with when they're all about your precious baby. It will all come out in the wash.

[hotmessexpress]

Yesterday she took 1.5 hr nap in the AM, 45 min in afternoon and 30 min CN. I put her down at 640p bc I felt she was tired and didn't get enough sleep. She slept through till 645am this morning!

Another 1.5 hr nap this AM though and now I'm worried about the afternoon nap. She really has a much better attitude when she sleeps 2 hrs, she's overall more irritable when she only gets a 1.5 hr nap. Should I maybe increase her awake time more or wait a week to do that? She managed the awake time fine this morning and didn't really get cranky. She's also working on crawling so I don't know if that affects naps at all??

I'm sticking it out! It's so hard when you work on schedules though bc the second you think you have it right, it has to be changed again! They grow too fast! lol

[becj86]

Another 1.5 hr nap this AM though and now I'm worried about the afternoon nap. She really has a much better attitude when she sleeps 2 hrs, she's overall more irritable when she only gets a 1.5 hr nap. Should I maybe increase her awake time more or wait a week to do that?

Just wait for a couple more days - she's still getting used to 2:30 A time and that could still be making her a little irritable.

Definitely developmental things such as starting to crawl can disrupt naps a bit. She may need another A increase in a few days, just see if that second nap gets any longer once she's settled into the routine. You really want to wait until you've had at least 2 days or reasonably similar A and naps to know whether to tweak. Things are still a bit different each day at the moment, so give her another few days to settle in.

I'm sticking it out! It's so hard when you work on schedules though bc the second you think you have it right, it has to be changed again!

That's why we talk about this being a routine rather than a schedule. She's not a robot working to a clock, she's a little human with changing needs, so giving her the predictability of knowing she'll eat when she wakes up, then play, then go to bed for another nap helps her to self-regulate and take the food and sleep she needs when they're offered. The A times do make it feel more like a schedule but you can use them as a guide. At some times, I used the clock and A time as a guide by deciding when to start watching for tired cues (10mins before I expected he should be going down for a nap) and when to put him down regardless of the absence of cues (generally 15min after I expected him to nap, as he wasn't the most reliable i the cue department). This way, A times increase gradually as LO needs them to.

[hotmessexpress]

We're really starting to trend in the wrong direction with her morning  wakes. She's been up since 545am today. She's lying silently in her crib, but she's still awake. It doesn't work for me to get her up that early and ideally I'd like her to sleep until closer to 7. When she wakes this early, the whole day is moved up and it seems she needs an earlier bed time and that doesn't really work well for us. She's been going to bed very early lately but I really want to shift that more towards 7/715p. How can I do that?

[becj86]

Ok, so she woke earlier today. She woke at 6:45am yesterday though, so its not really a trend, its two points of data. See how you go over the next couple of days and see where she lands. You can certainly throw in a CN to get to BT at 7/7:15 if necessary. It may not be that she'll sleep 12hr overnight now though, so you may need to shift expectations a little in terms of BT or WU...

[hotmessexpress]

She's slept until 7a or a little later from 6w-13/14w with a dream feed and from 13/14w till maybe 2 weeks ago without a dream feed. Obviously I know that it can change but she was doing it and was napping great, so I look at this as a deviation from her normal. Not that I expect all babies to do that but she has been so this is different for her.

[becj86]

Sorry, yes. It is a deviation from her previous normal. It may not happen again tomorrow I guess is what I'm saying. There are ways to shift it later too if it does become a trend. The thing to concentrate on now is sorting the timing of the routine.

Can you post perhaps the next 2 days' EAS so we can see where we are?

[hotmessexpress]

Yesterday:
WU 545, She showed signs of trying to go back to sleep and even dozed off a few times so I didn't get her until she cried out at 645a
E 650a
A very fussy, rubbing eyes, crying
S 850a-1030a
E 1045a
A less fussy but still not her normal happiness
S 1:20p-255p
E 3p
A seemed pretty happy during this time
S 530p-6p
A bath time. She normally gets tired and fussy during this time but instead she was very hyper and mostly happy, didn't cry when I put her pajamas on like she normally does. I think this might have been a second wind type hyperness.
E 655p
BT 725p, fell asleep within 7 min


Today
WU 500AM!! I heard her cry for 5 min and then she stopped, I assumed she went back to sleep but I'm not sure bc I fell asleep when she stopped crying. When I turned on the monitor video at 6am she was awake and lying there silently playing with her blanket. I didn't get her up until 645a when she cried bc again, she showed signs of going back to sleep but never did
E 650
A very fussy the whole awake time
S 845a-1020a
E 1045a
A super fussy
S 1p-130p woke up screaming which she never does anymore, tried to resettle and couldn't, gave up at 2p
E 2p
A 2p-330p basically whined the entire awake time and needed lots of distraction, wanted to be held the whole time
S 330p-4p fell asleep in 1 min with binky and swaddled but binky fell out and woke screaming, resettled and got another 15 min out of the nap. Probably a total of 20 min during this time.
A 4p-515p played/bath time
E 515p-6p
BT 6p

We're 2 weeks away from the start of daylights savings here in the US so I think I'm just going to give up figuring out what the deal is with the wake up time bc I'm going to have to readjust her in 2 weeks. I'm hoping she can make it to 6a tomorrow and then I'll get her up and do everything 1 hour earlier with a bedtime goal of 6pm so that when the time changes in 2 weeks, the 6a wake up will turn into 7a and the 6p bedtime will become 7p.

Today was hard, though. She's such a pleasant baby and never ever cries but today was full of tears and whining. I'm hoping she's better rested tomorrow because I just feel so bad that she's not getting the sleep she needs and then gets upset and cries   

[becj86]

I think this might have been a second wind type hyperness.

You are likely correct there.

1030aE 1045aA less fussy but still not her normal happiness S 1:20p

That's quite a bit more than 2.5hr - did you have trouble getting her to sleep? She still slept a good nap though.

This fussiness 4-5 days into the change is unfortunately something that happens. Lets see how she does over the next 2 days and then we can find something to change if needed.

Have we just coincided this change with her 26week wonder week? Its a doozy and LOs can be very clingy with that...

I'm hoping she can make it to 6a tomorrow and then I'll get her up and do everything 1 hour earlier with a bedtime goal of 6pm so that when the time changes in 2 weeks, the 6a wake up will turn into 7a and the 6p bedtime will become 7p.

That makes good sense.

[hotmessexpress]

That's quite a bit more than 2.5hr - did you have trouble getting her to sleep? She still slept a good nap though

Yes, she wouldn't go to sleep. Fought the nap and cried.

Have we just coincided this change with her 26week wonder week? Its a doozy and LOs can be very clingy with that...

She will be 26 weeks tomorrow so that could definitely be it... I thought the wonder week was over already but I haven't been tracking it with the app lately.

Yesterday I got her up at 6a and she didn't pretty great the whole day. Went down for bed at 605p and woke up at 555a this morning. First nap today was 1.5 hours and 2nd nap was 2 hours!! She does seem happier. She woke up from her 2nd nap at 235p and bedtime isn't until 6p. That's 3.5 hours almost before bed... seems like too long. What should I do? I think later bed times mess her up too much and I also think she can't sleep more than 12 hours so putting her down early doesn't seem to be an option either if I don't want her morning wake up to move any earlier.

[becj86]

You could AP a 20min catnap after ~2hr (about 4:30-4:50) if she'll take it, then BT at 6/6:30.

[hotmessexpress]

You could AP a 20min catnap after ~2hr (about 4:30-4:50) if she'll take it, then BT at 6/6:30.

That's exactly what I did! She took catnap 435-455p and then asleep at 610p! She was happy and pleasant pretty much the whole day today except for when I was out of sight... I think that's the wonder week doozy you were talking about!

[becj86]

She was happy and pleasant pretty much the whole day today except for when I was out of sight..

This is the WW where she perceives the distance between you and herself and she doesn't yet have object permanence so she doesn't know that you exist even when she can't see you. That would be pretty scary, right?

[hotmessexpress]

This is the WW where she perceives the distance between you and herself and she doesn't yet have object permanence so she doesn't know that you exist even when she can't see you. That would be pretty scary, right?

Yes! For sure!

She's been doing pretty well the last several days. She's getting at least 1.5 hrs at each nap, once she got a 2 hr morning nap and once a 2 hr afternoon nap, not on the same day. She's going down between 545p-6p every night (which will turn into 645p-7p with the time change).

The first two days she slept until 6a! But the last 2 she's woke at 530 which is a bummer but not the end of the world. I'm not getting her until 6 though and still waiting 2.5 hrs from that time to put her back down again and she's been doing fine with the naps. I'm going to wait it out a few more days and see if that morning wake gets better. Maybe she just can't sleep longer than 11.5 hours, which I can accept bc she's still a great sleeper. I think in another few weeks when she's able to stay up a little longer it will all sort itself out. Right now it's tough bc she goes 2.5 hours + 1.5 hr nap so when she wakes from her last nap she usually has 3-3.5 hrs until bedtime. I don't want to put her down too early bc I don't want her to keep waking earlier. So I'm trying to stretch her to bedtime or trying a short catnap.

[becj86]

So I'm trying to stretch her to bedtime or trying a short catnap.

This is really all you can do through a transition like this.

I thought she might sleep 2hr naps and with 2.5hr A times, that would've been perfect to drop the nap but now she's doing 1.5hr naps, its a little more tricky. You could try a bump to 2:40 or 2:45 A time if you want to, which would even out the A times a bit and give you less to stretch in the evening and may increase the naps but may not. Certainly I'd be suggesting increasing the A time like that sometime in the next week or two so you're increasing gradually rather than having to big increases like you have this time

[becj86]

How are you going?

[hotmessexpress]

Last week was so hard! She was sleeping 1.5 hrs each nap but waking up crying and cranky very quick after the nap. I tried bumping up the A time but then I just stopped fighting it and three days ago started putting her down when she got tired instead of distracting her. This is usually around 2 hr 20 min for the first A time, and 2 hrs for the second. Now she's taking 2-2.5 hr naps!! She still has a long stretch before bed, usually about 3 hrs. We tried to CN but she hasn't been wanting to go down for it so we just bumped bed time up a bit and she's still going 11-11.5 hrs at night. She's waking anywhere from 530-6 but is either playing quietly in her crib or dozing back off until I get her at 6. I think my baby is just a sleepy head!! Lol

[becj86]

I think my baby is just a sleepy head!!

I think you're right. Lucky you! Keep in mind that her A times will have to increase, just probably will always be a bit lower than average and her naps longer than average - if you're posted here again in future, really good to know you have a high sleep needs (HSN) LO.

Well done finding what works for your LO.