Please help me tweak A time!!

[Tabyria]

Hi there,

Naps are getting out of control again and it's starting to affect night time sleep (it's also affecting me  )
LO is 15weeks. Naps used to be 45-50min and are now 25-35.  She's been on 1h30 A since she was 10w old and I guess we might need to increase. But I'd need someone to walk me through it as she's obviously also OT from the short naps.

A couple of days this week, for info:

MONDAY
E 7.15-7.35
S 7.45 (she treats that bit as night)

A 9.03
E 9.20
A 9.25
S 10.09 (took 5min to fall asleep, by herself without patting)

A 10.38 (tried for 30min to extend)
E 11.28
A 11.37
S 12.20 (took 20min to fall asleep, needed my hand on her)

A 12.53 (tried for 30min to extend)
E 13.50
A 14.02
S 15.47 (took 1h40 of crying  )

A 16.14 (tried for 30min to extend)
E 16.40
A 16.35
S put down at 17.20, gave up after 1h of crying

E 18.30
19.30 bath, bedtime routine
E 20.00-20.25 ; 20h45-21h00 (cluster feeding)
S 21h15
(woke up 22h00 crying but we resettled her quickly. Then slept 10-8.30 with feeds at 4am and 7.30am)

SUNDAY
E 7.35-7.50
S 7.50 (treat as night time)

A 8.30
E 9.45
A 9.52
S 10.20

A 10.55 (tried for 30min to extend)
E 12.15
A 12.20 (short wind down/sleeping bag)
S 13.25 (took 1h of crying)

A 14.20 (tried for 30min to extend)
E 15.40
A 15.50
S 15.55

A 16.19 (tried for 30min to extend)
E 17.55
S 18.34 (long cluster feed, fell asleep on breast by accident)

A 18.49
E 20.07-20.25
E 20.47-21.01 (cluster feeding. Falling asleep then waking up again to eat avidly)
S 21.15
Then slept perfectly 9.15-8.30 with feeds 3.30 and 7am.

I thought maybe she was UT for the first nap and then became OT from catnap so today I upped her first A time from 1h to 1h20min (it's always the shortest of the day). Big mistake as it backfired!!  We had 1h40min of crying before a 18min nap. 
Then I put her down early after 1h10 for next nap: 1h of crying for 15min nap 
Then I reduced again to 1h A time and finally got a 32min nap. 
No nap after 5pm again.

It's starting to make me feel quite depressed and anxious, spending hours in the dark listening to her cry. I feel like I'm failing her as a mother and it's tough. I'd be grateful for any help or advice.

For info:
* we have a NAP ROUTINE: always in cot, curtains drawn, sleeping bag (she hates swaddle and white noise, and refuses dummy).
* TO SETTLE: A firm hand on her chest and caressing her head is what works (sush/pat is now too stimulating). If crying I do that and PU/PD (but it usually doesn't work: if we reach that point, just going back towards the mattress makes her cry again)
* She's quite GOOD AT FALLING ASLEEP BY HERSELF normally, is willing to do it most of the time and does it very well at night (goes back by herself if wakes up early in the morning). We could even let her fall asleep by herself in the room until 10days ago when it all became awful again. So I really think bad A time is the problem.
* EXTEND NAPS: We've been trying systematically through both methods (personal version of sush/pat and W2S) for a few weeks with no success. Now I feel it's taking too much A time away and adding even more stress for both of us so I've decided to stop for a while.
* She's EBF and teething a bit.

Thank you!!!!

[Tabyria]

Bump

Actually, I've strangely had more luck by reducing A time to 1h. Maybe that's the leap or because she's severely OT.

Today I once went as far as 1h05 min and she was so excited (practicing new sounds!) that she cried and giggled on and off for 3h (cried if I let her to sleep, giggled if I approached). I've given up...so she has napped 2x30min with last nap ending at 12.30pm :-/
it must be developmental...

[creations]

Hi there, sorry you didn't get any replies yet. I'm afraid i'm out of time for tonight but I've highlighted your post and hopefully you will have a reply within the next day or so.

[Tabyria]

Thanks you Creations.
Tonight she fell asleep on her own only to wake up screaming a few minutes later. Several times. Every time we spend time calming her down and then she drifts off happily by herself in 20-40min. So I really think she is OT. But at the same time 1h A time for her age seems too short. But when I try to increase just by 5min we get into a 3h nap-fighting-nightmare like this afternoon. Not sure how to tackle it.

[becj86]

Hi, sorry I haven't been past - been busy finishing assignments and preparing for exams!

I think you're battling a combination of UT with a chronic OT and probably some overstimulation. I think given the inconsistency of A times and such, the best bet will be to stick to 1:45 or 2hr A time by the clock for 3-4 days and see how she goes. If you do 2hr, you can reduce to 1:45 after a short nap but no shorter than that. She's not going to recover from the chronic OT with shorter A times, it just makes it worse because the naps are not restorative. It'll be a difficult few days but the more consistent you can be, the more chance your LO has to take the sleep she needs when the opportunity is given to her.

I think she's fighting the nap because she's UT when you try to PD. I suspect that she's overstimulated +/- overtired by the time she falls asleep so if you spend the time you're currently spending trying to get her to sleep as A time, she may well be more happy about going to sleep. PUPD is not ideal for a LO this age as it can be overstimulating. Your version of shush/pat is fine and you should keep doing that if it works for her.

I presume you're happy with a 9-9 night? If that suits your family, then that's fine. It could be something that doesn't suit her body clock but lets see how you go with keeping those A times consistent for a few days then think about whether we need to change the day/night cycle.

Hugs xx It can be very difficult when LO won't sleep. Make sure you get out and about if you need to, for your own sanity. Sitting in a dark room with a screaming baby is not good for you or her.

[Tabyria]

Oh thanks for the answer. Good luck for the exams!! Must be hard work with little ones in toes.

I'm so scared to increase A time like this. I managed to have the first 1h30 long nap in two months on Thursday by putting her down after 50min! She was rubbing her eyes pretty strongly and went down easily. But as I said, yesterday she rubbed her eyes at 50min and I kept her for another 15min to change nappy etc and we ended up in a 3h battle.

To be honest I PU/PD maybe once per hour as I find it too stimulating too. She gets overstimulated from just playing with the fingers of the hand that I put on her chest. I find what works best at that point is a change of scenery: I took her out of the cot, diffused the mood by playing for 20min and she finally fell asleep for 30min on the sofa. Not the teaching I want to give though.

But I agree 50min A time isn't what she needs at her age.

I'll try that and will report. Thanks again!

[becj86]

I managed to have the first 1h30 long nap in two months on Thursday by putting her down after 50min! She was rubbing her eyes pretty strongly and went down easily.

When in the day was this? Sometimes when LO is in an OT/UT loop like this, there is a sweet spot every now and then but really you've got to push, hard as that will be for a few days.

[Tabyria]

The random 1h30 nap after 50mn A time was around 4pm. Not ideal but I think she was just so OT from the day. Not that it usually makes her sleep more...

So, we've increased A time to 2h: it's been strangely easy! Little routine, no fuss, she's usually asleep by the 2h mark. It takes her about 10/15min to fall asleep by herself.
Naps are back to 30-45min long. She tries to go back to sleep by herself for about 15min before getting frustrated and crying, bless her. I've tried many times in the past to let her do it on her own (that's how she got the 1h30 the other day) or getting there early to extend via W2S or sussh/pat but nothing has worked so far.
I'm grateful at least that the hours of crying have stop and we're onto a more appropriate A time for her. Thanks for that!
My only concern is that she basically gets one less nap during the day so sleeps even less overall now 

Re: bedtime. Yes 9-9 works ok for us but it's not consistant and we've been trying to move it earlier by 15min every few days. It's not really working and bedtime/wake up time are even more unpredictable now. On one day we do the bath at 7.30 and she goes down at 21.30 let's say. The following day we do bath at 7.15 and she will cluster feed until 22.15. She's also started waking up at 8.30 more often, sometimes ready to start the day, and sometimes wanting to go back to sleep immediately (treating it like day time) until 10am.  I don't mind, except that we are in bed with low lights for the last feed after the bath and 19h-22h feels like a long time... I haven't had an evening in a while. I thought the two 21.15 mentioned earlier in the thread were the new norm but it hasn't happened again since. 

[becj86]

Yes 9-9 works ok for us but it's not consistant and we've been trying to move it earlier by 15min every few days.

What's your end goal here? When is your ideal WU and BT?

19h-22h feels like a long time

It is 3hr, an eighth of your day. It is a long time, that probably why if feels long.

She's also started waking up at 8.30 more often, sometimes ready to start the day, and sometimes wanting to go back to sleep immediately (treating it like day time) until 10am. 

This is where being consistent can help. If you're trying to move BT earlier, you have to know WU will move earlier too and get her up when she wakes at 8:30am and have a full 2hr A time. She wasn't born with a body clock that tells her what is day and what is night - you have to teach her that and she's getting mixed messages which makes it harder for her to self-regulate in regards to quantity of sleep.

The random 1h30 nap after 50mn A time was around 4pm. Not ideal but I think she was just so OT from the day. Not that it usually makes her sleep more...

This is when the short A times and short naps finally combined for her to be properly tired for a decent nap. That's why if you get the A times long enough, her naps will be longer.

It seems like you're putting her to bed at 1:45 A time hoping she'll be asleep by 2hr. Am I right? If so, I think you probably need to just reduce that falling asleep allowance a little as you're still putting her down UT and she's probably just a touch UT when she falls asleep, hence the 45min naps. Sometimes at this age, 45min naps can be developmental but I think given she has recently done a 1.5hr nap unassisted, its probably down to UT. How long has she been on 2hr for? If >4-5 days, it may be time to think about increasing it to 2:10. Not keen on pushing too hard given she's just 4mo but worth a little nudge if that's all it takes that she naps better.

Glad there's less crying, it makes life much more comfortable for everyone involved.

[Tabyria]

What's your end goal here? When is your ideal WU and BT?
-> Ideally we would have 8.30-8.30. So not too far off.

It is 3hr, an eighth of your day. It is a long time, that probably why if feels long.
-> Ahah yes indeed. But I've come to accept it. It will pass, like everything else, and I'm sure I'll miss that closeness. What I don't understand is how we're supposed to have a set bedtime when baby is still so unpredictable with cluster feeding. However, we've been having one long feed 8-9pm with a sleep starting 9.15/9.30 at least twice a week in the past couple of weeks so maybe our efforts are paying off.

This is where being consistent can help. If you're trying to move BT earlier, you have to know WU will move earlier too and get her up when she wakes at 8:30am and have a full 2hr A time. She wasn't born with a body clock that tells her what is day and what is night - you have to teach her that and she's getting mixed messages which makes it harder for her to self-regulate in regards to quantity of sleep.
-> Fine. I'm all for being consistant. But two things here:
1) I'm not sure about making her more tired for the sake of a routine. At 8.30, most of the time she wants to go back to sleep (falling asleep on the breast like it's night time). When I put her down it's true that it takes her a bit of time to go back to sleep (roughly 45min tossing and turning) but there's no crying, she's really calm with eyes closed and really wants to sleep. She eventually falls asleep and gets her best nap of the day, usually 45/50min. Two days ago, I got her up to see if that helped: at 9.30 she was clearly OT, very cranky and crying. And we tried to put her down at 8.30 in the evening and it didn't work. She still staid awake until 9.30 and was OT as the consequence of a longer day. So I think her natural rhythm is 9.30-9.30. So basically, by waking her up at 8.30, we lost a lot of sleep. But maybe things would be different if we sticked with it. I'm just reluctant to get her up when she so clearly wants to keep on sleeping and we don't need to go anywhere.
2) A lot of threads mention that the first A time is the shortest. I really struggle to get 2h from her at that time. 1h45 is the absolute max otherwise she's impossible to put down and so miserable.


It seems like you're putting her to bed at 1:45 A time hoping she'll be asleep by 2hr. Am I right? If so, I think you probably need to just reduce that falling asleep allowance a little as you're still putting her down UT and she's probably just a touch UT when she falls asleep, hence the 45min naps. Sometimes at this age, 45min naps can be developmental but I think given she has recently done a 1.5hr nap unassisted, its probably down to UT. How long has she been on 2hr for? If >4-5 days, it may be time to think about increasing it to 2:10. Not keen on pushing too hard given she's just 4mo but worth a little nudge if that's all it takes that she naps better.
-> Yep, you're right. Ok, I'll try that. She's been on 2h for a week today. The 1h30 nap was actually two 45min linked together (she woke up but managed to fall back asleep by herself within 5min).

Thanks again for your help!

[becj86]

I'm not sure about making her more tired for the sake of a routine. At 8.30, most of the time she wants to go back to sleep (falling asleep on the breast like it's night time). When I put her down it's true that it takes her a bit of time to go back to sleep (roughly 45min tossing and turning) but there's no crying, she's really calm with eyes closed and really wants to sleep. She eventually falls asleep and gets her best nap of the day, usually 45/50min.

Here's the thing. This is not a nap - its a continuation of the night, so her night is not finishing til 10amish when she wakes from this. which is why she's not going to sleep for the night until 9:30/10pm. You're not making her more tired, you're showing her when the day starts.

I'm just reluctant to get her up when she so clearly wants to keep on sleeping and we don't need to go anywhere.

You don't have to. Its your choice, but if you're going to go into a dark room and start feeding as if for BT at 7pm, expect to be there til 10pm because that's when she's actually had a 12hr day.

A lot of threads mention that the first A time is the shortest. I really struggle to get 2h from her at that time. 1h45 is the absolute max otherwise she's impossible to put down and so miserable.

And this absolutely works for some babies. Many of those babies happen to have restless sleep or long happy wakings towards the end of the 'night' though, so they're tired because they've not slept well during their night sleep because they know they will get another chance to sleep pretty soon (ie. too early for what they need to optimise their sleep). Your LO falls into this category IMO given the long time to settle after that feed at ~8:30.
Yes, these babies do get OT short-term while you stretch the A time first thing in the morning. They are usually easily resettled and much happier after a few days of getting used to the new routine. Some babies do truly do well with a shorter first A time. Likely an equal proportion of babies do well with a longer first A time and shorter ones thereafter. You won't know which camp your LO falls into without trying. Babies are not robots, they don't all do the same thing reliably when it comes to sleep. BW is a way to help find a routine (sequence of events) not a schedule that suits your baby and your family.

The 1h30 nap was actually two 45min linked together (she woke up but managed to fall back asleep by herself within 5min).

So, really close to right A time or perhaps developmental but she resettled independently which is what we're aiming for.

[Tabyria]

Thanks!

Maybe I should continue that post under the Bedtime thread I had created a while ago. But basically, while I try to bring bedtime progressively earlier, I should also start getting her up earlier (at 8.30), aiming for a 12h day. Hadn't realised 12h was so set in stone for babies. The few times we tried to get her up at 8.30 we lost the 50min/continuation of the night sleep and had a crappy 25min nap instead + she was impossible to put down at night (10.30 or later, with a lot of crying due to OT). We've done it again yesterday and strangely the second nap of the day was also terrible, with 1h/1h30 of crying when we put her down (2h A time, exactly the same as we did for the rest of the week, which then turned into 3h A time and a 30min OT nap. She then refused to nap after 4.30, we tried for an early bedtime which didn't work and she finally fell asleep at 10.30). So yes, ultimately getting up at 8.30 makes her more tired because the whole day becomes such a mess and we gave up, thinking it wasn't her natural rhythm. But maybe we just need to persevere.

I know it's not a routine and I'm not looking for one per se. Just finding the right sequence that would make LO happy and not OT every day.

You say the 1h30 nap happened when we had the right A time but that's when I did a 50min A time, which is what confuses me. Maybe it just means that particular day, she was so OT that she needed to have A time cut short as day went on and we reached the sweet spot (it was the 4pm nap).

Interesting point re: first A time. Indeed, baby is quite restless in the morning (She's finding more and more difficult to go back to sleep after the 6/7am feed, and I usually can't sleep even when she finally falls asleep as she tosses and turns). I find strange that babies can "know they will get another chance to sleep pretty soon" and therefore "decide" somehow not to sleep well enough during the end of the night. Maybe I underestimate babies and they're more calculating than I thought. Will Definitely keep trying different scenarios.
How long would you try a scenario before deciding it doesn't work for your baby (I mean, knowing for sure that it's not because they're not used to it yet). A week? Can you come back easily from a week of messing up their rhythm if that really doesn't work?

I really put all my efforts into trying to understand what works best for her, trying to create some kind of structure to help her thrive but also be flexible to listen to her needs. I really appreciate your help. When I read that "we need to teach her" so and so though, I can't help but feel I'm being judged for failing her (aka I'm not teaching her what she needs) and it's tough. I'm a FTM and doing my best. Thanks so much for the support.

[becj86]

But basically, while I try to bring bedtime progressively earlier, I should also start getting her up earlier (at 8.30), aiming for a 12h day.

Yes, sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear about that before. 12hr is as much as a LO this age can manage, though by 5-6 months, 13hr days are ok for some.

You say the 1h30 nap happened when we had the right A time but that's when I did a 50min A time, which is what confuses me. Maybe it just means that particular day, she was so OT that she needed to have A time cut short as day went on and we reached the sweet spot (it was the 4pm nap).

Sorry, what I should have said there was she was about the right amount of tired rather than that the A time was about right. From this 1.5hr nap, I can surmise that given the right circumstances, she is able to join her sleep cycles together by herself. Not every baby can do that at this stage, so its useful information when interpreting nap lengths.

So yes, ultimately getting up at 8.30 makes her more tired because the whole day becomes such a mess and we gave up, thinking it wasn't her natural rhythm. But maybe we just need to persevere.

Yes, the first day will almost always be horrendous when you get her up when she's used to sleeping longer. If I were to wake you 1.5hr earlier than you're used to, you'd be tired too. If you had to get up earlier every day though, to go to work, for instance, you'd learn to go to bed earlier to get enough sleep and you'd be ok within a few days. That's essentially what I'm suggesting you do for her. She didn't come out of your womb with a knowledge of day or night (in fact she probably did the complete opposite, being more active when you were still and sleeping when you were active and she was rocking about in your belly). I'm not saying we need to teach her this because you haven't. I'm saying our job as parents is to help our children learn and learning that there is a day and a night and we sleep at night time and nap through the day as necessary if just one of the things we all teach our babies. Every mum who posts on BW is doing their best, everyone who posts support and/or information understands that, as we were all in those FTM shoes.

Indeed, baby is quite restless in the morning (She's finding more and more difficult to go back to sleep after the 6/7am feed, and I usually can't sleep even when she finally falls asleep as she tosses and turns). I find strange that babies can "know they will get another chance to sleep pretty soon" and therefore "decide" somehow not to sleep well enough during the end of the night. Maybe I underestimate babies and they're more calculating than I thought.

Sorry again, poor wording on my part. Babies are not calculating at all. Physiologically, they need sleep. We give them the opportunity to sleep and they take it. If we give them too much opportunity to sleep, they don't sleep as well as if we give them the right amount.  I'm not sure of the physiology but from the many babies I've seen here in the last 6.5 years, I know that babies whose first A time is too short get restless through those last hours of the night, then have long wakings in those hours, then wake earlier and earlier. If you can see those signs early and increase the A time in the first few days of that trend appearing, things are much easier and don't fall apart so much. I think that its related to LO's body trying to be tired enough for the first nap, they need more A time and the only way they can get it is to wake earlier because they're still being soothed off to sleep at the same time.

I feel like I've done a lot of apologising!

I really put all my efforts into trying to understand what works best for her, trying to create some kind of structure to help her thrive but also be flexible to listen to her needs.

I understand this feeling - been there, done that with my own newborn and paid the price, hence why I'm still here moderating Naps and Night Wakings boards when my child is nearly 7 years old. I found that when things were all over the place with the routine, sticking fairly rigidly to an A time for 3-4 days would give me a good platform on which to then base any further tweaks to the routine. That is also what I've seen work well for many babies over the years which is why I suggest it to you.

Preferences are all different, so it helps to know when your ideal WU and BT are. I think given her age of 17 weeks, if you were to stick with 2hr A times for 3-4 days and record what happens, we will have some good information. At this age, 2hr is a fairly common A time (not much variation in normal) but by 6 months, A times vary by 30mins and by an hour at 9months, so this is a good time when you can confidently pick a time and stick with it for a few days knowing you're probably right. It is important that you keep WU time reasonably similar during these few days. It is reasonable to either leave it at 10am if you so desire (we can shift it earlier later if you wish) or change it to 8:30am but keeping the WU and the A time consistent for 3-4 days at least is really important - no point upsetting her with a change if you're not going to stick with it long enough for her to see the benefit of the predictability.

[Tabyria]

Thanks a lot for all of that! This is so helpful.

Baby has been on 2h A time for a week. We've moved WU time to 8.30. I'm still trying to increase her first A time of the day to 2h as she's really cranky after 1h45 and acts OT (lots of crying, takes ages to fall asleep) when I push to 2h but I will keep pushing as a rule as of today and record for the next few days what happens before posting here.

It's tricky as she's been waking up at 7h30 today and yesterday so our WU time is off again. And nights are becoming horrendously restless to the point I was wondering if babies could suffer from insomnia. But then it makes sense based on what you explain above: it might all be because of that first A time. I hope it is! She can go back to sleep by herself and does it all the time at night but it's taking more and more time. Last night, she was awake, tossing and turning and slamming the mattress with her feet from 4 to 4.50 then 6 to 6.50 then 7.30...I gave up at 8.30 and we started our day but she had been awake for 1h, trying to go back to sleep. No need to say that I only slept between 5 and 6 in that time frame so I'm exhausted too today.

The good thing is that I managed to get her to have 1h30 long naps at lunchtime two days in a row in the pram. And yesterday I managed to extend her morning nap to 1h30 in the cot (but then she wouldn't have a longer lunch nap, only 39min).
The 1h30 morning nap was after 1h45 A time. Today, I did 2h A time and she's been crying and fighting the nap for 1h, it's ugly But I'll persevere.

She still goes down between 8.40pm and 10pm in the evening but more and more often around 9-9.30pm so we are making slow progress. Maybe...

Will keep trying!

[becj86]

Sounds like a great plan, happy to help tweak routine here and there.

Keep in mind that whilst 2hr is average A time at 4months and there's not a whole lot of variation with that, by 6mo, A times are 2:45-3hr, so increasing by 15min every fortnight or thereabouts. She's nearly 4.5mo by now, so you may get to 2:15 and be comfortable for a week or two then need another increase.

Sounds like you've done a great job with increasing there, she's getting a good nap here and there, still some UT ones though. UT signs look quite similar to OT sometimes - getting upset re: being put down for naps, taking a long time to settle, etc.