Please help me tweak A time!!

[Tabyria]

Hi there,

Naps are getting out of control again and it's starting to affect night time sleep (it's also affecting me  )
LO is 15weeks. Naps used to be 45-50min and are now 25-35.  She's been on 1h30 A since she was 10w old and I guess we might need to increase. But I'd need someone to walk me through it as she's obviously also OT from the short naps.

A couple of days this week, for info:

MONDAY
E 7.15-7.35
S 7.45 (she treats that bit as night)

A 9.03
E 9.20
A 9.25
S 10.09 (took 5min to fall asleep, by herself without patting)

A 10.38 (tried for 30min to extend)
E 11.28
A 11.37
S 12.20 (took 20min to fall asleep, needed my hand on her)

A 12.53 (tried for 30min to extend)
E 13.50
A 14.02
S 15.47 (took 1h40 of crying  )

A 16.14 (tried for 30min to extend)
E 16.40
A 16.35
S put down at 17.20, gave up after 1h of crying

E 18.30
19.30 bath, bedtime routine
E 20.00-20.25 ; 20h45-21h00 (cluster feeding)
S 21h15
(woke up 22h00 crying but we resettled her quickly. Then slept 10-8.30 with feeds at 4am and 7.30am)

SUNDAY
E 7.35-7.50
S 7.50 (treat as night time)

A 8.30
E 9.45
A 9.52
S 10.20

A 10.55 (tried for 30min to extend)
E 12.15
A 12.20 (short wind down/sleeping bag)
S 13.25 (took 1h of crying)

A 14.20 (tried for 30min to extend)
E 15.40
A 15.50
S 15.55

A 16.19 (tried for 30min to extend)
E 17.55
S 18.34 (long cluster feed, fell asleep on breast by accident)

A 18.49
E 20.07-20.25
E 20.47-21.01 (cluster feeding. Falling asleep then waking up again to eat avidly)
S 21.15
Then slept perfectly 9.15-8.30 with feeds 3.30 and 7am.

I thought maybe she was UT for the first nap and then became OT from catnap so today I upped her first A time from 1h to 1h20min (it's always the shortest of the day). Big mistake as it backfired!!  We had 1h40min of crying before a 18min nap. 
Then I put her down early after 1h10 for next nap: 1h of crying for 15min nap 
Then I reduced again to 1h A time and finally got a 32min nap. 
No nap after 5pm again.

It's starting to make me feel quite depressed and anxious, spending hours in the dark listening to her cry. I feel like I'm failing her as a mother and it's tough. I'd be grateful for any help or advice.

For info:
* we have a NAP ROUTINE: always in cot, curtains drawn, sleeping bag (she hates swaddle and white noise, and refuses dummy).
* TO SETTLE: A firm hand on her chest and caressing her head is what works (sush/pat is now too stimulating). If crying I do that and PU/PD (but it usually doesn't work: if we reach that point, just going back towards the mattress makes her cry again)
* She's quite GOOD AT FALLING ASLEEP BY HERSELF normally, is willing to do it most of the time and does it very well at night (goes back by herself if wakes up early in the morning). We could even let her fall asleep by herself in the room until 10days ago when it all became awful again. So I really think bad A time is the problem.
* EXTEND NAPS: We've been trying systematically through both methods (personal version of sush/pat and W2S) for a few weeks with no success. Now I feel it's taking too much A time away and adding even more stress for both of us so I've decided to stop for a while.
* She's EBF and teething a bit.

Thank you!!!!

[Tabyria]

Bump

Actually, I've strangely had more luck by reducing A time to 1h. Maybe that's the leap or because she's severely OT.

Today I once went as far as 1h05 min and she was so excited (practicing new sounds!) that she cried and giggled on and off for 3h (cried if I let her to sleep, giggled if I approached). I've given up...so she has napped 2x30min with last nap ending at 12.30pm :-/
it must be developmental...

[creations]

Hi there, sorry you didn't get any replies yet. I'm afraid i'm out of time for tonight but I've highlighted your post and hopefully you will have a reply within the next day or so.

[Tabyria]

Thanks you Creations.
Tonight she fell asleep on her own only to wake up screaming a few minutes later. Several times. Every time we spend time calming her down and then she drifts off happily by herself in 20-40min. So I really think she is OT. But at the same time 1h A time for her age seems too short. But when I try to increase just by 5min we get into a 3h nap-fighting-nightmare like this afternoon. Not sure how to tackle it.

[becj86]

Hi, sorry I haven't been past - been busy finishing assignments and preparing for exams!

I think you're battling a combination of UT with a chronic OT and probably some overstimulation. I think given the inconsistency of A times and such, the best bet will be to stick to 1:45 or 2hr A time by the clock for 3-4 days and see how she goes. If you do 2hr, you can reduce to 1:45 after a short nap but no shorter than that. She's not going to recover from the chronic OT with shorter A times, it just makes it worse because the naps are not restorative. It'll be a difficult few days but the more consistent you can be, the more chance your LO has to take the sleep she needs when the opportunity is given to her.

I think she's fighting the nap because she's UT when you try to PD. I suspect that she's overstimulated +/- overtired by the time she falls asleep so if you spend the time you're currently spending trying to get her to sleep as A time, she may well be more happy about going to sleep. PUPD is not ideal for a LO this age as it can be overstimulating. Your version of shush/pat is fine and you should keep doing that if it works for her.

I presume you're happy with a 9-9 night? If that suits your family, then that's fine. It could be something that doesn't suit her body clock but lets see how you go with keeping those A times consistent for a few days then think about whether we need to change the day/night cycle.

Hugs xx It can be very difficult when LO won't sleep. Make sure you get out and about if you need to, for your own sanity. Sitting in a dark room with a screaming baby is not good for you or her.

[Tabyria]

Oh thanks for the answer. Good luck for the exams!! Must be hard work with little ones in toes.

I'm so scared to increase A time like this. I managed to have the first 1h30 long nap in two months on Thursday by putting her down after 50min! She was rubbing her eyes pretty strongly and went down easily. But as I said, yesterday she rubbed her eyes at 50min and I kept her for another 15min to change nappy etc and we ended up in a 3h battle.

To be honest I PU/PD maybe once per hour as I find it too stimulating too. She gets overstimulated from just playing with the fingers of the hand that I put on her chest. I find what works best at that point is a change of scenery: I took her out of the cot, diffused the mood by playing for 20min and she finally fell asleep for 30min on the sofa. Not the teaching I want to give though.

But I agree 50min A time isn't what she needs at her age.

I'll try that and will report. Thanks again!

[becj86]

I managed to have the first 1h30 long nap in two months on Thursday by putting her down after 50min! She was rubbing her eyes pretty strongly and went down easily.

When in the day was this? Sometimes when LO is in an OT/UT loop like this, there is a sweet spot every now and then but really you've got to push, hard as that will be for a few days.

[Tabyria]

The random 1h30 nap after 50mn A time was around 4pm. Not ideal but I think she was just so OT from the day. Not that it usually makes her sleep more...

So, we've increased A time to 2h: it's been strangely easy! Little routine, no fuss, she's usually asleep by the 2h mark. It takes her about 10/15min to fall asleep by herself.
Naps are back to 30-45min long. She tries to go back to sleep by herself for about 15min before getting frustrated and crying, bless her. I've tried many times in the past to let her do it on her own (that's how she got the 1h30 the other day) or getting there early to extend via W2S or sussh/pat but nothing has worked so far.
I'm grateful at least that the hours of crying have stop and we're onto a more appropriate A time for her. Thanks for that!
My only concern is that she basically gets one less nap during the day so sleeps even less overall now 

Re: bedtime. Yes 9-9 works ok for us but it's not consistant and we've been trying to move it earlier by 15min every few days. It's not really working and bedtime/wake up time are even more unpredictable now. On one day we do the bath at 7.30 and she goes down at 21.30 let's say. The following day we do bath at 7.15 and she will cluster feed until 22.15. She's also started waking up at 8.30 more often, sometimes ready to start the day, and sometimes wanting to go back to sleep immediately (treating it like day time) until 10am.  I don't mind, except that we are in bed with low lights for the last feed after the bath and 19h-22h feels like a long time... I haven't had an evening in a while. I thought the two 21.15 mentioned earlier in the thread were the new norm but it hasn't happened again since. 

[becj86]

Yes 9-9 works ok for us but it's not consistant and we've been trying to move it earlier by 15min every few days.

What's your end goal here? When is your ideal WU and BT?

19h-22h feels like a long time

It is 3hr, an eighth of your day. It is a long time, that probably why if feels long.

She's also started waking up at 8.30 more often, sometimes ready to start the day, and sometimes wanting to go back to sleep immediately (treating it like day time) until 10am. 

This is where being consistent can help. If you're trying to move BT earlier, you have to know WU will move earlier too and get her up when she wakes at 8:30am and have a full 2hr A time. She wasn't born with a body clock that tells her what is day and what is night - you have to teach her that and she's getting mixed messages which makes it harder for her to self-regulate in regards to quantity of sleep.

The random 1h30 nap after 50mn A time was around 4pm. Not ideal but I think she was just so OT from the day. Not that it usually makes her sleep more...

This is when the short A times and short naps finally combined for her to be properly tired for a decent nap. That's why if you get the A times long enough, her naps will be longer.

It seems like you're putting her to bed at 1:45 A time hoping she'll be asleep by 2hr. Am I right? If so, I think you probably need to just reduce that falling asleep allowance a little as you're still putting her down UT and she's probably just a touch UT when she falls asleep, hence the 45min naps. Sometimes at this age, 45min naps can be developmental but I think given she has recently done a 1.5hr nap unassisted, its probably down to UT. How long has she been on 2hr for? If >4-5 days, it may be time to think about increasing it to 2:10. Not keen on pushing too hard given she's just 4mo but worth a little nudge if that's all it takes that she naps better.

Glad there's less crying, it makes life much more comfortable for everyone involved.

[Tabyria]

What's your end goal here? When is your ideal WU and BT?
-> Ideally we would have 8.30-8.30. So not too far off.

It is 3hr, an eighth of your day. It is a long time, that probably why if feels long.
-> Ahah yes indeed. But I've come to accept it. It will pass, like everything else, and I'm sure I'll miss that closeness. What I don't understand is how we're supposed to have a set bedtime when baby is still so unpredictable with cluster feeding. However, we've been having one long feed 8-9pm with a sleep starting 9.15/9.30 at least twice a week in the past couple of weeks so maybe our efforts are paying off.

This is where being consistent can help. If you're trying to move BT earlier, you have to know WU will move earlier too and get her up when she wakes at 8:30am and have a full 2hr A time. She wasn't born with a body clock that tells her what is day and what is night - you have to teach her that and she's getting mixed messages which makes it harder for her to self-regulate in regards to quantity of sleep.
-> Fine. I'm all for being consistant. But two things here:
1) I'm not sure about making her more tired for the sake of a routine. At 8.30, most of the time she wants to go back to sleep (falling asleep on the breast like it's night time). When I put her down it's true that it takes her a bit of time to go back to sleep (roughly 45min tossing and turning) but there's no crying, she's really calm with eyes closed and really wants to sleep. She eventually falls asleep and gets her best nap of the day, usually 45/50min. Two days ago, I got her up to see if that helped: at 9.30 she was clearly OT, very cranky and crying. And we tried to put her down at 8.30 in the evening and it didn't work. She still staid awake until 9.30 and was OT as the consequence of a longer day. So I think her natural rhythm is 9.30-9.30. So basically, by waking her up at 8.30, we lost a lot of sleep. But maybe things would be different if we sticked with it. I'm just reluctant to get her up when she so clearly wants to keep on sleeping and we don't need to go anywhere.
2) A lot of threads mention that the first A time is the shortest. I really struggle to get 2h from her at that time. 1h45 is the absolute max otherwise she's impossible to put down and so miserable.


It seems like you're putting her to bed at 1:45 A time hoping she'll be asleep by 2hr. Am I right? If so, I think you probably need to just reduce that falling asleep allowance a little as you're still putting her down UT and she's probably just a touch UT when she falls asleep, hence the 45min naps. Sometimes at this age, 45min naps can be developmental but I think given she has recently done a 1.5hr nap unassisted, its probably down to UT. How long has she been on 2hr for? If >4-5 days, it may be time to think about increasing it to 2:10. Not keen on pushing too hard given she's just 4mo but worth a little nudge if that's all it takes that she naps better.
-> Yep, you're right. Ok, I'll try that. She's been on 2h for a week today. The 1h30 nap was actually two 45min linked together (she woke up but managed to fall back asleep by herself within 5min).

Thanks again for your help!

[becj86]

I'm not sure about making her more tired for the sake of a routine. At 8.30, most of the time she wants to go back to sleep (falling asleep on the breast like it's night time). When I put her down it's true that it takes her a bit of time to go back to sleep (roughly 45min tossing and turning) but there's no crying, she's really calm with eyes closed and really wants to sleep. She eventually falls asleep and gets her best nap of the day, usually 45/50min.

Here's the thing. This is not a nap - its a continuation of the night, so her night is not finishing til 10amish when she wakes from this. which is why she's not going to sleep for the night until 9:30/10pm. You're not making her more tired, you're showing her when the day starts.

I'm just reluctant to get her up when she so clearly wants to keep on sleeping and we don't need to go anywhere.

You don't have to. Its your choice, but if you're going to go into a dark room and start feeding as if for BT at 7pm, expect to be there til 10pm because that's when she's actually had a 12hr day.

A lot of threads mention that the first A time is the shortest. I really struggle to get 2h from her at that time. 1h45 is the absolute max otherwise she's impossible to put down and so miserable.

And this absolutely works for some babies. Many of those babies happen to have restless sleep or long happy wakings towards the end of the 'night' though, so they're tired because they've not slept well during their night sleep because they know they will get another chance to sleep pretty soon (ie. too early for what they need to optimise their sleep). Your LO falls into this category IMO given the long time to settle after that feed at ~8:30.
Yes, these babies do get OT short-term while you stretch the A time first thing in the morning. They are usually easily resettled and much happier after a few days of getting used to the new routine. Some babies do truly do well with a shorter first A time. Likely an equal proportion of babies do well with a longer first A time and shorter ones thereafter. You won't know which camp your LO falls into without trying. Babies are not robots, they don't all do the same thing reliably when it comes to sleep. BW is a way to help find a routine (sequence of events) not a schedule that suits your baby and your family.

The 1h30 nap was actually two 45min linked together (she woke up but managed to fall back asleep by herself within 5min).

So, really close to right A time or perhaps developmental but she resettled independently which is what we're aiming for.

[Tabyria]

Thanks!

Maybe I should continue that post under the Bedtime thread I had created a while ago. But basically, while I try to bring bedtime progressively earlier, I should also start getting her up earlier (at 8.30), aiming for a 12h day. Hadn't realised 12h was so set in stone for babies. The few times we tried to get her up at 8.30 we lost the 50min/continuation of the night sleep and had a crappy 25min nap instead + she was impossible to put down at night (10.30 or later, with a lot of crying due to OT). We've done it again yesterday and strangely the second nap of the day was also terrible, with 1h/1h30 of crying when we put her down (2h A time, exactly the same as we did for the rest of the week, which then turned into 3h A time and a 30min OT nap. She then refused to nap after 4.30, we tried for an early bedtime which didn't work and she finally fell asleep at 10.30). So yes, ultimately getting up at 8.30 makes her more tired because the whole day becomes such a mess and we gave up, thinking it wasn't her natural rhythm. But maybe we just need to persevere.

I know it's not a routine and I'm not looking for one per se. Just finding the right sequence that would make LO happy and not OT every day.

You say the 1h30 nap happened when we had the right A time but that's when I did a 50min A time, which is what confuses me. Maybe it just means that particular day, she was so OT that she needed to have A time cut short as day went on and we reached the sweet spot (it was the 4pm nap).

Interesting point re: first A time. Indeed, baby is quite restless in the morning (She's finding more and more difficult to go back to sleep after the 6/7am feed, and I usually can't sleep even when she finally falls asleep as she tosses and turns). I find strange that babies can "know they will get another chance to sleep pretty soon" and therefore "decide" somehow not to sleep well enough during the end of the night. Maybe I underestimate babies and they're more calculating than I thought. Will Definitely keep trying different scenarios.
How long would you try a scenario before deciding it doesn't work for your baby (I mean, knowing for sure that it's not because they're not used to it yet). A week? Can you come back easily from a week of messing up their rhythm if that really doesn't work?

I really put all my efforts into trying to understand what works best for her, trying to create some kind of structure to help her thrive but also be flexible to listen to her needs. I really appreciate your help. When I read that "we need to teach her" so and so though, I can't help but feel I'm being judged for failing her (aka I'm not teaching her what she needs) and it's tough. I'm a FTM and doing my best. Thanks so much for the support.

[becj86]

But basically, while I try to bring bedtime progressively earlier, I should also start getting her up earlier (at 8.30), aiming for a 12h day.

Yes, sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear about that before. 12hr is as much as a LO this age can manage, though by 5-6 months, 13hr days are ok for some.

You say the 1h30 nap happened when we had the right A time but that's when I did a 50min A time, which is what confuses me. Maybe it just means that particular day, she was so OT that she needed to have A time cut short as day went on and we reached the sweet spot (it was the 4pm nap).

Sorry, what I should have said there was she was about the right amount of tired rather than that the A time was about right. From this 1.5hr nap, I can surmise that given the right circumstances, she is able to join her sleep cycles together by herself. Not every baby can do that at this stage, so its useful information when interpreting nap lengths.

So yes, ultimately getting up at 8.30 makes her more tired because the whole day becomes such a mess and we gave up, thinking it wasn't her natural rhythm. But maybe we just need to persevere.

Yes, the first day will almost always be horrendous when you get her up when she's used to sleeping longer. If I were to wake you 1.5hr earlier than you're used to, you'd be tired too. If you had to get up earlier every day though, to go to work, for instance, you'd learn to go to bed earlier to get enough sleep and you'd be ok within a few days. That's essentially what I'm suggesting you do for her. She didn't come out of your womb with a knowledge of day or night (in fact she probably did the complete opposite, being more active when you were still and sleeping when you were active and she was rocking about in your belly). I'm not saying we need to teach her this because you haven't. I'm saying our job as parents is to help our children learn and learning that there is a day and a night and we sleep at night time and nap through the day as necessary if just one of the things we all teach our babies. Every mum who posts on BW is doing their best, everyone who posts support and/or information understands that, as we were all in those FTM shoes.

Indeed, baby is quite restless in the morning (She's finding more and more difficult to go back to sleep after the 6/7am feed, and I usually can't sleep even when she finally falls asleep as she tosses and turns). I find strange that babies can "know they will get another chance to sleep pretty soon" and therefore "decide" somehow not to sleep well enough during the end of the night. Maybe I underestimate babies and they're more calculating than I thought.

Sorry again, poor wording on my part. Babies are not calculating at all. Physiologically, they need sleep. We give them the opportunity to sleep and they take it. If we give them too much opportunity to sleep, they don't sleep as well as if we give them the right amount.  I'm not sure of the physiology but from the many babies I've seen here in the last 6.5 years, I know that babies whose first A time is too short get restless through those last hours of the night, then have long wakings in those hours, then wake earlier and earlier. If you can see those signs early and increase the A time in the first few days of that trend appearing, things are much easier and don't fall apart so much. I think that its related to LO's body trying to be tired enough for the first nap, they need more A time and the only way they can get it is to wake earlier because they're still being soothed off to sleep at the same time.

I feel like I've done a lot of apologising!

I really put all my efforts into trying to understand what works best for her, trying to create some kind of structure to help her thrive but also be flexible to listen to her needs.

I understand this feeling - been there, done that with my own newborn and paid the price, hence why I'm still here moderating Naps and Night Wakings boards when my child is nearly 7 years old. I found that when things were all over the place with the routine, sticking fairly rigidly to an A time for 3-4 days would give me a good platform on which to then base any further tweaks to the routine. That is also what I've seen work well for many babies over the years which is why I suggest it to you.

Preferences are all different, so it helps to know when your ideal WU and BT are. I think given her age of 17 weeks, if you were to stick with 2hr A times for 3-4 days and record what happens, we will have some good information. At this age, 2hr is a fairly common A time (not much variation in normal) but by 6 months, A times vary by 30mins and by an hour at 9months, so this is a good time when you can confidently pick a time and stick with it for a few days knowing you're probably right. It is important that you keep WU time reasonably similar during these few days. It is reasonable to either leave it at 10am if you so desire (we can shift it earlier later if you wish) or change it to 8:30am but keeping the WU and the A time consistent for 3-4 days at least is really important - no point upsetting her with a change if you're not going to stick with it long enough for her to see the benefit of the predictability.

[Tabyria]

Thanks a lot for all of that! This is so helpful.

Baby has been on 2h A time for a week. We've moved WU time to 8.30. I'm still trying to increase her first A time of the day to 2h as she's really cranky after 1h45 and acts OT (lots of crying, takes ages to fall asleep) when I push to 2h but I will keep pushing as a rule as of today and record for the next few days what happens before posting here.

It's tricky as she's been waking up at 7h30 today and yesterday so our WU time is off again. And nights are becoming horrendously restless to the point I was wondering if babies could suffer from insomnia. But then it makes sense based on what you explain above: it might all be because of that first A time. I hope it is! She can go back to sleep by herself and does it all the time at night but it's taking more and more time. Last night, she was awake, tossing and turning and slamming the mattress with her feet from 4 to 4.50 then 6 to 6.50 then 7.30...I gave up at 8.30 and we started our day but she had been awake for 1h, trying to go back to sleep. No need to say that I only slept between 5 and 6 in that time frame so I'm exhausted too today.

The good thing is that I managed to get her to have 1h30 long naps at lunchtime two days in a row in the pram. And yesterday I managed to extend her morning nap to 1h30 in the cot (but then she wouldn't have a longer lunch nap, only 39min).
The 1h30 morning nap was after 1h45 A time. Today, I did 2h A time and she's been crying and fighting the nap for 1h, it's ugly But I'll persevere.

She still goes down between 8.40pm and 10pm in the evening but more and more often around 9-9.30pm so we are making slow progress. Maybe...

Will keep trying!

[becj86]

Sounds like a great plan, happy to help tweak routine here and there.

Keep in mind that whilst 2hr is average A time at 4months and there's not a whole lot of variation with that, by 6mo, A times are 2:45-3hr, so increasing by 15min every fortnight or thereabouts. She's nearly 4.5mo by now, so you may get to 2:15 and be comfortable for a week or two then need another increase.

Sounds like you've done a great job with increasing there, she's getting a good nap here and there, still some UT ones though. UT signs look quite similar to OT sometimes - getting upset re: being put down for naps, taking a long time to settle, etc.

[Tabyria]

 thanks! She's 17 weeks but only 4months just a few days ago (unless when we say months we still count in weeks?).

I think I'm getting better at reading UT/OT as she's had plenty of both  I really think this morning nightmare is OT as she  gets frantic, limbs going in all directions, super red ans hot to the touch: far too much adrenaline...
I must say it seems a bit counterintuitive to push for a longer A time when she's had such a crap night and wakes up already exhausted, rubbing eyes etc. But if the rubbish night is caused by the first short A time then we need to try to break it. She might need to go through this before getting used to a long A time in the morning as she's always had a short one before.

 I've been trying to get her to sleep for 3h, so 5h A time now... I stopped to feed her at some point and she was falling asleep at the breas but she keeps getting frantic again each time. I've given up, will put her in the pram and walk for as long as she accepts to sleep for.

Tough way to start the day, I've slept 3h last night, it's 12.15 and I haven't eaten anything yet. Not to mention the fact that I feel like I'm failing her so much and I'm worried about her health. I really find this stage harder than newborn

[becj86]

I've been trying to get her to sleep for 3h, so 5h A time now...

Constantly? Wow! You're persistent. Its worth trying for 10-15mins then giving yourself and LO a break then trying again as otherwise you can both get really worked up and nobody's going to benefit from that.

How did your walk go?

[Tabyria]

Well she needs to sleep so yes I'm persistent. And I don't stop because she goes through cycles and gets really close to falling asleep with eyes closed etc then starts crying again but can calm down etc. If that escalates I pick her up and we do a cuddle, etc, I don't let her cry for 3h. It can work at any point and stopping to go back downstairs just makes it worse as that stimulates her again I find, unless you use the pram. She was indeed getting worked up in the end that's why I stopped and changed tac.

Walk went well. She slept for three hours 1.30-4.30pm (waking up but connecting cycles) which means I also pushed the pram for three hours! As much as I had slept the night before...

We tried for a nap at 6.30pm but she wouldn't go down so we went for an early bedtime at 7pm. However, she refused to sleep until 9.15.
Then restless night again.  She only slept 3x40min between 2.30am and 7.30, and so did I. No crying, just trying to go to sleep for up to 1.15min every time time.

And we're up for the day again at 7.30 it seems So much for moving it to 8.30. I keep her in bed until 8.30 to let her know this isn't time to get up...Hope that will work.

She has huge dark circles and I'm exhausted. No way I can do another 3h walk to make her sleep today so I certainly won't push for 2h A time if she starts rubbing her eyes after 1h40!! Can't deal with another OT monster. I just don't think this can work when she wakes up already sleep deprived.

You're very patient. I will stop using this thread as my diary for your own sanity and will come back with EASY schedules after a few days. Thanks!

[becj86]

Wondering if there's some growth spurt at play here. There's a huge one around this age and I struggled until I worked out that he was crying due to hunger all the time (like every 1-1.5hr I was feeding after he had been 4hr between feeds).

You're very patient. I will stop using this thread as my diary for your own sanity and will come back with EASY schedules after a few days. Thanks!

Don't worry about my sanity! Its gone. Yours is still salvageable, so if you need to post, do so. If you need to take a break from thinking about it too much, don't post. Whatever works for you is fine by me.

Reading about the longer wake times and inconsolability and the bad night, I wonder if she's ill or teething or hungry - it unusual that this type of behaviour would continue for this long without there being some reason.

[Tabyria]

I was wondering about that.
There's definitely a bit of teething going on. I don't think she's ill but there might be something to do with her feeds. She used to eat more often but has started refusing the breast more and I think she's getting into a 4h now, which sometimes clashes with nap time when they don't happen straight away. Not sure at night: she would call if hungry instead of going back to sleep without crying after 1h, wouldn't she??
We're bang in the middle of leap#4 if you believe in that kind of thing so that might just be that.

Love it about your sanity  I'm sure I'll be in the same state in seven years. Nearly there already

[becj86]

We're bang in the middle of leap#4 if you believe in that kind of thing so that might just be that.

Could well be that.

Not sure at night: she would call if hungry instead of going back to sleep without crying after 1h, wouldn't she??

She's waking frequently at night but going back to sleep with no intervention? Or is she awake for an hour without being upset and then going back to sleep?

[Tabyria]

She tries to go back to sleep (no playing or cooing, eyes half open or closed, turning to one side to the other, rubbing her eyes, slamming the mattress with feet and sighing. It lasts from 15min to 1h15min) and eventually succeeds. Sometimes I put a hand on her to help when it takes a long time but it doesn't always help. I've realised yesterday that she might be more in a semi sleep or light sleep for some of it, but when she rubs her eyes even though they're closed I imagine she's awake..

Quick question: when pushing for longer A time, do we totally ignore other signs like eye rubbing, yawning, cranking, head heavy on shoulder etc? She sometimes does it after just 1h (which is how I put her down once after 50min and she slept for 1h30) but I keep her up and naps are nearly impossible to get. I still get OT naps where she wakes up with a jolt at 30min (no stirring so I can't extend). So far I've been trying putting her down anywhere between 1h50 and 2h05, taking into account a 10 or 5min wind down. No combo seems to work so far. But again, that might just be a weird phase.

[becj86]

I've realised yesterday that she might be more in a semi sleep or light sleep for some of it, but when she rubs her eyes even though they're closed I imagine she's awake..

Probably - babies have a lot more REM sleep than adults do. If she's not upset, just leave her to it. You putting a hand on her may even be disturbing her sleep too. I did the same thing with my DS and eventually learned that when this happened at night, he was just dreaming and more often than not, I woke him by trying to get him to settle.

I still get OT naps where she wakes up with a jolt at 30min (no stirring so I can't extend).

I think its worth trying being there at 25mins and just shushing or having a hand on her.

Her sleepy cues seem pretty unreliable if her naps are anything to go by. I have had success using the clock to decide when to look for cues, so by that I mean knowing A time should be about 2hr and assuming crankiness, etc before 1:45 is something other than tiredness then watching for cues between 1:45 and 2:05 then putting down for a nap even if there aren't cues. If you can get through 3-4 days of being really consistent with A times of 2hr, cues should become reliable again.

[Tabyria]

Ok, so one week on and it's a mix bag. We've had success with long naps a couple of times (highlighted below) and overall earlier bedtime. Clocks have changed which seems to finally bring the 8.30-8.30 day we were after (may it last!). So progress, definitely She also settles quickly, which leads me to think we have the right A time (2h10/2h15). But doing the same thing doesn't always bring similar results.
* It's not helped by the fact that she seems to go through phases when she doesn't want to eat for hours, so I suspect she might be hungry between sleep cycles... not sure. I imagine it's definitely keeping the one, sometimes two, night feeds necessary but that's another conversation... I might post separately on the Feed board for that.
* We're getting false starts in the evening too, which I always thought were linked to OT but lately it's happened when we had a late-ish nap leading to a strict 2h-ish A time before bedtime, which I thought was perfect... so maybe she needs more to have more sleep pressure?
* We used to always try to add an extra nap if we felt the gap before bedtime was too long (in pram as she won't go down after 5pm) but it has never really helped, and that meant that bedtime could be anytime in a 2h window during the week. We're now trying a more set in stone bedtime, even if that means she's sometimes OT, to see if the routine of a set bedtime helps in the long-run.
* She's still in a very noisy light sleep after 5/6am, tossing, turning and having little cries every 30/45min or so (cycle transitions I imagine), sometimes waking up around 7am and chatting to herself before going back to sleep if we don't engage.

She's just turned 19weeks (but will be 5months -date to date- in 2weeks). I'm thinking of trying systematic 2.15 A time next week and see what happens.
We always try to resettle after short naps, which never works. W2S never worked either when she was younger but maybe I should try again.

Anyway, here are the last few days:

TUESDAY
A 8.00
E 8.18
A 8.30
S 10.12

E 11.33
A 11.55
S 13.55

A 14.00 (woken up by noise argh)
S 14.39
A 15.06
refused to eat during afternoon
Bath 18.30
E 19.55 - 20.01
S 20.05
E 23.40 (??) & 3.58

WEDNESDAY
A 8.25
E 8.45 (threw up all feed)
E 9.13
A 9.21
S 10.36

A 11.13
E 12.00
A 12.05
S 13.58

A 14.31
E 15.30
A 15.39
S 16.29

E 17.37
A 17.45
Bath 18.45
E 19.04
S 20.15
20.30 woke up crying. Settled in 2min by herself.
21.00 woke up screaming. Took 30min to calm down.
22.00 woke up crying. Took 2min to settle
E 01.22 & 05.10

THURSDAY
A 8.20
E 9.10
A 9.16
S 11.20 (took a bit of time. Settled at 10.55 but only dozed, with jolts and eyes rubbing until 11.20)

A 11.49
E 12.10
A 12.16
E 14.45
S 15.26 (took 1h30 to settle. Included little breaks and one feed)

A 15.53
S 17.30 (in the pram)

A 17.58
E 18.07
A 18.21
Bath 18.45
E 19.16
S 19.59
20.10 woke up crying. Took 2min to resettle
21.18 woke up crying. Took 15min to resettle
E 01.35 & 5.48

FRIDAY (so far)
E refused all morning
A 08.00
S 10.07

A 10.45
E 11.08
A 11.12
S 13.07

A 13.47 (woke up screaming)
E 14.12
A 14.17
S 15.50

A 4.25
E 4.45
A 4.51
Bath 18.30

Thank you so much for having a look. Let me know if you spot something that I don't which makes sense to you!

[becj86]

S 10.12E 11.33

S 16.29E 17.37

So these are both longer naps than your usual 40-45min naps. They are still UT though - she's not getting through to 1.5hr...

A 11.13E 12.00A 12.05S 13.58A 14.31

Here, after 1:45 A time, she's OT.

S 11.20 (took a bit of time. Settled at 10.55 but only dozed, with jolts and eyes rubbing until 11.20)A 11.49

I'd probably call that a nap from 10:55 then - jolts are normal, adults have them too as we fall asleep and as we wake. They don't mean we're not asleep.

* It's not helped by the fact that she seems to go through phases when she doesn't want to eat for hours, so I suspect she might be hungry between sleep cycles... not sure. I imagine it's definitely keeping the one, sometimes two, night feeds necessary but that's another conversation... I might post separately on the Feed board for that.

After she wakes having not fed for several hours, does she feed well?

* We're getting false starts in the evening too, which I always thought were linked to OT but lately it's happened when we had a late-ish nap leading to a strict 2h-ish A time before bedtime, which I thought was perfect... so maybe she needs more to have more sleep pressure?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'more sleep pressure'? Often those false starts at night are OT but they can also be overstimulation, some form of discomfort, eg. teeth, gut esp. when you just start solids, etc.

* We used to always try to add an extra nap if we felt the gap before bedtime was too long (in pram as she won't go down after 5pm) but it has never really helped, and that meant that bedtime could be anytime in a 2h window during the week. We're now trying a more set in stone bedtime, even if that means she's sometimes OT, to see if the routine of a set bedtime helps in the long-run.

This is worth trying - stick with it for a couple of weeks to see if it will work. Do you think 8:30-8:30 will suit her? Some babies are fine with it but many would really struggle.

* She's still in a very noisy light sleep after 5/6am, tossing, turning and having little cries every 30/45min or so (cycle transitions I imagine), sometimes waking up around 7am and chatting to herself before going back to sleep if we don't engage.

Disturbing as that is for your sleep, its actually normal, though an increase in that first A time may help with the chatting around 7am.

I don't think there's a great role here for W2S - she's able to make it through the transition from one sleep cycle to the next on her own at times, so its more working out a routine that suits that will help in my humble opinion.

I think all things considered, I'd go as you plan to, for an A time of 2:15 for 3-4 days keeping it really consistent and see how she goes with that.

[Tabyria]

Thanks! Ok, I'm doing 2.15 A time and will report back.

To answer your question, after sleeping and after several hours she sometimes will eat, sometimes not. The other day for example, she had proper feeds at 6am and 12pm but just a 1min snack at 9am. I'm not worried, she is fine but some days she won't have a proper feed for 8h, just two 1min snack for the first half of the day. I think it's a distraction issue as she then becomes really hungry at nap time and ears very well before half falling asleep on the boob, which she's never done before. I've tried feeding before opening the curtains in the morning but it doesn't change anything. If there has been a feed less than 6h earlier she's just not hungry, which throws the all easy out of the window straight away as she won't eat until she's in her cot for a nap. Hope it's just a phase...

I thought babies would be on any rythm as long as it was 12h. She seems to struggle with 8.30-8.30 as she was up again at 7am the other day in spite of falling asleep at 9pm yesterday   (OT behaviour I think). I'm ok with her finding another rythm if it suits her but there's no consistency so hard to know what she needs. We do bath at 6.30 or 1h30 ish after the end of her last nap, whichever is the earlier, and from that on it depends on how long she eats for and how long she takes to go down. She can eat for 15 or 45min and then takes anything between 15 to 60min to fall asleep. We've tried bath earlier (5.30pm or 6pm) but then she often refuses to eat and I have to wait up to half an hour until she finally accepts the breast (she cluster-feeds every hour for the last three hours before bed and in that case I move the earlier feeds as well but that doesn't always work).

I'm very confused because we've had two very different days that don't make sense to me.
Yesterday, she woke up at 7.15, had a 50min nap at 9.30. It then took 1h to get her to sleep for her midday nap because I insisted on her falling asleep with me out of the bedroom, so she fell asleep at 1.20 after 3h A time and I thought we would get a crap OT nap but we got 1h25! (I know it's not 1h30 but pretty close and awesome for us!) She then refused to nap at 5pm, so that was 4h of A time...I was bracing myself for a hard evening but she fell asleep at 7.15 beautifully, without a sound!! And she slept very soundly without being restless
Today, she woke up at 7.30. We managed to get her to nap 45min, not more, with perfect A times of 2h15/2h20min, and last nap finishing at 5pm. Bath same time as yesterday at 6.30pm and down to sleep at 7.15. She seemed sleepy initially but was very excited within 5min and wanted to talk, grab everything, practice rolling, giggle, and cried when we tried to leave her to sleep (strangely seemed UT!). She finally fell asleep at 10pm only because I gave her my finger to suck on, something I hadn't done since she was a few weeks old!! What did we do wrong?? Why is it working less well when we follow the textbook?? Or did she get too OT yesterday and it's backfiring? She can't possibly need a 2-3-4 schedule, can she?? (I think these only work for much older babies and I really wasn't trying to implement it). No idea but I'm pretty burnt out tonight.

We'll get her up at 7.30 tomorrow (but she'll certainly wake up early from OT anyway) in order to try to set a schedule in place. We'll now aim for a 7.30-7.30 day which might work better for her.

(btw, wanted to say thanks and you were right about increasing the first A time. She clearly can handle it.)

[becj86]

I thought babies would be on any rythm as long as it was 12h.

Some babies are this flexible, some aren't. My son, for instance, did best with 6-6 but coped ok with 7-7 for a while, others I've seen here do really well with 9-9.

We've tried bath earlier (5.30pm or 6pm) but then she often refuses to eat and I have to wait up to half an hour until she finally accepts the breast (she cluster-feeds every hour for the last three hours before bed and in that case I move the earlier feeds as well but that doesn't always work).

I think if you were going to change the bath time, I'd make it in the morning rather than just earlier in the evening.

She seemed sleepy initially but was very excited within 5min and wanted to talk, grab everything, practice rolling, giggle, and cried when we tried to leave her to sleep (strangely seemed UT!). She finally fell asleep at 10pm only because I gave her my finger to suck on, something I hadn't done since she was a few weeks old!! What did we do wrong??

This sounds like she was overstimulated then got OT because she struggled to get off to sleep.

She can't possibly need a 2-3-4 schedule, can she??

Some babies do... Mine did the complete opposite - 4-3-2 at 8-9 months but I think 4hr is too much for your LO at this stage.

[Tabyria]

Thanks a lot!
Mmm...bath in the morning. That's an interesting thought. But it is the strongest cue within our bedtime routine since she was 6 weeks old so I'm not too keen on moving it. Plus, it's the daddy time she has during the day, so if that can work for her, we would like to keep it. Will keep it in mind though if bedtime remains rocky. We've had more success with a bedtime between 7-8pm in the past week, with feeds at 5.30 and 6.30 (before&after bath). The last two days were 7.30-7.30. Still trying to figure out if that's the pattern she needs but that would work for us.

We're having a BIG breakthrough with morning naps after 2h15 A time: two 1h15 last week and two 1h30 so far this week (yesterday and today). Hopefully this will happen more and more often!   

Now, the issue is that after such a long sleep, she doesn't want to go down after 2h15 for the next nap. She's still very refreshed at that point and resists it. We've pushed it a bit to 2h20/2h25 to see and she went down easily (4minutes by herself with her lovey) but ended up with 35min naps both times, so that would mean OT...

It gets worse as she then refuses to go down for a nap at 4pm (2h or 2h15 after the 35min nap). So, even though we have a first long nap, the overall amount of daytime sleep remains exactly the same or even less than before, and she's obviously OT in the evening (no crying, she's very easy to be around bless her, but lots of eyes rubbing and difficulty to go to sleep or taking ages to feed resulting in a later bedtime). Not sure there's anything we can do at this stage. Maybe just stick with it and hopefully she'll get used to the new pattern and find her feet?!

[becj86]

We've had more success with a bedtime between 7-8pm in the past week, with feeds at 5.30 and 6.30 (before&after bath). The last two days were 7.30-7.30. Still trying to figure out if that's the pattern she needs but that would work for us.

This is good progress

We're having a BIG breakthrough with morning naps after 2h15 A time: two 1h15 last week and two 1h30 so far this week (yesterday and today). Hopefully this will happen more and more often!

That's great Keep in mind that A times increase ~15mins every fortnight or thereabouts, so if the nap starts getting shorter again or she's waking earlier or having cot parties in the early hours of the morning, its time to increase again.

She's still very refreshed at that point and resists it. We've pushed it a bit to 2h20/2h25 to see and she went down easily (4minutes by herself with her lovey) but ended up with 35min naps both times, so that would mean OT...

35min is tricky - not necessarily OT... Any chance of resettling?

So we now know that she *can* in the right circumstances, take a long nap. Its just now a matter of tweaking to find the sweet spot for her. As she gets used to the new A times, she may well start napping better.

[Tabyria]

Thank you! Didn't manage to resettle the 35min nap. Tried 2h30 and we had a 25min nap so I don't think she's ready for that long yet. Will keep in mind that we might get there soon though.
I think I see a lot more clearly now and can navigate on my own (for the time being at least). Thanks a lot again for all the help!