Help with nap timings - 6months

[Mummy1982]

Hi

My little boy is 6 months on 27th march - we are just starting out with a baby whisperer routine as we seem to be a bit all over the place with naps etc with early waking occurring. My little boy can self settle but is quite hard to read when he is tired, if he is undertired he will protest when being put on and scream quite a bit but there seems to be a fine line between him being UT and OT.

I've been working on a 2hr 45-3hr awake time for the last couple of weeks but it's been a bit hit and miss, some days we get a 45 min nap only for first nap and other times we get 1.5-2hrs.

We don't dreamfeed just let him wake when he's hungry - he generally always wakes between 1-2am, recently he has woken around 5, has a chat for 15-20 mins and then resettles (most days) to 6-6.30ish.

General routine is

Wake - 6.30
Eat -7
Sleep 9.20 put down ready for 9.30 - sometimes get 45 mins other times longer

This is when it starts to go around as then it's hard to know when naps should be

If get 45 mins, put down at 1, then do a short cat nap
If 1.5 hours, put gown around 1.45-2 and then I'd get 1.5 hours again, usually go to bedtime. However I'm not sure how long I should give between last nap and bedtime.

Sorry for the ramble post - I feel a bit lost at the moment!

[creations]

Hello and welcome to BW forums

It sounds like you're doing really well

A couple of things come to mind
- have you looked at the level of stimulation on different days?  My LO was very "active" (as much as they can be at 6 months!) and wanted lots of stimulation during his A time, he liked to be "doing" things right up to his nap time. If I tried to keep things lower key or increased the length of the wind down at all he wouldn't be happy about it and hadn't had enough stimulation to tire him out for a good sleep.  Other LOs don't sleep so well after too much stimulation - perhaps you could look at your morning activities over a week and see if there is a pattern to the stimulation level and his sleep length?

- you are using an A time of 2hr 45 - 3hrs. It could be that the 15 min difference is effecting how well he sleeps. 15 mins difference is huge to a little baby and can be the difference between OT and UT.  Perhaps check your records to see how long he slept with 3hrs and see if it was longer.  2hr 45 could be leading to UT naps (45 min) instead of long naps.  If this is the case you will need to encourage the longer A time even if he shows sleepy signs...you can go slow on getting him ready for sleep to delay.

- you could also try a W2S on that first nap for a few days, here's a link:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
have a look at naps option 1.  It could be that your LO has learned to fall asleep independently but not yet learned how to transition from one sleep cycle to the next and only does this on his own sometimes instead of every day. The W2S can help to establish a habit so LO learns to sleep a long nap daily.
It's also a useful method if you are unsure if he will sleep a short or long nap, you can go before he usually wakes and instead of starting the shush/pat immediately you can hover a hand above him in readiness, then if you see him transition (it is normal to come out of sleep move a bit and go back into sleep) you can leave the room without helping but if he looks like he is not falling back to sleep you are ready to begin helping right away. This means he stays more relaxed and the attempt to extend the nap may be more successful as he hasn't had to wake fully to cry out for you.

However I'm not sure how long I should give between last nap and bedtime.

Not longer than the usual A time in the rest of the day. if naps have been short then I'd reduce the last A time.  If the last A time comes after a CN I would reduce the last A time. If the last A time comes after a good long restorative sleep I'd give a full A time.

Hope this helps.
If you are not jotting down the routine through the day I would suggest you do so as this helps to highlight the slight differences in A times or stimulation etc and could help you (or us) see a pattern where you might  not expect one.
let us know how you get on.

[Mummy1982]

Great, thank you for your response, will definitely try those things

[Mummy1982]

Hi, things have been going really well with naps, pretty much getting 1.5 hour naps after 2.45-3hr A time.

However I've noticed 2 things start happening over last few days -

When I put DS down in cot he cries - I think it's a protest cry rather than OT as I've tried varying times between 2.45-3hr and it happens every time although some times he cries for 5 mins and other times 10. If I offer the dummy (which we rarely use only if he seems very upset he settles very quickly)

Also he has started waking at night earlier, we don't dreamfeed but he used to wake up between 1.30 and 2.39 but now he's getting closer to 12-12.30 - we introduced solids 2 weeks ago as he was looking hungry and he eats 3 times a day as well as 4 x 8oz bottles in day. I offer him a bottle at 12.30 but only takes 4oz and doesn't re-wake until morning. I'm wondering if I should leave him to see if he settles?

[creations]

Are you still needing to extend the 45 min naps to make to the 1hr 30 or is he doing this pretty much every nap by himself?

The crying just before nap can be a bit of OT/OS (over tired/over stimulated) or UT/US (under tired/under stimulation) - did you have a look at the pattern of A times and stimulation levels just prior to the naps where he is protesting more?
Introducing solids can also have a big impact on sleep, disturbing naps with gas/wind or even making LO more tired due to the level of stimulation with new foods and experiences and the physical effort of eating.  It can alter the suitable A time so bare this in mind too.  You may not be able to totally avoid OT/OS but it may help you notice his needs by just knowing it can effect them.

I would continue feeding at night. It looks like he is just bringing that night feed earlier himself and reducing it. He could naturally drop it without any help but it is quite normal for there to still be a feed at this age so I wouldn't rush to drop it.

[Mummy1982]

He's doing the long naps himself, I'm not needed to resettle which is good. I hadn't thought of tracking the a time and the crying so will do that. Interestingly today he had 3 hours a time but was fed at about 2.25hrs and cried for a good 10 mins and then only got a 35 min nap. I might change his wind down to include a short story in his room before putting down too.

Ok I won't rush to get rid of night feed - I don't mind doing it just thought it was odd that it had got earlier!

[creations]

That nap sounds like it could have been OT or OS even though you got him to sleep at the 3hr mark.

Great he's doing those long naps himself!

[Mummy1982]

Ok, more advice if possible! I feel like it's going to be a bit of trial and error,

Yesterday's routine was as follows

Wake up - 7 had milk
Solids - 8.15
Put down at 9.50, cried quite a bit but asleep by 10
Woke up - 11.45 had milk
Lunch 1.15
Put down for nap at 2.30 - only slept for 45 mins
Milk 3.45
Dinner - 5.00
Bed - 6.30 but must have talked in cot until 7.
Woke at 11.30 - had milk and put back in cot awake fell back to sleep after 20 mins
Woke at 4.50 (5.50 clocks adjusted) and would not resettle.

So a few things I'm thinking

Morning nap we got about right a time yesterday as we got a long nap bit afternoon nap was short - longer a time needed? Or could it be hunger as milk should be 7, 11, 3 and 7 but 11 and 3 interrupted by naps?

We didn't do a cat nap we just tried to do earlier bedtime but he was so wide awake and didn't even look tired? But I guess the early wake at 5 shows that he went too long? What a time should we do if only get 45 min afternoon nap before doing cat nap?

I still don't get why he's waking so early at night, 3-4 weeks ago he was going until 3am! But now he's waking earlierbin night, he is starting to stir again early morning - sometimes having another feed!

[Mummy1982]

I guess he's still too young to have a morning nap of an hour and then a longer afternoon nap?

[creations]

He is too young for 1 shorter nap and 1 longer nap really - although some low sleep needs LOs do end up doing something like this.

I would try for both A times before the naps to be the 3hrs as a standard routine for 6 months.  Maybe try the W2S on the second nap if the first nap is now steady at 1.5hr+ each day.  If you can extend nap 2 nights should be a little easier.

The night feeds could be linked to a GS or to the solids being introduced.
Are you giving water or milk after the solids?  Some LOs like to finish off their solids meal with milk so perhaps try that.
Another thing which could impact on nights and hunger is having dinner - you could drop the dinner solids (reintroduce later) so that he is properly hungry for his milk and fills on milk instead, which could help see him through the night like he was previously. Like I said a night feed is normal so this isn't about actively dropping a NF but rather just making sure that the day calories are the best they can be.

What a time should we do if only get 45 min afternoon nap before doing cat nap?

When you move to 2 naps it is really hard to fit in a third nap/CN if one of the other naps is short, just because you start getting near BT.
It may be easier to try to extend nap 2 and if unsuccessful go for EBT. You likely need to start the BT routine almost right away after giving up on extending. Something like:
S 2.45 - 3.30 (45 min try to extend)
try to extend for 30 - 40 min
4.00/4.15 stop extending, move on.
A this A time counts from nap wake up, 3.30pm  and needs to be no longer than 3hr max, ideally shorter, say 2hr 30 (due to short nap)
feed, bath, pjs, wind down and BT feed
BT aim for sleep at 6pm (and no later than 6.30pm)

hope this helps

[Mummy1982]

Hi, I'm back again! Naps set to be going ok, the afternoon is a bit hit and miss but I have found that he prefers a catnap and later bedtime if he has a short sleep rather than early bedtime. Mornings are starting to creep earlier again though - was getting 6.30 now back to 5.45 - wonder if a slight push in a time is required again? Maybe just 5 mins.

Tried an experiment with the NW - took the solids down to just 1 meal a day but varied it to lunch and dinner time and he woke up at 3am, yesterday he had solids at lunch and dinner, took sane amount of milk in day and woke up at 12.30 - makes no sense!

[creations]

Mornings are starting to creep earlier again though - was getting 6.30 now back to 5.45 - wonder if a slight push in a time is required again?

Some times earlier waking is due to OT before BT. If you are sure the A time wasn't too long before BT and that the naps were reasonable that day and he also wakes earlier then, yes, an A time increase could be needed before the first nap.

[Mummy1982]

Ok so we're back to 45 min naps, you think you've cracked it and then it all goes down hill again!

Last couple of days have looked like this

Awake - 6.30
E - 7
Put down for nap 9.25 - asleep by 9.30/9.35
Awake after 45 mins at latest - no resettling, wants to get up!

E - 11
Solids - 11.45

Put down for nap at 1, asleep by 1.15. Sometimes we get 45 sometimes we get 1hr 30 - it doesn't seem to matter what we e been doing beforehand as to how he sleeps.

Generally we are needing a cat nap again to get bedtime at 7ish. I can't do early bedtime as I hVe another child to sort out. It's frustrating as we were just getting to a 2 nap day and now we are back on 3!

Should I push that first a time by 15 mins? He's now 6 1/2 months old. Compared to my first son who was taking 2 x 1.5-2hr naps at this age he doesn't seem to want much sleep!

[Mummy1982]

Today so far has been

6.15 - wake
9.20 asleep
10.05 - awake and talking to self happily

1.05 - put down
1.15 - asleep
2.00 - awake and talking happily then cries as wants to get out

Will have to do another sleep but I feel totally lost on what I should be doing nap wise - thought he was UT but is it OT?

Maybe I should aim for short morning nap and longer afternoon nap?

[creations]

Hi there. sorry you didn't get a reply, I've got a bad back and was unable to get on-line for over a week.

How are things now?