Author Topic: 6Weeks old - what to do with nap backlog and help with getting baby to sleep pls  (Read 3035 times)

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Offline newbiem0m

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Hi
We just started sleep training and I'm having a tough time with the routine since we started. I'm looking for some clarification and guidance for what to do.

Background:
My baby is 7 weeks and 5 days but in sleep weeks it's only 6 weeks and 3 days.
Going to sleep at night is a challenge, but once she gets going, going back to sleep after night time feed is no issue.
My current issues are with naps and getting her to sleep since she's less then 4 months and can't do pick up and put down.
Many times we find that the moment we put her down, no matter how sleepy she is, she'll open her eyes wide. Sometimes she'll instantly cry.
If i put her into the crib when she's fully asleep she'll stay asleep.
She use to have tummy pains but those are now resolved since she has been able to sleep on her back if she goes to bed asleep.
I'm pretty sure she's the spirited baby as she's very talkative, likes to look around, and even when we walked her to sleep she would fight it b/c she wants to look around.
Since we just started this, the moment we see her yawn we try to start preparing her to sleep by going to our room, swaddling her, saying it's time to sleep over and over and turning on the fan.
My baby also feeds super fast, we're only breastfeeding now but even when she had bottles she can finish it all in less then 10 mins...
My letdown is fast so I can go from rock hard to soft in 10 mins.....I've tried the silicon suction cup to drain before and i can get 40ml in 5 mins....So even though she's eating fast I know she's eating a lot in volume.

My husband is doing the 2 days of training right now, his method is swaddle, say the mantra "sleep sleep time" with some shhhhh over and over while he bounces her up and down if she cries.
He only pats very gently on her back or shoulder.
At night if she's super fussy and no matter what we do she can't sleep and fussy and cries he lets her cries a little to tire her out but he's in front of her patting her but she's still crying...Picks up to stop her crying after couple of mins.
I don't think this is any different then me doing shush and pat her in the crib over her crying....he just does it outside the crib.

Before starting training I was told by lactation consultant that the baby is full when she passes out from eating so generally that's how she would sleep.
Worked great when she had no awake time.
When she started having awake time I would do anything to get her to sleep including walking her in a baby carrier and keep on carrying her so she stays asleep

Questions:

1. Shh-pat - At what point in time am I supposed to pick her back up after doing shush pat when she's in the crib over her crying?  Since Pick up and put down over stimulates a spirited baby, wouldn't picking her up while shush patting not work? But at the same time I can't seem to calm her at all with it. How long should I do it before I pick her up? Will she develop a fear of the crib is I keep on trying to shush pat her while she's in the crib?
The Shh-pat only worked for me once while she's in the crib b/c she was already sleeping and woke up to cry and i was able to get her back to sleep.
It hasn't worked when it's straight from no sleep to sleep.
If we do shush-pat over the shoulder, at what point do we put her in the crib? What do we do if she cries the moment we put her down.
I found the book really really confusing in regards to this since PU/PD doesn't work for young babies but we're suppose to pat and shush and pick up if they're crying but at the same time we need to get them to learn to sleep on their own.

2. Are we putting her into the crib too late for her to learn how to sleep? My husband likes to try to get the baby in almost sleep state then put her into the crib. Her eyes are still open slightly so she knows she's going in. But she's almost to lala land. If she doesn't cry then she would just drift off with some more patting. I thought as long as she knows she's going into the crib and then drift off she is learning how to sleep...is that wrong? I thought we're helping her to learn how it feels.

3. Sleep backlog - What happens when your baby is really tired, fighting sleep and don't get the amount of sleep they're supposed to before the next feed and creates a backlog? I also know she needs sleep because she's really tired and passing out when eating and she keeps on yawning.
For example this is what happened today.
7:06am feed - 12 mins
7:18-8 Wake time where we talked and she pooed and we changed diapers until 8am
She yawned so we worked on getting her to sleep
8:16AM sleeping - 31mins - my husband's version of calming her to sleep
8:47 Wake up crying, pick her up, burped her, pat her back to sleep
8:53 sleep for 12 mins fusses and wakes up for 22mins
9:28 goes back to sleep for 26 mins
~~~~ total nap time 1hr 9 mins. Very tired when she wakes up for feed.
10AM Feed for 10 mins - couldn't get her to eat anymore since she's falling asleep no matter what I do
Moved her to downstairs, tried to keep her awake but she kept on nodding off. Couldn't even burp. I tried burping and she falls right to sleep on my shoulder. I tried moving her, talking to her for a while, making lots of noise but she dozed off.
10:21AM put her into crib since she's out and no matter how much noise she's not waking. Sleeps for 52 Min
11:13 AM wakes up and has a pretty good awake time. played a bit, talked, yawned around 12 so we tried to help her sleep again.
12PM Fussied a lot, kept crying, husband does his sleep routine
12:22pm sleeps for 15 mins, for the whole 15 mins I was patting her to keep her sleeping, she was restless with a couple of startles and wide eyes but at the end of 15 mins wouldn't sleep. Sounded like she was hungry...close enough to 3 hours so I fed
~ total nap time 1hr 7 mins, very tired again since she keeps falling asleep while feeding.
12:47 feed for 15 Mins until she wouldn't eat and milk was just dripping out the corner.
1:03 short awake time since she kept on falling asleep on me
1:09 gave up and let her go into the crib to sleep
1:10 startled wide awake from noise so we took the opportunity to do her awake time. Started yawning again around 12:45 husband takes her to go sleep.
1:09 asleep but on her dad, apparently every time he laid her down anywhere she cried. He felt bad that she wasn't sleep and so behind in sleep that when he was trying to put her to sleep and she fell asleep he continue to hold her.

So what do I do when she's backed up on sleep time?
Can I let her sleep more then 2 hrs during the day? the book said no. But if i don't then she doesn't get her 5 hrs during the day.

She's so backed up already so she's over tired. If I continue to try shush pat and it doesn't work or she cries her head off every time we put her on flat surface then she'll have even more backed up sleep.

I know we're supposed to persist but if I persist she won't get sleep so I don't know what to do.

Please help.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 18:40:27 pm by newbiem0m »

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Hello and welcome to BW forums :)

Your description sounds similar to the first 5 or so weeks with my DS. I had been trying to put him down for sleeps since day 1 really but it's normal for little babies to want to sleep on their parents so it is a long and gentle process to get there.

Whilst the PUPD (pick up put down) method is for older babies, as you said, there is a little confusion around it. From memory in the books Tracy calls shush/pat PUPD too because you do pick up when baby is crying and put down when calm. The difference with the full on PUPD method (for older babies) is that there is some time constraint in how long you hold and some adaptations for age, including not picking up but just putting down if baby sits up. With a young baby there is NO time constraint on how long you hold or how long you continue you literally hold for as long as needed, try to put down (and continue shush/pat in cot) and pick up again for as long as needed if baby cries.
In these early days it is about gently teaching LO she can sleep on a firm flat surface laying down rather than in arms or over your shoulder - getting her down at all is a step in the right direction.
It really does take time, shush/pat isn't a magic method which makes baby sleep, it is a method of reassurance and comfort which can be done in arms and continued in the cot so that she slowly slowly learns she is safe and you will always return when needed.

What my DP and I found possible was a very gentle movement towards having LO sleep on our lap in a horizontal position but relatively hands off (using shush/pat during the falling to sleep part) or on a blanket or pillow right next to our lap, touching, and keeping a still hand on (increasing firmness or starting shush/pat as needed to keep him asleep).  Either of these involve staying with LO throughout the entire nap, they both involve increasing and reducing shush/pat through the nap as needed, but they both involve LO learning that mummy/daddy is right there, even if LO is sleeping flat by the side or on the lap rather than "in arms" or "over shoulder". It is a small step towards putting down in a cot.
I also found I could more often get LO to sleep and stay asleep if I put him on the floor by me on a folded blanket, staying with him as long as needed but it also meant I could nip off for brush my teeth or get a drink or bite to eat!  You must not leave LO on a sofa or chair or pillow, but flat on the floor on a blanket should be okay and feels similar to the cot mattress so it is another step towards learning how it feels to sleep on that flat still surface.
There is a description here from a FAQ on regaining trust (I am not suggesting in any way you have lost trust, it's just a useful description. I would not use a pillow though for such a young baby, replace with blanket, stay with LO for safety):
Quote (selected)
3) Start with the first nap of the day.  At the first sleepiness cue start your wind-down.  Swaddle and Shh Pat your child and when they are calm instead of putting them in the crib put them on a pillow on your lap.  Tracy suggests a firm standard size pillow.  Sit this your back against a wall for support.  Let your child know you are there and will be there to help them sleep.  When they have fallen asleep (20 minutes atleast) uncross your legs and let the pillow plop slowly and carefully on to the floor.  Stay sitting next to the pillow.  For the next week atleast stay next to your child while she sleeps.  This is a sacrifice that you make to regain your child's trust.

4) The second week do the same wind-down but put the pillow on the floor for your child to fall asleep on, not your lap.  Again stay with your child while they sleep through naps and nights.

5) The third week do the same wind-down but put the pillow in the crib.  When you lay your child down put your hand on them so they know you are still there.  For 3 days stay by their side until they are in deep sleep.  On the fourth day remove your hand while staying beside the crib while your child is sleeping.  Three days later leave the room when your child has gone into deep sleep but if they cry for you go to them IMMEDIATELY.

6) The fourth week you should be able to put your child down in the crib without the pillow.  If not, start again from the previous step.
 
from this FAQ
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=126141.0

If you do continue to put her in the cot (or when you move to cot after a period of sleeping on lap/floor by you) stay with hands on shush/patting for the whole nap if necessary. Gradually you can reduce the shush/pat.
You can begin by shush/patting in arms until fully asleep, put down and continue for a minimum of 20 mins (or full nap)
then move on to putting down drowsy but again shush/patting all the way to sleep and an additional 20 mins (or full nap)
at every stage you can pick up if baby is crying and start again in arms
Sometimes when baby is down they start to cry but are so close to sleep that if you put your hands on as though to pick up but barely lift their weight off the mattress they nod off, just put straight back down, continue to keep hands on either still and firm or patting for 20 mins.

You asked about shush/pat over the shoulder and when to move to cot - you can bring LO gently down from shoulder to horizontal sleeping in arms as a mid-step. The movement from should to cot is quite a big move and may disturb some LOs.  Instead alter the way you wind down over time, shoulder patting, then horizontal patting then patting in the cot.  I discovered with my DS very early on that he needed his "seven mile stare" to be with the same view point every single nap. He had fixed onto a spot behind my shoulder when I was sitting on the sofa so anywhere else he wouldn't relax...to change this I had to be persistent and do the wind down in a different place, standing right next to the cot so that his view point was consistent but I was close to the cot to get him in without a big change in position moving from sofa to cot etc.  Not long after this I got him down before the seven mile stare so that his view from in the cot became the focal point - and he would stare at the same place every nap and if he woke mid-nap he stared again at the same spot and it helped him know where he was. I think Tracy said something about this in the book, babies needing to fall asleep where they will wake so that they are not suddenly disoriented by the change. It was true for my LO.

If she is sleeping longer than 2hrs then certainly make sure she is awake and feeding at/by 3hrs. She might sleep 2.5hr and wake naturally, I see no harm in this and do not see it confusing her day/night but I wouldn't go past a feed time by very long.

I hope this helps to answer some of your questions and clear up a bit of the confusion.
It is a very gradual process and no quick fixes but you'll get there.


Offline newbiem0m

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has shush pat not work before?
i find that once she gets going even in my arms i can't calm her with it. she continues to cry no matter how loud i shush or how i pat
the only thing that can calm her is tto also add in motion

This morning i stayed with her for 21 mins after she first nodded off. right when i stopped patting at 21 mins she woke up and was pretty inconsolable. Even when i wasn't putting her down, if she nodded off 2 mins later she'll just open her eyes and cry again.
It seems like she was in a state i couldn't do anything to calm.
I finally gave in and fed her a little early and let her sleep since she was so tired. slept for 1.5hrs on the bed with me since i fed her side lying. So i don't think she has issues falling asleep horizontal if she's put to sleep by something like milk.
maybe she doesn't like me anymore or maybe i didn't give her enough time to stretch and wake up before moving her.
Wen she woke and i brought her with me so i can heat up food she wouldn't look at me and when she did she cried. i was so sad i ended up crying.

she ended up falling asleep again after looking at things for 22mins walking in my arms.
I wonder if her wonder leap started early week 8 starts in 2 days.

I also wonder if i'm doing the pat wrong.
The only way i was ab;e to get her to sleep with the pat is if it basically shakes her.
I read some people have to pat really hard like thumping
I tried that but now i find if i pat in a certain way but not too hard it shakes her and i think for her it's almost like bouncing or moving so she likes it and sleeps.

When babies go through leaps and spurts can we take a break and hold baby to sleep?

I'm beginning to think i'm trying too much at once with her.
from no routine to trying to get her to sleep on her own
maybe i should get her on a routine first and help her to sleep no matter how then work on sleeping on her own after

Offline newbiem0m

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I just tried her afternoon nap (third nap of the day) with the suggestion to just hold her to sleep on my lap.
The moment we hit 20 mins she woke up even though I continued to do exactly what I was doing besides the shush since she fell asleep.
The hold was the same, I was still patting and gently rocking...I don't know why she woke up.

Once again she cried and wouldn't let me put her back to sleep even if I rock, shush and pat etc.
I had to stand up and walk around and bounce to calm her
The moment I stop she cries.

I don't understand why she can't get into that deep sleep during naps unless I let her sleep after she eats.
Is it b/c we're just starting this new routine where she has activity after feed instead of sleep right away?

Once we get her to go to sleep at night she's able to sleep for 3-5 hours.
My issue is getting her to sleep without props and even with props for naps besides carrying her in a baby carrier or after feed.
Those are the only 2 things I've had worked for a nice long nap.


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Oh dear, I'm so sorry you had such a difficult day.
Please please do not think for a moment that your baby does not like you - she loves you, you are her world.
Babies do sometimes just cry and cry, it is their only way to communicate and it sometimes feels like there is nothing we can do about it, just be with your LO and let her know you are there for her no matter what.  Although days like this are very difficult, tiring and emotionally hard, you are continuing to build a bond with your LO and whilst you hold her and support her through her difficulty sleeping she knows that you love and care for her.

Sleep training takes a lot of time and effort, it is not a simple case of shush/patting and it works. It is a gradual process, especially with a young baby.
If you feel you are not ready for this right now you might prefer to hold off on sleep training for some weeks and return to it at a later date when you feel more ready.  You could still continue with the EASY routine even if you didn't start sleep training now.

My LO didn't really like to be patted. Initially it seemed to sooth him but I realised eventually it wasn't so great for him. I rocked in arms for the wind down and then when in the cot I used a firm hand on him to gently rock, a very slight motion, very small movements but reasonably rapid, it reminded me of the motion in a car. This sounds similar to what you are finding works better, so perhaps try this very slight movement with a firm hand?

You might find it easier in these early days to lay down with your LO as you described on the bed, putting a little distance between you both but keeping your hands on her to provide the comfort and slight movement.  Do remember you must stay with LO if you are on a bed rather than her being in a safe sleeping area such as a cot.

You might also like to look at Pantlely's no-cry-sleep solution methods, we have some info here:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52857.0
There are descriptions of how you can slowly and gently stop feeding to sleep and stay with your LO, then slow gentle steps towards sleep training.  These methods work very well with the BW methods which is why we often refer to them.

Another method for wind down you might find helpful is Dr Harvey Karps 5 S (swaddle, side, shush, swing, suck), again many of us on the forums have found Karps methods for very young babies useful and can work well with BW methods.  I saw Karp on a TV show calming a line of crying babies in seconds, it seemed like magic, the memory stayed with me for years until I had my DS.  There are videos on-line of how to do the five "s" method (you use as few "s"s as possible to help baby calm and sleep but use more when needed).  His method also includes a very small slight rocking, again a bit like being in a car.  I used this with my DS when he was new born and then combine Karp and BW methods when I introduced EASY routine at 4-5weeks.

If you are finding this all too much please do not feel that you must sleep train right now. Lots of people choose to wait until baby is older and that's fine.  There is no guilt in holding your baby for sleep or feeding to sleep, this is a natural way for your baby to be cared for.  Your health and well being is more important than sleep training, so only take on what you feel ready for.
We will be here whether you decide to sleep train right now or at a later date...

gentle hugs. I hope you have a better day today.


Offline newbiem0m

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Thank you for more information.
I think we might be trying too much at once at a pretty bad week if week 8 is a mental leap week.

I think we'll try working on getting an EASY routine going and then try to teach sleep. We basically went from doing whatever the baby wants to trying to put her on routine and getting her to sleep in the crib awake but groggy all in one go...maybe it was too much.
I read one suggestion to try the awake by groggy with the first nap of the day and just keep doing that 1 for training purposes at this age.

I want to do that and develop a routine but what can I do for sleep routine if my baby fights the swaddle.
I can't even swaddle her and trying to will make her agitated.
I want to swaddle her b/c i noticed that when she startles she'll wake but if i hold her arms to her chest she'll sleep through a startle...but it makes it hard when I try to swaddle her it works her up.

Also, My baby goes from happy looking around/talking to yawning and super fidgety in a flip of a switch. One min she'll be happy walking to me, then she'll start to yawn and cry and kick and legs and arms around.
I was worried I'm over stimulating her b/c she's fidgety but maybe I'm not if she can't nap for more then 30 mins unless I'm holding her.

The only way for her to nap for an hour or more is when I hold her....If she's in the crib at 20 mins or 30 mins she'll wake up.
Is she UT even if she's yawning?
I thought she was tired b/c she yawned so she needed sleep.

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At this age the sleep cues from baby tend to be reliable (an older baby can start to yawn with boredom and needing a change in activity) and it is true that for some they go from happy to tired in a beat.
A time is around 1hr 15 but if she is tired before that you can go ahead and start a nap.

There's a FAQ here about the aussie swaddle, maybe have a look at that, the poster said she thought her baby hated swaddling until she used this method:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=1439.0
Or perhaps try one of the swaddle blankets, such as the woombie or gro swaddle.  I haven't used them myself, you could start a new thread to ask others which swaddle they found the best or google for swaddles.  They are like sleep sacks.  Easier to get baby in as they are shaped and you don't have to physically wrap baby up.

If she's in the crib at 20 mins or 30 mins she'll wake up.
Is she UT even if she's yawning?
Babies know if they are put down, the feeling of their body on the mattress is different to being held so when they notice they are in a different place they can come all the way out of sleep to see what happened. This is very normal in the early days of sleep training.  Perhaps try the method I posted before where you do several days on the floor in arms then slowly down to your lap on a blanket and then slowly onto the ground.


Offline newbiem0m

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For the 20 to 30 min wake up in crib she would have been there for over 10 mins. It wasn't a startle wake up from being put into bed.

I'm wondering if she's UT because she becomes super fidgeting when she yawns. Any suggestions for how to tire her out.

Also after that 1 good night where she woke up at 7am etc I noticed her sleep after get 3am feed to be super restless. She'll spend most of the time kicking and grunting and moving
I thought it was because she's having a bowel movement but I don't know if that's right any more.
Just today she decided to scream at 5:45an after who knows how long of kicking in her sleep. I realized she was awake and I'm not sure for how long. I fed her since she's crying but it seems like she's treating this as start of day even though she only went to sleep at 11pm and really haven't had even 10hrs of sleep.
I changed her diaper since it's super wet so I thought maybe this is the cause of kick up but she decides to stay up and kick around. She yawns but I can't get her back to sleep as she continues to kick around.
I Don't think she's UT at this point since she didn't get enough night sleep. But she's still super fidgety. Not sure what to do. I know if u bring her to bed with me and let her sleep tummy down on me she'll stop kicking and sleep.... But I really need get to sleep properly

Any ideas?

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Young babies often jolt in their sleep. If they are on you (as you describe with co-sleeping) chances are they will be soothed by being with you and go back to sleep. If they are not on you and haven't learned to stay asleep or go back to sleep on their own yet the jolts wake them up.  Jolts are quite normal.  Sometimes OT LOs jolt more but you can't always avoid them, it's not always OT.
Here is a link which describes HTTJ (holding through the jolts, or on this thread it is called pressure through the jolts) the description is towards the end of the post so scroll down for it:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
Often swaddling helps to hold LO through the jolts but obviously at this point you have not found a suitable way of swaddling.

even though she only went to sleep at 11pm
What was the reason for going to sleep so late?  Could you post that day's EASY times from morning WU including all naps, nap attempts and how long naps were, how you tried to extend etc please?


Offline newbiem0m

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she went to sleep so late because she wouldn't go to sleep
We started at 7pm and she wouldn't go to sleep
I went through 2 feedings to finally get her to sleep
I'm beginning to think it's the wonder week hitting since it's week 8

My husband usually helps her to sleep when he comes home but these past couple of days he can't get her to sleep. Once she's on me she can sleep....
maybe once we're done this mental leap it'll get better
I just got hold of the book and she's definitely hitting some of the expected behaviour including sleep problems
E 5:47 for 13m including a small break
A Diaper changed, holding her in the dark since I wanted her to back to sleep
S 7:08am 1h56m nap
E 9:11 for 11 m
E9:32 for 7 mins on and off, i think she was more looking for comfort then actual eating
S 9:52am 52m
A woke up so i walked her around and talked to her in the living room, when she started to yawn i brought her back up
S 11:29 48m
E 12:29 until 12:44 with a small break inbetween
A Big poo, she self entertained while i ate and talked to her
S 1:53 41m
S 2:44 1h 54m (i put her into crib after an hour of carrying her in hopes she'll wake up to feed but she didn't)
E 4:49 22m
A diaper change, tummy time, talked and walked a bit
S 6:05 35m
E 6:55 7 mins this is us getting desperate to get her to sleep so we're trying to feed since she keeps on rooting
A 7:02 for 30 mins She was wide awake after this so we tried to tire her out, tried to get her to sleep again when she yawned
S 8:31 10m cried out for no reason, she was still sleeping in arms, wouldn't go back to sleep, kept on fussy and crying
E 9:04 for 14m
S 10:09 18 m in the baby carrier while I walked and sat down, all of a sudden cried out and woke up....
still working on getting her back to sleep

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Looking at your EASY it is not clear where "day" starts, what time are you identifying as WU (wake up for the day)?
The morning hours look like repeated cycles of sleeping and not awake for very long between, waking for long enough to eat, diaper change,and have a wind down back for more sleep.
I'm not seeing a clear A time until here:
S 11:29 48m
E 12:29 until 12:44 with a small break inbetween
A Big poo, she self entertained while i ate and talked to her
S 1:53 41m
it looks like she was awake for a clear A time from say 12.10pm - 1.53pm, a 1hr 40 min A time and then followed this with a good long nap of almost 2hr.
A 1hr 15
S 6.05pm CN 35 min (could be UT which may be why you found it hard to get her back to sleep, she was very awake)
A 6.40 - 8.30 1hr 50 likely OT by this point
S disturbed, 10 min
A 1hr 30
S 10.09pm again likely OT crying out after 18 min

I could be wrong but to me it looks your "day" is not beginning until gone lunch time.  This would also explain why there is a reluctance to sleep at a reasonable bed time and she is not really settling down for the night until 11pm or perhaps even later.
You mentioned in your first post that her sleep age is 6 wks, what is this based on?
To me it looks like she can likely do a longer A time than you think (1hr 20, maybe even 1hr 30) but that her day time cycles are starting too late in the day.
What do you think?


Offline newbiem0m

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She was awake after the 5:45am feed and wouldn't go back to sleep after an hour of waking up.
So i thought that would be the start of the day
Her WU varies since we can't get her to sleep at the same time every night.
When we first started this, we had wake up at 7am and 9 am...the 9am sort of messes things up.

If she's starting her day too early, what do you suggest we can do to start her earlier?
I thought as long as there's an hour A time including the feed it should be enough since her feed is only 10-15mins long.

She's only 8 weeks old this week, and she was born 1 week early so 7 weeks in sleep time based on the book.
The book said to calculate sleep age based on due date and not birth date if the baby was born early.

we're only starting the schedule, but I think we picked a bad week to do it.
She went to sleep fine the first 2 nights at 8pm which was reasonable.
Then after that she became fussy and clingy due to growth week...

How can we help her adjust to 8am or 7am WU?

Offline creations

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OK, I wouldn't have classed the 5.45 NF as WU time because you kept her in a dark room treating it as night time.  I would have done the same to be honest as that's too early to start the day (although mine was always an early waker which was just how he was).  If you write down the A times between each S they are very short from then up to lunch time 12.10, I think I worked out about 40 - 50 min (eg wakes 9.04 sleeps again 9.52. Wakes 10.44 sleeps again 11.29).  Whereas later in the day she seems to really "wake up" and has much longer A times.
It just looks to me like her night is extending half way into the day and then when you are trying to get her down for bed time she is still having her "day" so doesn't settle for night sleep until late (11pm and then treat from here until noon the next day as "night").

To help her adjust to a more regular day/night pattern you would need to keep each day-time A time to at least a full hour or more and have her in light during the A time, natural day light preferably.  Treat the awake times in the morning as day time with what you do, there isn't a huge amount you can "do" with such little babies but some songs, chatting, tummy time and activity in the A time will help her know that it is not simply a wake up to feed and wind down to sleep again.  In the second half of the day her activity looks more "active" with tummy time, chatting whilst you eat etc, whereas the first half of the day looks more like feeding, wind down for sleep, quiet walking to get her back off, comfort feeding, all things part of wind down and cues for sleep.  Do you see what I mean?
I could be wrong of course, it's just based on the notes and times you've given.

With longer more active A times in the morning hours she may at first seem too sleepy but she will need to get used to when day time is otherwise you'll continue to have those very late bed times. Some people wake baby at 7am regardless of when they last fell asleep as this starts the day and from here the routine can be put into place, initially with some clock watching to get on track.  Others prefer to wait for baby to wake even if that's 9am and start the day there.  it is up to you but I would suggest some degree of clock watching to extend those morning A times then plan on BT (ie night sleep) being 12 hours later.

hope this helps


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Thanks we'll try that.
Today she got up for fed at 7am but passed out no matter what I did to gently wake her.
But an hour later she woke up to poo and we stayed up for at least an hour before sleep so I hope we'll be ok tonight

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That sounds good.  It's okay if it isn't 7am every morning but really by 8 or 9am I would keep her awake for those full A times. Get some sun and fresh air if you can too, this will help to indicate day time to her.

The BT might not resolve right away on the same day, this could take a number of days for her to realise when WU and BT are to establish a routine of sleeping and eating cycles at night but sleeping eating and awake cycles in the day.