Author Topic: 8mo ongoing NWs  (Read 1783 times)

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Offline Rak10

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8mo ongoing NWs
« on: April 08, 2018, 18:27:16 pm »
Hi

I posted in General Sleep Issues forum 5 days ago but didnít get a reply yet.

I put lots of info in that post. Weíve had NWs & short naps always. Now as 2nd nap is getting longer EMW is creeping in as the once 11.5-12h night ends up 10.5h or less.

Routine:
WU 0645 but past 2 weeks 6.40, 6.20, 6.05 now 5.55 this week creeping earlier
E 0800 solids
A 3h15
E 1000 b/feed
S 10-10.45 = 45m 1sleep cycle wakes happy
E 1230 solids
A 3h15
E 1345 b/feed
S 14.00-15.00 usually 1 sleep cycle can be tired soon after waking
E 1600 may b/feed
E 1700 solids
E 1845 feed
A 4hrs+ if nap 45 mins
S 1900 bed

Then NW around 1230 every night.  Resettle by picking up. Past few nights has gone 9hrs til n/feed & may feed once again around 0530 to try to get lo to stay asleep

Night sleep was good only around 4 months going 7-8hrs then another 3. Maybe 4m sleep regression hit then had virus colds & now just wakes. Usually doesnít cry but is happy to be awake warbling away getting louder unable to self settle, gets worse the longer you leave him. Think 1 n/feed would be enough most nights.
In cot in same room as one of us as we are up so many times, ends up in bed with me by morning to keep quiet feeding but now isnít hungry just happy to be awake.

Are awake times ok for age? They are all quite long now as he is refusing CN. Not convinced NWs are OT as he was having 3 naps & no different.
He self settled so quickly at the mo at BT.  I canít always leave him to be noisy as it wakes DD1.
Any ideas on NWs would be much appreciated, it feels like we are stuck in this cycle.

Offline becj86

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2018, 00:33:01 am »
Hi :)
Sorry you haven't had a reply as yet.

WU 0645 but past 2 weeks 6.40, 6.20, 6.05 now 5.55 this week creeping earlier
Great that you noticed this trend, this is classic of a need to increase that first A time, as is the 45min length of the nap and the long happy warbling NW in the early hours of the morning. At this age, ideally there'd be one longer nap of ~1.5hr+ and a catnap, so maybe increase by 15min every 3-4 days until you get a long nap that sticks around then work on the next A time.

I wonder if he's unable to resettle himself at night because he's not going to sleep independently - looks like you're feeding him to sleep for naps. I think he's maybe self-settling so quickly at BT because he's crashing after the longest A time following two short naps.

Offline NattysMom

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2018, 01:08:30 am »
Hello,

I totally agree with becj86, increase that first Awake time!

Mine was doing 3-3.25h at 7mo and by 9mo we were at almost 4h In the morning.  Our AT would Be longest in the morning and get shorter (3h) closer to BT. The AT before BT seems quite long. We had 40-45m short naps for so long. Once I realized that I needed to increase the morning AT the first nap finally got longer. I preferred the longer morning nap and afternoon catnap but if the first nap didnít go long enough sometimes the second nap would be longer. Also the BF before nap probably makes him really sleepy when he really isnít. Itís hard when your AT and E time is so close.

Night wakings...mines 11mo and weíre still working on night weaning however itís taken extra long due to sicknesses. Mine for sure was wanting the nurse but not hungry, sheíd suck for 10 secs and be back to sleep! But she could self settle some of the time. I think it was just becoming a habit. If she wakes up and itís been less than 7-8hrs I donít feed. I just held her while she cried and offered water. The first night it took 2 hours. Second night was faster and after that only 5 mins. If she wakes up again, even if only an hour later and doesnít settle easily I nurse. Once I reduced the night feedings she ate so much better during the day. Now she only wakes once which is so much better than 3! I totally understand the bringing to bed with you! After waking up so many times itís just so much easier to be half asleep while they chat away! Hopefully heís sleepier with an adjusted daytime.

Good luck. 😊
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 01:22:18 am by NattysMom »
Rachel          ~ 🌷🌼 Natalie Aurora 💗 May 2017 🌼🌷 ~

Offline Rak10

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2018, 15:46:05 pm »
Hi becj86 & NattysMom

Thank you both for your super quick & helpful replies, very much appreciated.
Iíll work on pushing out 1st awake to try to get one longer nap. With DD1 I ended up cutting back 1st nap to lengthen 2nd. I guess it doesnít matter which as long as one is longer than 45m.

Becj86 in your 2nd para you sum up the situation precisely! I feed pre a nap & he is so drowsy when put down & yes, exhausted by bt. Itís a bit of a vicious circle when I try to feed him anywhere other than a quite dark bedroom & he is hugely distracted & wonít feed well. If I sorted the NWs ideally iíd Feed soon after waking. He is rapidly dropping feeds, seems to prefer solids.

NattysMom you are right that the feed pre naps makes him super sleepy. Would you feed after naps? Hard to fit it all in! Thatís good progress to have 1 NF at 11 months. I have relied on nfs to resettle at night whereas now he doesnít need many feeds he just thinks itís play time when I try! I send my OH in for the early NWs like 1230 so we go 7 even 9hrs til the 1st feed but it all deteriorated from there, lots of bad habits to work on! I wouldnít let him cry & he disturbs DD1 esp in the early morning. Iíll work on awake time & perhaps change a feed to try self settling in the day as I donít plan to feed perhaps beyond a year.

Thanks again for your help & sharing experiences!


Offline becj86

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2018, 23:13:17 pm »
I'd probably try feeding still in his room when he just wakes and see if that helps. Sometimes with LOs who get distracted while having milk, it can be good to do a topup - in your case, you could probably offer milk as a drink with solids. Just some suggestions if you want to move away from feeding just before sleep.

Offline Rak10

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2018, 08:03:45 am »
Thanks for these ideas which I will try as Iíve just about ended up with 3 feeds pre naps/bt + night feeds 2 maybe 3 to resettle around 5am so am keen to break up this pattern.

Offline Rak10

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2018, 19:14:27 pm »

Hi again

As an update when I pushed out the 1st nap itís nicely dealt with EMW & while he may wake at 5.30 he will go back to sleep again. Itís also cut out the hours of night warblings/ no more cot party. We get 11.5-12 hr nights. 

We did get a few longer naps but not consistently. Then they tailed off & for the past week back to 40min naps, 2 a day evenly spaced out. He is tired & definitely needs 1 longer but has never consolidated naps just now & again.

The past few days weíve had 30m OT naps as he is stretched so much. I canít resettle him.

This is quite typical:

Wu 6.30
A 3 & 3/4hrs
S 10.15- 11.00
A 3.5 hrs
S 2.30 - 3.15
A 3.5 hrs
S 6.45

A few times Iíve done a baby grp & stretched 1st awake to 4h / 4h30 & often got a longer nap, again not always.

At 8.5 months should I push 1st awake more? Heís quite tired after 3.5hrs esp as we always get various NWs.

The hardest NW ( for us) is around 12.30. My  OH usually resettles him. Itís slightly improved and weíve gone a few times from 6.45 bt to 1am or 2am, the past few nights wake ups all evening but I suspect teeth. Then Iíll feed 2 times. I donít think he needs it. It seems quite habitual after heís had a good block of sleep that he wakes.

I am mixing up feeds before & after naps mostly, he prefers solids.

Nap wise Iíll feed him then always pick him up & shhhh Ďtime to sleepí put him down. He is so sleepy itís remains a prop. We can hold him for a short spell to get him to sleep if he isnít fed eg my OH. Iíve tried 5-6 times to put him down awake & he canít self settle. He messes around in the cot warbling away for 10, 20, 30 mins as long as Iíve left him. When I go in he will grin overexcited completely OT. So I donít see how I can do PU/PD for naps as he doesnít cry just thinks itís a funny game.

So I guess he isnít self settling for naps still & they have always been too short which might cause the ongoing NWs. We are surviving thanks only to increased awake times. Any more advice on what I could work on or try next would be really appreciated.


Offline becj86

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2018, 21:20:59 pm »
I am mixing up feeds before & after naps mostly, he prefers solids.
Sorry, I haven't read through properly and will do later today if I can. Just this leaps out at me - how much milk is he having during the day?

Offline Rak10

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2018, 05:20:36 am »
Hi

Feeds before both naps. Maybe after both. Also bed time then 2-3 in the night. He is nearly impossible to feed anywhere now apart from dark room as so distracted. He loves his food. He used to go 5.6 once 9 hrs before feeds in the night. I am sure he is not hungry & heís 10kg.
The past 5 nights heís woken every 2.5hrs!

Thanks x

Offline becj86

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2018, 09:25:21 am »
At this age, milk really should still be his main sustenance - its much higher in calories than the solids he'd be eating. What volume of milk is he having or are you BFing?

Being 10kg doesn't make him any more or less likely to be hungry than a 7kg baby of the same age.

If he's going from 6:45 BT to 12:30 first waking, I'd just feed and get back to bed. I'd also try to get milk into him first thing when he wakes in the morning, after each nap and at BT as a minimum, with milk as a drink at mealtimes. That will help get lots of calories into him in the day.

Here's a link with info re: why LOs wake in the night:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52878.0

I can't get past breastfeeding to sleep as a prop causing your short naps and your frequent NWs to be honest. I think that working on independent sleep is going to be the way forward for your family.

Offline Rak10

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2018, 19:09:17 pm »
Thank you for your quick & honest reply.

He is EBF & I canít stomach expressing this time so have done all the feeds. I was planning on a year so might introduce formula in the day as I did with DD1, he could have it with meals too. On reflection I think he has dropped too many feeds since introducing solids.

I know weíve reached a point where I need to break the feed to sleep cycle. I just donít know how. Our plan is to move the feeds around & do some holding to calm pre sleep then PU/PD. Could I try with naps & bt & early NWs or do I need to be consistent as he will need at least 1 night feed.

Is there any likely timescale for improvement like 1 week or 10 days or just stick at it?

Thanks again for your advice

Offline becj86

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2018, 21:24:49 pm »
He may well need a couple of night feeds until he's consistently moved his calories back to daytime.

There are a few ways to wean feed to sleep. None are easy or quick. Consider that for his entire life, this is how he's gone to sleep. Depending upon his temperament, it will take around a week probably before you see improvement, then just as you think you've succeeded, he will probably regress (babies are little scientists, experimenting to see if this new world order is here to stay) and the key is to be consistent through the regression with the same methods you used for training in the first place and you'll be through that in 2-3 days usually. Things will still go off the rails occasionally with development but should be smoother within a fortnight to a month.

Here's a link with some information re: gentle removal of breast feeding to sleep: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52857.0

Here is a link to "teaching sleep to babies over 6 months": https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85498.0
Our plan is to move the feeds around & do some holding to calm pre sleep then PU/PD. Could I try with naps & bt & early NWs or do I need to be consistent as he will need at least 1 night feed.
This is certainly a reasonable plan, made by sensible parents who know their baby best. You can try shush/pat before PUPD - PUPD is a method of last resort when shush/pat or a suitable variant has been used for at least 2 weeks with NO improvement. It can necessitate more night feeds as it takes a lot of energy for LO. WRT night feeds, I would suggest deciding before you go in at each NW whether you will feed or not. Feed immediately and get back to bed if you're going to feed. If you're not, don't feed until he's fallen asleep. This is incredibly hard but it will mean he has less reason to keep protesting and will learn faster that if mum doesn't feed straight away, he won't be fed and might as well sleep. I'd base feeding or not decision on two things:
1. Has it been 4hr since last feed? If yes, feed. - This timeframe you can increase for the long stretch of sleep as you get further through the process.
2. Can I stick at it? If you are exhausted and think you may well feed if he's awake still after 30mins, 1hr, 2hr, just feed - that is how you are most likely to be consistent.
When I did this with my DS, he was older than your DS and we'd fallen slowly into more NFs than I care to remember and he screamed for 3hr. He is an extremely persistent spirited child though. It only happened once and we did wean the NFs (he was >1yr old). I say this not to discourage, but to say I've been there, its tough and can be emotionally draining in the moment. That's why I say the "Can I stick at it" caveat to your decision re: whether to feed or not.

I'm happy to hold your hand as you go through this process. I think your routine is reasonable and everything else is in place so it should go relatively well.

Offline Rak10

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2018, 20:00:30 pm »
Thank you so much for this much detail. Iíve just re-read it & had a long conversation with OH to talk strategy.

Interestingly last night OH settled him to sleep and did so tonight very easily, I fed earlier before change, books, song etc. Also today for both naps I fed before then he settled within minutes me holding him. I only got 30m then 47m so he is probably falling asleep easily due to exhaustion. But tonight is the first night in about 5 that he hasnít woken after the 1st sleep cycle or for a few hours yet.

With DD1 I followed BW so carefully but would get upset if things didnít go the way I wanted. That said she is a super sleeper. With DS1 he had such bad wind I didnít put him down for the 1st 14 weeks & DD1 was so jealous, but I am still disappointed we have fallen into such bad habits. All everyone says is how tired he looks. Getting him to transition from 1 sleep cycle to the next for naps will be the challenge. Unlike DD1 He has an easy going temperament hence weíve got away with him being this tired all the time.

We can split the night and try it over the weekend and see how things go. I canít stand him crying plus the main concern is he will wake DD1 but I think he may respond well to shh/pat as he likes being on his side and it stops the arm flapping.

Thanks for the on-going support. The advice from the Health Visitor was that he is having a growth spurt hence feeding so much at night. I donít think itís that simple! Iíll read the links and about shh/pat again and do anything but feed to sleep with a view to slowly getting him to self settle, and post some updates. So far so good this evening! X

Offline becj86

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2018, 08:07:18 am »
Every baby is different, you do your best by each one you're given, that's all they can ask of you.

Great that OH can get him off to sleep so easily, that's a nice gentle way to get him used to a new routine without feeding to sleep.

Hope all is going swimmingly for your family :)

Offline Rak10

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2018, 19:09:40 pm »
Hi again

Itís been a week since I stopped feeding to sleep. Not as bad as I expected as we had a good routine and the awake times are ok. I started holding him and have moved to putting him down on his side calm and doing shh/pat, so we are getting there even if he isnít entirely self settling, it never takes long.

NWs have improved! 1st night no better, most nights waking around 1am and I feed as itís been long enough if the previous feed was around 6pm. One 11pm wake but easily resettled til 3am. OH will do the 1st part of the night then I take over after the 1st feed when I think I need to tackle another wake.

This is quite usual:
6pm feed
6.30-7 bt
1am bfeed one side settles immediately
3.30am wakes always after 2.5hrs, feed other side
5.15am wakes Bífeed to resettle then wu 6.10 or 6.30

So it would be good to knock out the middle feed or is that reasonable? One night I tried and he was awake for 2hrs not crying just awake. Even if I left it 30min he would be very awake.

Naps.
Initially the naps stayed at 40mins. Then I tried wake to sleep at exactly 30min for 1st nap and have been getting naps of 2h, 2h20, 1h30 the past few days. He is waking happy not crying, itís amazing! Do I need to do wake to sleep every time or could he get the hang of the longer nap himself?

So, some good progress, probably some more could be made x

Offline becj86

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2018, 03:37:17 am »
So with wake to sleep, keep doing it for 4-7 days then stop and see what happens. That should be enough that he's learned how to get through the transition and he's probably well out of the chronic OT now with that much of a sleep increase.

It is reasonable to knock out that 3am-ish feed. Id be tempted to get OH to see if he can resettle since he doesn't have tasty milk... another thing you could try is thinking about increasimg the first A time because if he's awake and happy for that long, he may need more A, especially now he is getting much more restorative sleep.

Offline Rak10

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2018, 06:55:57 am »
Last night 1st wake up was 3.30am, best ever!

Offline becj86

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2018, 08:20:58 am »
Yay! Glad things are improving for you :)

Offline Rak10

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Re: 8mo now nearly 10mo - update
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2018, 19:35:25 pm »
Hi

Things are now looking so completely different to when I posted at the start of the month, possibly need to be on the naps board.

Nights have improved beyond all recognition since doing shh/pat not feeding to sleep. It is the exception to get a NW before he wakes for 1st feed. This has got later to 3.30 often. We even had a sleep through to 5:20am - 10 hours!

I got some longer naps by doing wake to sleep now these have stuck on their own getting mostly 2hrs for first nap then second needs to be short.

He will be 10 months in 2 weeks. Iíd say he has quite low sleep needs. So now we have the longer nap once again EMW has hit with 5.20 wu, can sometimes briefly resettle.

So is the long nap too long / should I cap it?
It makes second nap harder to fit even a cat nap - is this the early signs of moving to 1, he is still pretty young for it but does long awake times.

Sample routine
5.20 wu, feed may briefly resettle
10-12 sleep - push awake to 10 or later
3.30 - 4 sleep - wake him at 4
7.15 bt

So night is too short, he is tired up to 1st nap

One day last week I went to a baby group and he slept at 10.40 for 2h20 so I pushed him thru til bt with another long awake of 5h30, he was ok. The next day he needed 1 long and 1 x 20 min cn. Today he was woken from long nap by DD1 after 1h50 at 11.50 and I tried from about 3-4 but refused second nap so had to push him from 11.50 to 6.10 bt. He was tired but ok, ate food fine etc.

So NW are good, nap is good but EMW means night is too short. And 2nd nap is very hit and miss meaning bt could be 6.15 or 7.15 or between.

Any thoughts appreciated on how to structure naps. DD1 wakes 6.20 so donít need massive change to wu. Anything after 6 is fine, pushing him to 11hrs night sleep plus.

X


Offline becj86

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2018, 22:37:41 pm »
It makes second nap harder to fit even a cat nap - is this the early signs of moving to 1, he is still pretty young for it but does long awake times.
Yes, it is the early signs of going to 1 nap but that doesn't mean you'll be there in the next couple of weeks, it usually takes months of this back and forwards. I've seen reasonably frequently a LO go to 1 nap around 10-11 months then going back to 2 naps a month or two later before really dropping to one nap completely.

Now, wrt naps... there are a few options:
1. You can keep going as you are
2. You can push the long nap later and APOP a CN of 20-30mins. That may help with the EW though his sleep total is reasonable and this would probably just shift BT that bit later to be more consistently 7:15-7:30 rather than sometimes being 6ish. When he's going to bed around 6pm, when is he waking for the next day? If that's 5:20 still, that actually is around 11hr night sleep. By APOP, I mean accidental parenting on purpose - you may not want to do this as you've just weaned feed to sleep and it could mean he goes backwards but its not something I would expect to happen.
3. You can do a short first nap. I did this for a while with DS. It can take some fiddling to get A times and such sorted because its quite individual but I ended up doing a normal length first A time, capped nap of 20-30mins, A time of 1.5-2hr which was miserable and I basically had to keep feeding him or changing activities every 10mins because he was TIRED then a long PM nap. It was hard. The good thing was though that he had 2 naps each day which gave me some predictability and I could just cap the AM nap shorter and shorter til I disappeared it and he went to one nap.

Offline Rak10

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2018, 20:22:35 pm »
Hi
Thank you for your quick and always helpful replies, your advice & support has been absolutely amazing to set me on the right path.
Yes I donít think he is ready for 1 nap but it is tricky to get a consistent routine when he is switching between 1 & 2.
Bt was 6.10 last night. He did perhaps his longest sleep ever of 10.5 hrs, amazing, til 4.40am then was ready to wake up but I did resettle him by holding him for a bit til 6 then didnít want to go for 1st nap until 10.45 and refused 2nd again. Early bt again.

Thanks for your ideas on naps
1. Having the good night sleep and long nap makes such a difference to me the early wake bothers me less now it is light in UK that early too.
2. Not sure I totally understand APOP here, yes he pretty much wakes at 5.20 now regardless of bt. So yes the early bt gives an ok night. Iíd prefer bt later as fits with DD1ís rather than 1 after the other. I know it is always changing at this age.
3. I am tempted to try this, I did it with DD1 cutting 1st nap down. Would you start with 30min or 20min? & stretch it less say 10am rather than pushing it so far as I do to get long one? Would it need a week or so to tweak and see if wu pushes later? My apprehension is not getting a long 2nd nap we went so long with 40min naps iím always fearing their return!
I know this phase will eventually change again.
Thanks so much again x

Offline becj86

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2018, 08:21:18 am »
2. Not sure I totally understand APOP here
Sorry, so basically a car nap or a pram nap or something where you know he will drift of reasonably easily and reliably and you can wake him after 20-30mins.

3. I am tempted to try this, I did it with DD1 cutting 1st nap down. Would you start with 30min or 20min? & stretch it less say 10am rather than pushing it so far as I do to get long one? Would it need a week or so to tweak and see if wu pushes later? My apprehension is not getting a long 2nd nap we went so long with 40min naps iím always fearing their return!
So I would probably start with 30mins then cut down to 20 and so on. Being woken after 30mins, I find will be enough to get baby through another couple of hours in the day and make the day longer without stopping them wanting another nap because they're still tired. WRT bringing the nap earlier, that's quite individual. My DS wouldn't go to sleep UT, so I didn't but some other people have had success bringing the first nap a little earlier and capping it. You'd probably have to give it a week to bed in before tweaking much as its a pretty big change from his current routine.

Offline Rak10

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2018, 21:11:15 pm »
Ok thank you, he is taking longer & longer to get that 2nd nap in, usually pushchair or sling works, car takes ages.
I am psyching myself up to move the naps around next week as have both this week (1/2 term) so wonít be able to fully focus! X

Offline becj86

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2018, 06:40:13 am »
Good call to wait til you can focus on it a bit more. All the best :)

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2018, 20:38:22 pm »

Hello
LO is nearly 12 months!
Looking back I did mostly nothing and let him do the longer morning nap and then a cat nap
We have had teeth that disrupted nights, chicken pox, more teeth.
Now he is pretty much on 1 nap. It seems to have stopped EMW. I worry I stretch him but he seems fine on it, just seems early on 1 nap at 11.5 months but there isnít room for 2.
Routine is generally
06.30 wu
11.30 - 2 nap
19.15 bt
NF around 04.45 can be tricky to resettle or takes an hour as so near wu time.

Itís quite long awakes but get at least 2hr nap sometimes 3.
He is still EBF but only takes a feed in the night and 1 before bed (not to sleep) then water in the day.
He is still pretty inactive just showing signs of wanting to try to crawl, he might get more tired when he moves more?
We never seem to get a good run of nights without wakings but the wakings are often teeth, cold etc. I think underneath he is ok and can do a decent long stretch.
Does this routine look ok?
X

Offline becj86

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2018, 09:11:49 am »
Looks absolutely fine, I think you're right in that he may need less A time once he's moving more, but if its working for him, stick with it. You could potentially move BT a touch earlier and that may (or may not) help with that long NW.

Offline Rak10

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Re: 8mo ongoing NWs
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2018, 20:00:43 pm »
Thank you as ever Bec. I am coming to the end of wanting to EBF so going to post on that board as my concern stopping is how it will affect the early morning wake.