Author Topic: 4.5 months old- extend the naps by nursing?  (Read 370 times)

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Offline foreignmom

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4.5 months old- extend the naps by nursing?
« on: April 12, 2018, 17:05:18 pm »
hello, I have a 4.5 old baby boy whose sleep was never good although I try to apply Easy from the beginning ( except feeding on demand for supply issues.he is ebf) Although he can independently falls asleep for naps and bedtime ( apart from whitenoise if you count that as a prop) His naps were usually short. I got advice from here to extend the A times and transition to 3 naps instead of 4 which was useful for some time but they got shortened again. he got so ot from short naps and cried all the time from otness that I got the habit of feeding back to sleep when he got up early from his naps. He almost always gets up at 37 min. ( whatever A time I try shorter or longer). If I feed him right away in darkened room he often goes back to sleep and can sleep for 1 hour or 1 and half hour.  I know it's accidental parenting but I can't extend by any other means and he is soooo cranky after short naps. which one is worse short naps or feed to sleep to extend? which one has a worse effect on general sleep?

Offline foreignmom

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Re: 4.5 months old- extend the naps by nursing?
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2018, 17:17:31 pm »
our easy on a good day:
wu and eat: 6.45
s: 9:00 ( wakes up at 37 min and extend by nursing now)
wu and eat: 10.30
s: 12.45 or 1 pm ( wake up 37 min extend by nursing)
wu and eat: 2pm
catnap: roughly 4.30
wu and eat:5 pm
 bedtime: eat and asleep at 7 - 7.30
I never feed to sleep initially going to sleep but I feed when he wakes up at night ( like three times a night)
I give top-up feeds in the middle of A times when he wants because if I wait for 3 or4 hours between the feeds my supply falls and he gets even more crazy.
on a bad day I can't extend the second nap and we do earlier catnap and early bedtime 6.30 pm.
Can you help me please?

Offline foreignmom

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Re: 4.5 months old- extend the naps by nursing?
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2018, 18:04:09 pm »
I forgot to add that I tried lots of times wake to sleep and httj but no success.

Offline becj86

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Re: 4.5 months old- extend the naps by nursing?
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2018, 00:56:00 am »
Hi :)

Looks like your A times are reasonable for his age, 2:15-2:30 is average at 5mo. You could certainly try a bit longer than you're doing, say 2:30 and see if that makes a difference given he's previously been able to sleep longer naps and is reliably waking UT. The short naps and inability to transition from sleep cycle to the next may be developmental in which case using whatever settling method you use at the beginning of the nap will help him learn to transition on his own rather than feeding him back to sleep. Having said that, there's no immediate harm in feeding him back to sleep if you're ok with it and are aware that you're teaching him that's what he needs to get back to sleep and that if you don't want to do that any more, there will be a period of teaching him a new way to resettle himself.

Couple of questions:
Are you waking him from his naps or is he waking himself after you've resettled?
What's his behaviour like when he wakes at 37min?
How long has this been happening?

Here's some information of various supply issues that can affect feeding and naps:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=263550.0
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63604.0

Offline foreignmom

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Re: 4.5 months old- extend the naps by nursing?
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2018, 06:22:30 am »
Thanks for the reply. At 37 mins. He wakes up crying. But ne never wakes up from a short nap without cry anyways. When I can resettle he wakes up at 1.5 hour himself. I never wake him up because he never sleeps too much. Previously I used to extend by shuush pat and ocean waves white noise but now this isn't working  ony nursing is working and even it is not always working. Im trying to extend A times again but he is so cranky I cant keep him awake any longer.
Thanks in advance.

Offline becj86

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Re: 4.5 months old- extend the naps by nursing?
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2018, 22:50:25 pm »
Im trying to extend A times again but he is so cranky I cant keep him awake any longer.
This sounds like a reasonable plan. I think if you can extend gently, say 5-10mins more, starting with the first nap of the day, you may have more luck.

Do you think reflux could be part of the problem? Certainly wanting milk really frequently is sometimes an indication of reflux because the milk soothes the burning of the acid.

Offline foreignmom

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Re: 4.5 months old- extend the naps by nursing?
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2018, 17:31:01 pm »
Hi, it's been three days since I extended A times 2.30-2.35 min. So far:
DAY 1 : NAP1&nap2 : too good to be true 1 h25 min without needing me to extend
Day 2: nap 1: didnt resettle so I nursed and 1h 45 min total
            Nap2: resetled by white noise 1.15 min
Day3:  nap 1: didnt  resettle whatever I did only 42 min
            Nap2: resettled by white noise 1.25 h
Any ideas? Is it going well? Do I need to extend further? Is 42 min. an ut nap?
Ps. he is still waking up at least three times at night.I nurse but put to bed immediately.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 17:40:06 pm by foreignmom »

Offline becj86

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Re: 4.5 months old- extend the naps by nursing?
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2018, 08:01:43 am »
Looks good, we now know he can get through the transition from one sleep cycle to the next on his own :)

1:15 is UT, as is 42min - most nap length between 40 and 1.5hr is UT

I would probably give him another 5-10min and see how that goes. Do you mind posting a more recent day in EAS format? Thinking there should be another nap or maybe his day is very short...

Offline foreignmom

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Re: 4.5 months old- extend the naps by nursing?
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2018, 09:33:46 am »
Thanks a lot. Oh I forgot to write abput the catnap. He has a catnap usually between 4- 4.30 then bedtime at 7.
Easy changes everyday yesterday was:
Wu: 6.10
Nap 1. 8.45- 9.27
Nap2 .  12.05- 13.30
Cat nap. 16.05- 16.35
Bt. İntended at 18.30 but slept at 18.55
Then he had many night wakings last night
Nw 19.10 resettles by white noiae
Nw 19.55 didnt resettled I had to nurse
Nw ~ 21 resettled by white noise
Nw ~ 22 resettled by white noise
Nw 23.15 I nursed
Nw 04.15 I nursed
From that point on restless fitful sleep till 7 waking amd resettling by white noise many times.
I'm exhausted at the moment and he is very cranky? Can you please help me? Is white noise turned into a prop? Why are so many night wakings? It increased day by day. Additionally we cant pu pd because he has clubfoot braces on his feet. How else can we resettle? Shush pat isnt working anymore. My husband and I are discussing cio at the moment but I dont want to. We are desperate now. Please help us.
Thanks in advance.

Offline becj86

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Re: 4.5 months old- extend the naps by nursing?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2018, 08:25:54 am »
Are you turning off the white noise? I would try running it through the whole nap as just when he stirs at 35-45min as he transitions from one sleep cycle to the next, if the white noise was on when he fell asleep and is not when he stirs, he may wake and cry because things are not as they were when he fell asleep.

WRT white noise through the night - I'd either play it the whole night or not use it at night.

Any chance these are painful or he's itchy underneath them or some such?
he has clubfoot braces on his feet.

Bt. İntended at 18.30 but slept at 18.55Then he had many night wakings last nightNw 19.10 resettles by white noiaeNw 19.55 didnt resettled I had to nurse
These NWs are classic of OT at BT. Getting the daytime naps sorted out so they're better should help with this.

Nw ~ 21 resettled by white noiseNw ~ 22 resettled by white noiseNw 23.15 I nursed
Wonder how that feed was? Did you burp him well? Waking every hour after a feed suggests maybe there's some gas that's causing some discomfort or something else at play such as reflux.

When you say shush/pat isn't working any more, can you expand on that - When was it working? When did it change? What changed?

Bit of ammunition in the conversation around CIO - its not something we'll ever suggest here as it can break the bond of trust between parents and baby: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=19710.0

Wu: 6.10Nap 1. 8.45- 9.27Nap2 .  12.05- 13.30
So here, he did an UT first nap, so that A time needs a bump.
The second nap was after a full 2.5hr A time off a short nap and it was a good length, so that A time will probably need an increase also, if he sleeps a full first nap.

Offline foreignmom

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Re: 4.5 months old- extend the naps by nursing?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2018, 17:31:28 pm »
hi. I coulndnt wrote feedback as my lo's nightwakings got much worse and I coulndt find time to do anything. I extended first and second A to 2.45 min and got 1.25 naps mostly ( still sometimes 37 min.) which is awesome( thanks for the advice) plus a catnap of 20-30 min. and after catnap I do a shorter A like 2 hours . Isnt 2.45 A time too much for a 5 month old baby ? He is also very cranky while I try to keep him awake.
Naps are better but we have many nightwakings ( he woke up every 1,5 hours last night)  and he wont settle without feeding. Is it because of hunger? But I cant seem to make him nurse more in the day. He is a fast and distracted feeder. What should I do in terms of breastfeeding?
He is sure to have some discomfort from clubfoot braces.Anybody would have discomfort to have a metal bar binding his feet. But what can I do? ıt is his destiny to wear them until 4 years old.
White noise seems to become a prop, I think too. But there is no way he resettles without it. we cant pu pd because of clubfoot braces. It is very hard to do with braces. I can run white noise through the whole naps but I cant run all night because we sleep in the same room and we cant sleep with the white noise on.I'm trying to wean it but it is the only thing that soothes my little one apart from bf.
I'm trying to burp but he wont much burp at night.
I'm so tired and worried with all those nightwakings, ı feel as if I'm drowning. Can you please help about night sleep as well? or should ı write in nightwakings board (or breastfeeding board) , I dont know.
thanks in advance.

Offline becj86

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Re: 4.5 months old- extend the naps by nursing?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2018, 07:20:21 am »
Isnt 2.45 A time too much for a 5 month old baby ?
No, not really. Average at 6mo (just turned) is 2:45-3hr and average at 4mo is 2hr so it increase by ~15min/fortnight - Some babies do longer A times than average, some shorter. If you're getting appropriate-length naps and baby is happy during the day, you're probably about right with the A times.

He is sure to have some discomfort from clubfoot braces.Anybody would have discomfort to have a metal bar binding his feet. But what can I do?
You can be understanding of his discomfort. Comfort him when he's in pain rather than showing him that you're not going to help him when he needs it. You could look into pain relief, especially for nighttime when he has less distraction from the pain and may have more pain from not being as able to move about as he is during awake time in the day.

Naps are better but we have many nightwakings ( he woke up every 1,5 hours last night)  and he wont settle without feeding. Is it because of hunger? But I cant seem to make him nurse more in the day. He is a fast and distracted feeder. What should I do in terms of breastfeeding?
Feeding every 1.5hr through the night seems excessive to be just hunger at this age. I think the breastfeeding is a prop, probably. Does he have a pacified/dummy? How often are you feeding in the day? Have you tried a topup an hour after each main feed during the day (when you introduce solids, you would replace one at a time with solids)?

If you can't run the white noise all night, I would put him to bed for the night without any white noise. Any change in noise will potentially trigger him to wake, so turning it off can be a reason for him to wake.

I think in terms of NWs, I'd be inclined to try the following for a few days and see if it helps:
1. No white noise (even at BT)
2. Pain relief at BT - paracetamol/ibuprofen syrup according to his weight - if he then sleeps until it wears off and then he wakes frequently through the second half of the night, you have your answer regarding the role of pain in his wakings.