Author Topic: Going back to PU/PD. Advice appreciated!  (Read 1373 times)

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Offline *Ali*

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Re: Going back to PU/PD. Advice appreciated!
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2018, 20:33:44 pm »
Hi, I see you are already getting help from the lovely Creations but I wonder, could you share details of your LO's feeds?
The current recommendations are that babies are fed on demand so it is somewhat worrying to hear you refer to her waking several times before "the next scheduled feed". Most EBF babies don't make it to a 4hr EASY as they need to eat more frequently until well established on solids. EASY is a flexible routine and isn't about fitting a baby into feeds or sleeps at set times. It's important to follow your baby's cues. 
I think I'm right in understanding that your baby is at least partly breastfed? It is worth remembering that there is a big growth spurt and developmental leap around 6mo when babies often need to feed more regularly than they have previously to put their order in for more milk to be produced and to satisfy the temporary increase in calorific needs. Breastmilk also has painkillers in it which would help to soothe discomfort from teething so babies often wake more at night and need to nurse to soothe themselves. Your baby is so young that I really wouldn't recommend actively weaning breastfeeds.
I notice you also say that she is refusing bottles. Do you guys allow her to nurse more later to make up for this? Has mum recently gone back to work and that is why she is needing to take a bottle and not being fed directly from the breast? Or is that just a personal choice because you'd like her to take one? If the former then babies are programmed to do something called reverse cycling when away from their mothers in the day. They wake and feed frequently at night, not only to make up lost calories but also to spend time with mum as well as provide extra biological feedback to the breast and to protect the milk supply. 
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Offline J-Dad

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Re: Going back to PU/PD. Advice appreciated!
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2018, 18:29:42 pm »
Just wanted to check in briefly and reply to Ali.

Quick summary of the past few days:
Generally, things have not been so hot. There have been nights where DD woke several times before bedtime and 1am, then slept well until her morning feeding and other nights where there were just multiple wakings.
Naps have been a mixed bag as well. DD woke up about and hour and a half early this morning and I couldn't get her back down, so we had 2h of activity, after which she was clearly ready for a nap. She went down easily and slept for 1.5h with no intervention. (Hooray!) Then, after a feed and 2h20m of activity she was ready to sleep...in my arms...most assuredly not in the crib. I held her until she was asleep 3 times and tried to put her down as gently as possible but to no avail. (Boo.) Gave up on that one. She's playing with grandma now.

Yesterday, though, after a particularly hard night, I decided to try to actually use pu/pd to get DD to sleep for her second nap. It was an unmitigated disaster. She made screams I have never heard her make before and eventually became so worked up that she didn't fully calm for 20-30 minutes. I think I can say it's the single worst experience I've had with her thus far in her life. I felt angry, I felt incredibly guilty and pretty darn hopeless.

Anyway, on to Ali.

DD is breast fed and drinks expressed milk at home with me during the day. Before we were doing EASY, she would drink heartily as she was going down for a nap, occasionally draining as much as a 6oz bag in a single go. (I should add that she's 90th percentile for weight.) When we began EASY, she would drink significantly less when she woke up, but still ate pretty well. Lately, though, she'll show little interest in the bottle at all until noon or after. After that, though, she'll usually drink pretty well, but rarely more than 3oz at a go.

I'm not at all dogmatic about when she eats. I'd love to do EASY proper, but if she doesn't eat when she wakes or eats very little, I'll generally re-offer the bottle every 30-45 min until her next nap. She still eats better just before naps than at other times though I've been trying not to nurse her to sleep for fear of further instilling that crutch to a baby who's already not a great sleeper.

No worries about weaning, we hope to BF for the first year. We've recently introduced some solids but she's not super keen on them. She does get to nurse basically all she wants once Mom gets home (Mom started back to work just over 3mos ago), and we aim for her to have two night feedings--one at about 1am and the other at 5:30am. Again, we're flexible, so if she wakes ~30min on either side of those times Mom will usually get up and feed her. If it's ~30+minutes from those, I'll try to sooth her back to sleep. If she won't sleep with me, Mom comes in and feeds her. Basically, we never deny her food, but we're aiming for roughly the schedule that Tracy suggests. In our case that means:

5:30am Nurse, then back to sleep until
8:30am Wake and Eat
~11am Nap
12:30 Wake and Eat
3:00 Nap
4:30 Wake. (We get flexible here depending on how soon Mom will be home. If she's going to make it by 4:45 she'll nurse with Mom, otherwise I'll offer the bottle)
She'll cluster feed in the evening and go to bed at
8:30pm Sleep
~1:00am Eat

I know it's a bit weird, but Mom appreciates the time with her before work and I appreciate the fact that she generally sleeps easily until 8:30.

Hope this helps! Thank you for your insights.

Offline creations

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Re: Going back to PU/PD. Advice appreciated!
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2018, 18:57:36 pm »
I wonder if you are trying for the second nap too early. Your LO has refused naps  in the afternoon a few times now that I know of. I see you mentioned she was ready to sleep at 2hr 20 but only in arms, refusing the cot, and on another day held out 4hrs+.  At 6 months she can perhaps manage a 3hr A time and the nap refusal could be linked to being UT (under tired). She may appear sleepy after a feed or at a certain time out of habit but she might also be giving signals of wanting a change of scene/activity. boredom signals can be misread as sleepy signals sometimes.  Maybe watch the clock and don't try to ahead to the cot until it's been closer to 3hrs?  Also some LOs like one of their A times much longer than the others, so it wouldn't be unheard of for a second A to be quite a bit longer than the first, so it's even possible she could want longer than 3hrs (but I would push too far initially), if she is very fussy and screaming maybe just say "Ok looks like you are not ready yet" and take her out for another 10-15 min play then try again?  I can remember doing this with my DS at some point too, the crying was dramatically reduced.


Offline J-Dad

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Re: Going back to PU/PD. Advice appreciated!
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2018, 01:07:22 am »
Just wanted to check back in and say that things are kind of terrible. She's waking almost every hour at night now. Naps are hit-and-miss, but nowhere near 2 1.5h naps. Honestly, I'm not sure I remember the last time she had a 1.5h nap. I'm working on extending activity time and think I've finally solved her bottle rejection problem. Still, though, my wife and I are struggling. This continual waking is untenable.

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Re: Going back to PU/PD. Advice appreciated!
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2018, 08:28:33 am »
Oh dear, I'm sorry to hear you're having such a difficult time at the moment.
sometimes it feels like these sleep disturbances are going to go on for ever - but you'll get through it.

Waking so frequently through the night sounds like pain or discomfort.  Is LO teething?  have you tried meds 20 min before BT and perhaps saving a meds dose for the middle of the night to see if this helps at all?
Any ear infection? Reflux? a cold coming?
How is the solids introduction going?  Are you seeing any link to solids and disturbed sleep perhaps? This could be due to tummy pain, gas, reaction to certain foods, change in poos, etc

What's your EASY now?  It may be that you are going too slowly on increasing the A time or that there is some OT build up.