Dropping the nap

[evwright]

Hi, so it looks as if we may be dropping the nap at last    LO is four in June and we have been on the same routine pretty much since the 2-1 erm some years ago... We have shortened the nap a little over time and been trying to keep it at 90 minutes (he would love it to be over 2 hours), but he is very difficult to wake in the afternoon. We had hoped to start cutting the nap at the end so that we could bring bedtime forwards and tack on, but that would have just been too simple  instead he wants to go down later and later for his nap.

Our routine had been:
WU 7-7.30
Nap 2-3.30 (we always have to wake him)
BT usually asleep about 9

For the last few days it has been getting towards 2.30 before he goes to sleep after taking a good 15-20 minutes to go to sleep. Previously he was out cold in a couple of minutes. We are happy to keep WU at about 3.30 so he gets a shorter nap, but of course this means we can't tack on at night without our whole day moving round and we need to be up for nursery (Never mind for school full time in September!). One day a week he doesn't nap due to nursery - he goes down an hour earlier and easily at bt but we have awfully unsettled nights with multiple nw. He has started to refuse his nap completely at the grandparents and is resisting more at home so it probably is time to go for it.

Overall he calls us back a lot at bt and we have continued having nws - but he can sttn as if by magic when presented with a rewards chart so I don't think his overall sleep is far off the mark.

As he loses a little sleep due to the shorter nap do you think we will be able to bring the nap forward again or is there something else we should be trying to keep our morning WU the same?

Any advice appreciated x

[creations]

Hi there
You said that you are not bringing BT earlier when the nap is now shorter, presumably because he is waking at 3.30 still so you are continuing with the 9pm BT but he is getting less nap time so I think you could go for an earlier BT after the shorter nap even though the second A time would be shorter than it was previously.
Also on the days he is missing the nap altogether I would probably try even earlier BT, you said 1hr earlier and disturbed nights, I'd try even earlier BT, maybe even 2hr earlier.

[evwright]

Hi, thanks for that - we'll give it a go for a few days and see what happens x

[Conniesmummy]

I’m no expert but I’ve gotten lots of good advice from here and I’d agree re bedtime being earlier. I’m starting to reduce my lg’s nap down as we’ve had early wake ups a lot so thinking we may be nap dropping too. We’ve been at an hour nap for a long time with the odd exception but no less than 30 mins or more than 1.5hrs. I tried keeping bt the same as it suited us as a family but I think we ended up ot and so the last 2 nights I’ve opted for an earlier bt. I aim for a total of around 12 hrs sleep in 24, give or take. Toddler sleep is so complicated 🤦‍♀️
Is there a particular reason why bt is so late? I like some evening time myself otherwise we’d be in bed at the same time as her 😂😂. This does mean mornings are earlier but that’s the sacrifice 😳😂

[evwright]

Hi, bt is late as he has never slept long nights. When we moved to earlier WU for nursery we hoped the whole day would move round, but it never happened. When we cut the nap from 2hrs to 1.5hrs it still meant at least 11.5hrs total sleep and he would often catch up a little on the weekend mornings. Now that the nap has got shorter we will try an earlier bt and see what happens - just not sure how he'll be with such a short A time in the afternoon - we'll find out shortly 

[creations]

he has never slept long nights

Mine never did long nights either, not until the nap was fully gone, even after the nap first dropped the night increased a bit but the real increase was a little while later as it extended to 12hrs!!  I could not believe it, a 12hr night!  And he did that for a couple of years or more too. I hope for you that your LO can also do longer nights once the nap has fully gone.

Not all LOs will agree to a shorter A time before BT but if they are more tired due to the shorter nap then they might.  Mine did a crazy long first A and crazy short second A. Just all different.

[evwright]

Hi again, we got our nap down to an hour by pushing it out and bringing bt a little earlier. However, it just doesn't feel like we are getting quite enough sleep overall.

He has started really resisting going to nap - refusing, shouting, begging for extra tv/book/hug/toilet (again  ) and I can't tell anymore if it is OT or UT. Some days he has dropped straight off once I've got him in bed but others he has laid there for half an hour so quietly we thought he was asleep and then we find him still awake. BT has only come forward 15 min, but he has lost 30 min+ from nap so I'm thinking OT build up, especially as his behaviour has gone really downhill and he isn't coping with emotions as well. It just doesn't quite sit with the quiet hug and then lying quietly in bed - that always used to be UT here.

I thought that as he got a bit more tired the nap may come forward again slightly and wondered if he was OT, especially as over half term he pulled a couple of long lie-ins to catch up. Hopefully with being back in routine this week we'll see if it was just half-term madness.

He is coming up 4 next week, but we usually get the developmental leaps at the 3 and 9 month marks rather than birthday/half-birthday and felt like we had come out of one a couple of months ago.

He copes fine with one NND a week, but if we have two the second can be awful and is a fight from mid-afternoon until BT.  The only day he did a CN on a NND it was late (3.50-4.10) and then he was awake until after 10pm!

I'm giving it this week to see if things settle, but going forward do you think I should keep cutting nap by 15 minutes (when he is so difficult to wake already) or go down to 20min CN so he can push out a little, but still get earlier BT?

Currently:
WU 7-7.30 (depending on nursery days - a couple of days over half term he slept in until after 9!)
Nap 2.30-3.30
BT 8.45 asleep (7.45 on NND)

I'm sure if we had 26hr days it would really suit him 

[creations]

I'm sure if we had 26hr days it would really suit him 

haha mine would have liked a 23 hr day

I think on a NND you might need to bring BT much earlier. Possibly 2 hr earlier rather than 1hr.  That might help him get a better night and cope better with another NND in the week.
I would think at almost 4yo he should be ready to drop the nap now but sometimes it's a case of gritting your teeth and getting on with it because otherwise they night doesn't have a chance to extend. Mine didn't extend the night until a while after the nap was fully gone and I've seen similar on other posts.
If he has shown he can do some long lie-ins during half term then I'd take it that he can extend the night when needed but until the nap is either routinely gone or routinely shorter his body clock maybe just doesn't know that he needs to extend the night.  What do you think?

[evwright]

I agree about making things routine, it's just whether we are best to cut another 15 minutes off (down to 45min) or go straight to 20min CNs as he is so difficult to wake once he is fully gone. Any thoughts? I've lost my instincts around his sleep currently.

We were rather surprised when he pulled a 12hr+ night - especially as he had had a good nap that day! He's previously only done 12hrs a couple of times when really ill. It is good to know he can do it though.

I'll give a much earlier BT on our next NND a go and see how he responds. It's taken so long to get a good night's sleep again and we've never done EBT so I'm probably not allowing enough time to make up rather than just replacing the amount of sleep lost hour for hour.

[Conniesmummy]

We ended up just ditching the nap altogether, my lo is almost 3 and now any day sleep has a massive negative impact on bedtime. For example a 30 min nap results in almost 1.5 hrs later to sleep and still waking the same in the morning.
It’s so hard for them getting through the day sometimes but I know now it’s for the best if she doesn’t nap cos the consequences of a tiny nap are far worse than the odd tired wobbly. We’ve had a few episodes of eyes closing at the tea table but I don’t think the weather helps
Right now as it’s so warm.
We avoid long car journeys as much as possible unless there are 2 of us to keep her awake. It won’t be forever is what keeps me sane.
Some kids just love their naps. Mine made the decision for us by dropping it herself.

[creations]

whether we are best to cut another 15 minutes off (down to 45min) or go straight to 20min CNs as he is so difficult to wake once he is fully gone. Any thoughts? I've lost my instincts around his sleep currently.

Sorry it's not possible for me to say which way to go out of these two options.  I think I'd be inclined at this point to just grit my teeth and drop the nap altogether - I feel nights have a better chance of lengthening that way but it's personal choice what to go for really.

[evwright]

Hi creations, you may be right it could just be time to go for it. We're on holiday next week so I think we'll try to keep the current routine for that and then a few days to recover. When we do drop it completely what kind of BT or day length do you think we should head for? Currently on the NND he does just under 12hr night and then wakes up himself, but we've never had two in a row to see what would happen the days after that. I don't think we've had more than 12hrs sleep since he was about 18 months. I'm thinking to just use a couple of CN per week as necessary rather than on a routine basis. Does that sound sensible? I have read the dropping the nap sticky, but assumed a night of 13-14hrs that is mentioned as possible would be for a younger one? I know every kid is different, just trying to get a feel for a general direction x

[Conniesmummy]

I know the last post wasn’t aimed at me to answer but thought I’d share.
We tried to push for a longer night by doing early bedtime in the hope of tagging on but it never worked and we ended up with earlier wake ups 🤦‍♀️
Then we discovered that any nap, however small, resulted in mega bedtime stalling and shortened nights. Now we battle on through and hope to come through it eventually. My lo is 3 in August.
Generally she copes very well and has the odd tired cry at bathtime, but this is much easier to deal with than the repercussions of a tiny nap!!

[creations]

Thanks for paying it forward conniesmummy - all support very welcome

I think based him having done a couple of very long nights (about 14hr?) when he had a lie in over half term it could well be possible to see some long nights when you drop the nap (but they don;t necessarily happen right away).  I understand what you're saying about the 13-14hr nights probably being more for younger LOs, not 4yos, but equally a lot of 4yos wouldn't be accepting a nap, some are refusing a nap at 2yo.  What I'm saying is, if he needed a nap up to now he could well need, or do, a long night. It might only be a few long nights or it might not.  But a 12hr night would be fine too.  It looks like he used to do 12hr nights when he was younger and based on that I'd guess (it is only a guess)that he could now do 12 or longer.  Part of the guessing is based on what you've said about his sleep, part of it is based on what I've seen on the boards over the years, part is what I experienced with my own DS who only ever did 10.5hr nights and never 12hrs (ok he did a couple when a nap dropped but then reverted to 10.5, 11 at most) but when he fully dropped his nap his nights lengthened to 12hrs. Add to that he stuck with 12hr nights for several years, he was older than 4yo when it reduced to 11.5 and now at 7yo it's 11hr (or just under).

Perhaps if you aim for 11-12hr day? 12-13hr night?
I think you'll have to consider CNs just as and when it seems impossible not to offer one.  As conniesmummy has said sometimes CNs cause more trouble and prevent the night sleep, prevent the routine settling down.  Sometimes though I know myself that it just gets to the point you know your kid needs a sleep.  Mine dropped his last nap cold turkey and we went 2 wks before I invited him for a sleep with me, it was a massive surprise that he accepted the invite, it wasn't like him at all, and we both lay on my bed and slept on and off for a couple of hours. No naps after that but it did him good to have just one last nap.

[evwright]

Thank you both for the replies. I know that if we do a late CN it causes chaos so I think we'll have to just push through and see how we go. Considering how difficult he was ahead of his nap today it may be tomorrow! And then of course he didn't want to wake up  At least we'll have lots to do on holiday to keep him interested and the fresh air may help him sleep so it might not be a bad time after all. I'll pop back to update (assuming you'll let me back when we're 4  ) xx