Author Topic: Naps going to pot again  (Read 1669 times)

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Offline Tilsley1471

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Naps going to pot again
« on: May 22, 2018, 17:34:40 pm »
Hi all!

My baby is 8 months 3 days (although 7 months corrected).

Basically she slept through from a young age (8 weeks) but her naps were always bad and mainly cat naps. I then worked hard to get her from 5 30 min cat naps down to 4 naps (roughly at 7.30/8, 11ish, 2ish and then 4ish). She would go to bed at 6.30. She then started waking between 4.30 and 5 a few months ago and I wasn't sure if it was her teeth or not but she started fighting that last nap of the day and eventually she dropped it around a month ago. She then started taking a bit of a longer afternoon nap (1 hour to 1.5 hours) and was doing a 30 min nap at 8ish, a 30 min nap at 10.30/11 and then an afternoon nap at 2ish. She would then wake between 5.30/6 which is ok. Then last week she started fighting that 10.30/11 nap or only did 15 mins but was doing a 2 hour nap in the afternoon. The last few days though she's done a 35 min nap in the morning and then a 1 hour nap in the afternoon. I'm not sure where it's going wrong again. I'm trying to stretch her awake time out a bit in the morning.

Today she did the following:

6am - wake up
6.30 - BF
7.15 - breakfast
8.40 - nap
9.15 - wake up
10.15 - bottle
12.20 - lunch
1.00 - nap
2.00 - woke up crying and couldn't resettle her
1.40 - bottle
4.45 - dinner
6.00 - bottle
6.10 - asleep

Thank you for any help you can give! I don't know whether to go back to a cat nap at 11 or at the end of the day but feel like we worked hard to get to 2 naps and it was working






 

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Re: Naps going to pot again
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2018, 10:05:06 am »
Hello welcome to BW forums :)

It looks like her first nap is just coming too early which (because there is no second morning CN to bridge the gap) is resulting in a very long second A time which could be leading to OT. The OT may be causing her a short afternoon nap because she can't relax enough.
I would just shift the first nap, it is very early for a baby this age and I would expect to see at least 3hrs awake.  Whether the first nap lengthens or not it will still end later than it currently is making the next A time more suitable so you have a chance of at least one good nap in the day.

If she is repeatedly waking at 1hr in the afternoon I'd suggest a short term W2S (wake to sleep) to help her through the transition. Here is a description of W2S, you will need to adapt the times to suit, so go in and put a hand on (or ready yourself 1cm above her body) at about 50 mins and see her right through and into her next sleep cycle to try to avoid her fully waking and crying hard.  Do this for several days.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
Look at naps option 1 for guidance.

let us know how you get on


Offline Tilsley1471

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Re: Naps going to pot again
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2018, 09:17:01 am »
Hi thank you so much for your reply. I thought her awake time wasn't long enough in the morning so I'm glad you've thought so too  :)

I'm sorry if this is a bit premature as I've not done a whole day yet but I put her down this morning after 2.50 awake time and she was happy and fell asleep in 5 minutes so 2.55 awake time for first nap and she's woken after 30 minutes crying (she's been waking happy in the morning previously). I tried resettling for 20 minutes but she wouldn't go back to sleep. Shall I stick at 2.55 for a few days as wasn't sure if that's normal to start with when stretching out awake times and what sort of awake time would you do for the afternoon nap?

Thank you

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Re: Naps going to pot again
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2018, 18:08:11 pm »
The reason I didn't mention the second A time is that it looked like you were doing a kind of set nap time at 2pm, the later morning nap and possibly longer will reduce that second A time anyway.  You probably can't move it any earlier or you risk having too long an A time before BT. Hope that makes sense, you need that nap kind of in the middle between nap 1 and BT.

The 30 min crying could be either OT or UT. Often we say OT but the A time is so short I really doubt it, I suspect more that she was tired and wanted to sleep more but couldn't manage it. So I'd either increase the A a little more to get to the full 3hrs or even 3hr 10 and/or help her through with W2S.  I'd be in there are the 30 min mark to help her if she needs it so she doesn't have to fully wake and cry for you, there is a better chance of a resettle if you are already in position.



Offline Tilsley1471

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Re: Naps going to pot again
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2018, 14:22:42 pm »
Thank you for your reply.

So yesterday we had:

WU: 6.20
E:6.30
E: 7.15 (solids)
A: 2.55 hours
S: 9.15 - 9.45 (woke crying)
E: 10.25
E: 12.00 (solids)
A: 3.25 hours
S: 1.10 - 2.20 (woke crying and couldn't resettle)
E: 3.30
E: 4.45 (solids)
E: 6.05
A: 3.55 hours
S: 6.15 - 6.50 (woke crying but went back to sleep)

Today so far:

WU: 6.50 (unusual for her as she normally wakes between 5.45 and 6.20)
E: 7.00
E: 8.10 (solids)
A: 3.05 hours
S: 9.55 - 11.00 (not sure if I woke her checking on her as friends were coming)
E: 11.05
E: 1.05 (solids)
A: 3.20 hours
S: 2.20 - 2.55 (woke crying and couldn't resettle nor did I get there in time to do W2S as was expecting an hour)

I know it's only part of a day but I'm wondering if 3.20 awake time between nap 1 and nap 2 wasn't long enough or if she was overtired and I need to bring it back?

Thank you

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Re: Naps going to pot again
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2018, 18:17:18 pm »
Based on what you said about the second CN being dropped leaving a 30 min nap 8 - 8.30 and then the next nap at 2pm, this is a really long A time but your LO was often sleeping well for the afternoon nap (2hr) it seemed so I'd go with quite a long second A time.  Unless of course your records show otherwise or you feel otherwise?  Or I've misunderstood?
I did feel it was a bit too long and that was the reason she started waking crying in the middle of the afternoon nap - but with a later and longer first nap that should help.

Perhaps something like:
WU 6.30
A 3hr
S 9.30 - 10.30
A 3hr 30
S 2.00 - 4.00
A 3hr
BT 7
night 11.5hr

it's just an example, obviously you know LO better than I do :)  If you feel the second A needs to be longer or BT later that's ok.


Offline Tilsley1471

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Re: Naps going to pot again
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2018, 18:33:49 pm »
Thank you again for your reply :-)

I think I confused things a bit sorry - looking at my logs, when I dropped that second cat nap, I brought the afternoon nap forward to about 12.40/12.45 and she would do 1.45-2 hours until Monday which is when she started crying after an hour).

She's had a 3.40 awake time tonight from second nap until BT and she wasn't too grumpy and fell asleep at 6.35 herself and is still asleep an hour later (at the mo - famous last words!).

It's encouraging that her morning nap went well today with that longer awake time :-) it's just trying to get that next one right now but I find it hard to know if she's overtired or undertired and whether 3.20 awake time just wasn't quite enough today.

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Re: Naps going to pot again
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2018, 07:44:26 am »
Ah, ok, I was basing my thoughts on her doing a really long A time from 8.30am at the end of nap 1 to  2pm for the start of nap 2.

Lets start again :)

If she was going from that morning CN until 12.40 it's still really long, like 4hr.  And that could be where you need to head with that A time but it's a bit tricky to know with there being lots of changes.
How about trying 3hr or 3hr 10 for the first A and then 3hr 40 for the second? What do you think?
WU 6.30
A 3hr 10
S 9.40 - 10.40 (you probably don't want more than 1hr here as the day will end up long)
A 3hr 40
S 2.20 - 3.50/4.20 (1hr 30 - 2hr)
A
BT7/7.30


Offline Tilsley1471

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Re: Naps going to pot again
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2018, 09:11:06 am »
Brilliant thank you - I will give that a go for a few days :-)

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Re: Naps going to pot again
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2018, 15:12:38 pm »
Sorry just a quick question - if she does a 35 min nap in the morning, what sort of awake time would you have for that 2nd nap in that case? Today so far she had an unintentional A time of 3.35 hours and slept for 35 mins but woke happy and then she had an A time of 3.15 as I thought 3.40 would be too much after cat nap and she woke after 30 mins crying so OT I guess but not sure what A time to do if she does a CN in morning again?

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Re: Naps going to pot again
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2018, 09:34:03 am »
I'd probably go for the full A time anyway.
The guidance time for age is here:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0
You'll see the A time for 7 months is 3hr 15 and that some are getting more (some are substantially more because we work on what suits LO to get the best sleep not on a one-size-fits-all schedule).  Also that at 8 months the guidance is 3-4 hrs.
Your LOs adjusted age is 7 months but I have usually seen that over the months the adjusted age often gets closer to real age in terms of sleep needs so we could be looking at something 7.5 - 8 months roughly as a guidance and this means A time can be anything from 3hr 15 - 4hrs as guidance.
I'm still basing my thoughts on her previously having a long second A time and getting a good nap out of it, we've already reduced that A time from 4hrs (which I think she was having) to 3hr 40...and it could well be that she needs longer rather than shorter, we don't really have anything to base this on yet.

So in the case of having a morning CN I think what I'd try is the full A time but then be prepared to get in there quickly to help resettle if there is a mid nap wake up.  Use W2S to shush/pat (or firm hand) her back to sleep if you can and just help her to stay asleep for a good nap length.  You might even decide to go back in at 20 - 30 min and just stay through the nap to help out as and when needed on the days when you don't get a decent first nap.
Sometimes waking early and crying can be caused by being UT - I know it's confusing as it can be either OT or UT but if you run the routine for a while hopefully there will be a pattern to indicate which way to go.


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Re: Naps going to pot again
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2018, 12:33:40 pm »
Brilliant thank you.

Unfortunately she was an overtired mess yesterday and only had a 35 min nap and 30 min nap and then a few waking at bedtime and an early waking at 5.25  ::)

Today she's fallen asleep twice in her highchair at around 2.55-3 hours AT so I've had to put her up for naps. The problem is she's had an hour and then a 30 min one which she woke happy from (which suggests UT yet she fell asleep in her highchair!).

The problem is she's been awake since 12.50 so she's going to have to have another one and then I feel like it's back to 3 naps again but I guess that's ok to do after a bad night and EW to get her through and then hope she has a restful sleep so I can try the suggested AT from tomorrow for a few days?

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Re: Naps going to pot again
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2018, 08:26:31 am »
It's okay if you need to add an extra nap in one day.
She might have just needed to catch up from having had a bad day.


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Re: Naps going to pot again
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2018, 08:10:16 am »
So we've not had much success over the last few days - we've got EMW now which is messing up the day and she's falling asleep before 3 hours AT in her highchair or play mat etc. Here are the last few days:

Sunday

WU: 5.25
A: 2.55
S: 8.20-9.20
A: 3.00
S: 12.20-12.50
A: 2.05
S: 2.55-3.25
BT: 6.20

Monday

WU: 6.05
A: 3.10
S: 9.15-10.25
A: 3.40
S: 2.05-2.40
A: 3.40
BT: 6.20

Tuesday (at grandmas for the day)

WU: 5.25
A: 2.50
S: 8.15-9.15
A: 3.00
S: 12.15-2.30
A: 3.30
S: 6.00

Wednesday (we travelled home to South West for the day so sleep a bit all over the place)

WU: 6.00
A: 2.50
S: 8.50-9.25 (in car)
A: 2.50
S: 12.15-12.25 (in car)
A: 1.45
S: 2.10-2.55
A: 3.15
S: 6.10

Thursday (so far)

WU: 5.30
A: 2.55
S: 8.25-9.00

I just don't know what to do as I can't seem to stretch her out 3 hours at the mo as she keeps waking early and falling asleep before 3 hours yet only doing a short nap. I'm starting to get to my wits end as I feel like I need to go back to 3 naps a day which I really don't want to do. Thank you

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Re: Naps going to pot again
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2018, 18:33:53 pm »
The night length is actually pretty goo, looks like 11 - 12hr which is fine so although it feels like an early wake up to you because it's 5.30am to her it is probably the end of her night.  To improve this you'd nee to move the whole day on.
Tracy said in one of her books do anything to keep LO awake when  routine needs fixing, she said do a fan dance if necessary.  I think you might need to get the fan out ;)

Shift the entire day by 15 mins every day so even if she "can't do 3hrs" you'll need to employ methods to keep her awake.
I would find this easier if I wrote it down so that I knew each day when naps and feeds are then I could follow it, I've done this myself with clock changes.  Rather than going on A times each day you work it out in advance and then stick to it for the week.  You should then be an hour on with BT more like 7pm and WU more like 6.30am.