Author Topic: Advice on how to start teaching independent sleep to 12wo  (Read 2997 times)

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Offline Katkirch

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Advice on how to start teaching independent sleep to 12wo
« on: June 15, 2018, 21:35:29 pm »
I tried teaching independent sleep to my DS several times when he was younger but could never get it to work. I started using the techniques from “The Happieat Baby on the Block” to sooth him to sleep. After he’s been awake 1.5 hours, he starts to fuss a bit. He used to yawn but rarely does anymore. Sometimes he gets slow and dazes but not often so I just watch the clock and his fussiness. I then take him up to his darkened room, swaddle him, turn on a sound machine and lay him on his side on my legs. I give him his pacifier and bounce him a bit with my legs. He is usually asleep within a minute or two. The problem is that he wakes every 30-40 minutes (lately even more often) and then I have to bounce him again to sleep. But now that he’s slept some, he doesn’t seem as tired so he often cries and it takes longer to get him to sleep again. I’m getting exhausted bouncing him to sleep 20 times a day so i want to try teaching him to fall asleep independently but feel overwhelmed since it never worked for him. Any advice on how to get started?

Offline becj86

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Re: Advice on how to start teaching independent sleep to 12wo
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2018, 22:44:14 pm »
Sometimes he gets slow and dazes but not often so I just watch the clock and his fussiness. I then take him up to his darkened room, swaddle him, turn on a sound machine and lay him on his side on my legs.
So I think you have picked up his tired cues - they don't have to be yawning, his are that he gets slow and dazed. I would also just watch the clock with a 12wo as things are still a bit unreliable in the cue department for some babies this age. I would suggest you do exactly what you've' been doing except just put him on his cot and do shush/pat or some variation rather than bouncing him. At the moment, he's waking from sleep to find that he's in a different place than he was when he fell asleep. That makes him feel unsafe so he wakes and cries instead of trying to get back off to sleep and join up his sleep cycles. It can be tricky at this age as sleep cycles become more pronounced, so this can be developmental as well, but if you put him in his bed awake and do shush/pat til drowsy, he will be better placed to settle himself back to sleep when he rouses between sleep cycles.

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Re: Advice on how to start teaching independent sleep to 12wo
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2018, 08:16:16 am »
Welcome back katkirch - wow I can't believe 2 months has gone by so quickly and your LO is already 12wks old!

Adding to what bec already said, if you can use a firm hand to rock him (very small movements) whilst he is in the cot you may be able to recreate a similar movement sensation to the bouncing you have been doing. Initially the "work" you put in may seem just as much as you have been doing this far but it would be a great step to get those naps in the cot and link the cycles together in the cot.  You can even use the firm hand/rocking in the cot throughout the nap to get him used to doing a full nap to begin with as part of sleep training is habit building, if you help him build the habit of sleeping longer he will be more ready to do it alone.

Let us know how you get on.


Offline Katkirch

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Re: Advice on how to start teaching independent sleep to 12wo
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2018, 18:07:15 pm »
Thanks for advice. For naps yesterday and today, I’ve still been swaddling him and setting him on his side on my legs with a little bounce if he is upset to wind down. When he seems calm and drowsy, I put him in the crib and put a firm hand on him to wiggle him a bit as you advised and it works!  He’s been falling asleep in the crib pretty quickly. He still wakes after one sleep cycle and doesn’t sleep as well for the next. He often wakes after only 20 minutes. I’ll try going in before he comes out of the sleep cycle to help him through and see if that helps. A couple questions: 1) is it bad to still be bouncing him a bit during the wind down?  My thought was to start doing that since he has a sleep association with it and then after a couple weeks as he has gotten used to falling asleep in the crib, I’ll stop bouncing during the wind down. 2). What do you do when you miss the window and he gets overtired?  Yesterday he got overtired because we weren’t home. I try to not do this too much but it inevitably is going to happen sometimes. When we got home, he was overtired and I couldn’t get him to fall asleep in his crib. I ended up caving and rocking him to sleep.

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Re: Advice on how to start teaching independent sleep to 12wo
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2018, 09:32:29 am »
I put him in the crib and put a firm hand on him to wiggle him a bit as you advised and it works!
Yay! Great news.
This doesn't mean you never pick him up if he's upset but it does give you another tool to sooth in the cot whenever possible :)

He’s been falling asleep in the crib pretty quickly.
Great :) As bec said this helps enormously as he won't then wake in a different place and wonder where he is and what happened.

He often wakes after only 20 minutes.
This tends to be due to either pain or OT.
Any possibility of pain?
What are you A times like, you can post your EASY times if you like (real times not planned times).

You can use the firm hand and even the wriggling on and off throughout the nap if necessary as part of sleep training. If you are able to stop the wiggling before he nods off then great but you might then start up again 10 min later to see him through that 20 min wake up and keep him asleep.  This way he can still learn to nod off without the wiggling but you also help him once asleep so he has a better chance of learning to nap longer and sooth him through OT (or pain, although you can't always prevent them waking it is just a method to try).

1) is it bad to still be bouncing him a bit during the wind down?
In my opinion it's fine to do almost anything for wind down, so long as it's healthy (not dipping dummy into juice or whatever as previous generations liked to do) and relatively sustainable for you to do.  If you have to hold and bounce for a long time this is not likely sustainable but it's okay in the shorter term and the length of time can be gradually reduced but doesn't have to be totally eliminated.
My LO liked a very short wind down but there were tricky phases (nap drops, teething etc) where he needed a lot so I gave him a lot but I knew it was relatively temporary to get through a tricky phase.  Hope that makes sense.

2). What do you do when you miss the window and he gets overtired?  Yesterday he got overtired because we weren’t home. I try to not do this too much but it inevitably is going to happen sometimes. When we got home, he was overtired and I couldn’t get him to fall asleep in his crib. I ended up caving and rocking him to sleep.
This is probably what any of us would have done. If you know the reason he was OT is because you were out then the chances are you are going to need to help him more for that sleep.  Working out a consistent routine is really helpful and most of us try to stick to it as it gives us an easier time of getting LOs to sleep but as you said, sometimes it just can't be avoided and you have to do whatever you can.


Offline Katkirch

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Re: Advice on how to start teaching independent sleep to 12wo
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2018, 19:58:57 pm »
Thanks again for your response.  Sorry i didn't respond back quicker.  The last few weeks have been a little weird for him (cold, developmental leap, diagnosed with silent reflux) so I was waiting to see how things ended up after all of that.

In the last couple weeks he started hating being bounced on my legs (just when we had things figured out :D ).  He basically starts screaming as soon as I swaddle him but will calm pretty quickly in my arms with a pacifier and me walking around. As soon as he is getting drowsy (eyes starting to close), I set him down in his crib.  Two-thirds of the time, we starts screaming again and won't settle so I have to pick him up.  Eventually I can set him down and he'll sleep but I think he was just basically asleep when I laid him down.  This morning, I tried shush pat when he started screaming in his crib and it did work within a few minutes.  Shush pat has never worked for him so I'll keep trying that and see if it continues to work.

"This tends to be due to either pain or OT.
Any possibility of pain?
What are you A times like, you can post your EASY times if you like (real times not planned times)."  I can't figure out how to get the quote in.  I don't think he's in pain because he doesn't arch his back or show any signs.  He usually just starts squirming and moving and then his eyes open and he eventually cries.  it's not always 20 minutes either lately.  He always sleeps great for the first 30-45 minutes of nap and then is restless and wakes often after this (unless I'm holding him).

Here is an example EASY plan (I have him on a 3.5 hour easy plan because he was never hungry after 3 hours):
8:00 - WU and E (he wakes up between
9:45 - S
11:30 - E
1:15 - S
3:00 E
4:45 S
6:30 E
8:00 Top-off and Bedtime
10:30 Dreamfeed
He then has two night feeds.  Since he got sick, he started waking for more than just to eat so if it's been less than 3 hours, we give him his pacifier and get him back to sleep (we try to do it without getting him out of the crib if at all possible).

For almost all of the sleep time, he is still waking after a sleep cycle.  When he starts to stir, I go in and jiggle him and give him his pacifier. Often he goes back to sleep and I'll stay in there for about 10 minutes but he is restless the rest of the sleep waking often so I stay in his room to keep getting him back to sleep.  Sometimes he is too awake so i will pick him up and he will fall right back to sleep in my arms so I'll hold him for the rest.  Sometimes he is too awake and when i pick him up he doesn't fall asleep so i walk around and bounce him or put him in a sling to get him to go back to sleep.  He is often awake for maybe 15-20 minutes but eventually will fall back asleep.  If I try to feed him in less than 3.5 hours, he won't eat so I do this to keep him on EASY.  Any thoughts or tweaks I should make? 

Also, one other question, sometimes his last night feed is close to his wake-up time.  If it's been 2 hours, I usually still feed him when he wakes. He takes a lot less than normal but then I continue with EASY.  If it's been less than 2 hours, he usually won't eat anything when he wakes up.  So I end up doing a modified EASY (example below):

6:30 - night feed
8:00 - wake up
9:30 - sleep
10 or 10:15 - eat

But he usually seems sleepy and cranky during his next awake time because of the catnap.  Is there sometime else I should do?





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Re: Advice on how to start teaching independent sleep to 12wo
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2018, 18:00:16 pm »
  I can't figure out how to get the quote in.
highlight the part you'd like to quote and then hit the quote button near top right of post you are quoting from. Then highlight the next part you'd like to quote for further quotes.

diagnosed with silent reflux
You've had lots going on...and this silent reflux can be enough to have caused pain/discomfort to unsettle sleep.
Is he on medication for this now? Is the silent reflux controlled?

How old is your LO now please?


Offline Katkirch

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Re: Advice on how to start teaching independent sleep to 12wo
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2018, 21:39:18 pm »
Thanks for the help with the quotes. :)

[/quote]
You've had lots going on...and this silent reflux can be enough to have caused pain/discomfort to unsettle sleep.
Is he on medication for this now? Is the silent reflux controlled?

Yes, he is on zantac now and within a few days he started eating much better. He used to scream after eating about an ounce and wouldn't take more except when he was sleeping at night...now he will take 3-6 ounces each day feed.  The reflux has never seemed to bother him other than when he's eating.  He likes playing on his back so I'm thinking it wasn't bothering him while sleeping on his back.

How old is your LO now please?

He will be 16 weeks tomorrow but was born 2 weeks early.

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Re: Advice on how to start teaching independent sleep to 12wo
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2018, 11:03:40 am »
It's not always easy to tell when they are bothered by silent reflux, my DS would also play on his back, preferred not to be on his tummy but still did some tummy time more if a bit elevated.  Those 20 min naps though could well have been discomfort even if LO is not screaming in pain, like acid comes up and that isn't pleasant and wakes LO but then it's not so severe that they are screaming necessarily.

The longer (but still short) naps now look less like pain and more like he either needs to learn to link his sleep cycles together and make the habit of sleeping longer or maybe a touch UT and needs another 10 mins A time before nap.

It's not clear on your EASY how long he napped each time, when you post could you try to make a note of when he goes to sleep, when he wakes, what you do to resettle and if he goes back to sleep what time it is and waking time again.  Sorry that sounds like a lot, it can help us though to understand what's happening.

Did you read the FAQ on W2S (wake to sleep)?, here it is
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
Look at naps option 1, you begin to resettle LO before he wakes and see him right through the transition. It is often easier to get them to resettle even if they do wake up if you start before they are fully awake and cry out. Also they will often wake at 10 mins again if you do not continue the W2S for 20 mins after the next cycle starts which is how long it takes into the deep sleep part of the cycle.
How about trying this for 3-4 days and see if the nap length improves?
If naps don't improve with this you could try adding 10 min onto the A time and try the W2S for a few days again.

Cot blocks or a cot safe wedge can be useful to incline the cot for refluxers, it can help them sleep more easily.
Mine was also given a thickener which was added to his milk, you could look into that?

3.5hr E times is fine, at 4 months most move to 4hrly E times so this is normal.
Do what you can to just time the E and S so that they fit in trying to keep a little A time before S.

Rather than giving a CN in the morning to try to get back on to the EASY routine I would just hold off with the E on morning WU if it's been too short a time for a good feed, maybe feed 30 min or 1hr after WU instead.  As your LO is on 1hr 45 (and will be moving towards 2hr) A times this should not clash with sleep too much. Just do a normal A time, long nap and then feed, example:
NF 6.00
WU 8
E 9
A 1hr 45 - 2hr
S 9.45/10am - 11.30 (1.5 - 2hr nap)
E 12.30
A 1hr 45 - 2hr
S 1.30 - 3
E 4pm
It's just an example so you can see how the feeds can fit in without capping any nap.  it doesn't matter if LO is awake before the E time, EASAEAS is fine.

hope this helps


Offline Katkirch

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Re: Advice on how to start teaching independent sleep to 12wo
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2018, 03:21:37 am »
It's not clear on your EASY how long he napped each time, when you post could you try to make a note of when he goes to sleep, when he wakes, what you do to resettle and if he goes back to sleep what time it is and waking time again.

I did W2S the last two days and it didn't seem to go great.  The first day, he didn't nap well and ended up super overtired by the evening but today was better than yesterday.  Below is my EASY with lots of details.  For all initial times he fell asleep, I got him quite drowsy doing a wind down and then finished getting him asleep in his crib using shush pat except for the one time which I noted.  When he wakes enough during nap to open his eyes, I give him his pacifier and continue shush pat and he usually settles and closes his eyes pretty much immediately.  I didn't mark when he fell back asleep since it's pretty much immediately or not at all.  I try not to let him sleep with his pacifier in so I wait for it to fall out or I pull it out when he stops sucking on it and reinsert in if he stirs and roots for it again.  I keep trying this until he stays sleeping without the pacifier.  This is what I did to get him back to sleep whenever he woke during a nap unless otherwise noted.

Day 1:
7:20 WU
7:45 E
9:07 S (at 9:40 turned on side and patted for W2S, woke at 9:55, 10:00, 10:08 and 10:18,  I stopped patting at 10:21)
10:24 A
10:30  E (he didn't eat much at 7:45 so I thought he might be hungry but he still didn't eat much so I probably should have waited until 3.5 hours or until I saw feeding cues)
12:18 S (woke at 12:48 right as I was going in to start W2S, I did shush pat and continued after he was asleep, he woke at 1:13, 1:27, I stopped patting at 1:30)
1:40 A
1:45 E
3:35 S (this was a bit later than usual because I ran an errand and it took a bit longer than I thought it would,  he was super happy during wind down but then kind of melted down, woke at 3:49 and I used shush pat to get him back to sleep, started patting for W2S at 4:07 and he woke up when I turned him on his side to pat him, I continued shush pat with a pacifier but he never went back to sleep, by 4:35 I gave up)
4:40 E
5:55 S (I started wind down earlier for this sleep because he was rubbing eyes and the last nap was short but then he was super hard to settle and get to sleep,  I had to pick him back up several times because he got really worked up in crib during shush pat, woke at 6:05 and did shush pat to get to sleep
6:30 A
7:40 E
8:00 S (dream feed and lots of wakings at night but i'm not typing them up since we're focusing on naps)

Day 2:
8:00 WU (he woke at 6:15am and I told my husband he could feed him which he took as it was optional to feed him :) He couldn't get him back asleep so he was awake until 7:09 when he finally fed him and then he fell back asleep.  This kind of made the first E time weird)
9:00 tried to get to E but he wouldn't eat anything
9:48 S (started patting at 10:20 for W2S, woke at 10:24 and 10:48, stopped patting at 10:55)
11:11 A
11:15 E
1:00 S (started patting at 1:32 for W2S, woke at 1:34, 1:43, 1:47, 1:49 (this wake-up was when pacifier fell out), stopped patting at 1:54 (I got a call from our pediatrician so I stopped earlier than I would have), woke at 2:04, 2:10, 2:12, 2:13 (pacifier fell out) 2:17 stopped patting but pacifier was still in because my many attempts didn't get it out, 2:21 pacifier fell out,
2:31 A
2:38 E (a bit early but he was hungry crying
4:16 S (4:46 went in to do W2S, he woke up at 4:56 and shush pat didn't work so I eventually picked him up and bounced him to sleep because he was super tired and then held him, he slept restlessly in my arms and needed the pacifier reinserted several times and for me to stand up and walk around or bounce him.  He usually sleeps better in my arms than this)
5:50 E (he woke up on his own)
7:40 E (was just going to top off but he was still hungry so ended up taking a full bottle...I think he might be going through a growth spurt because he ate a lot today and was a lot hungrier than normal)
~8:00 S (He was getting sleepy eating so I was trying to keep him awake but he fell asleep.  I then tried to wake him up after but he was completely out and limp)

I was encouraged that he had two longer naps in his crib today but he just wakes up so much during his naps even with me patting him.  We'll see if tomorrow is any better.  I'm up for advice from anyone that has any.  Thanks to anyone that persevered to make it through my detailed EASY for the last two days. :)


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Re: Advice on how to start teaching independent sleep to 12wo
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2018, 09:35:27 am »
I did W2S the last two days and it didn't seem to go great.  The first day, he didn't nap well and ended up super overtired by the evening but today was better than yesterday.
You are doing brilliantly :)
Whilst you might not feel that you are seeing fast improvement this is a process that takes time for everyone and considering the tricky start you all had I really do think you are doing great.  He's going to gradually learn to sleep longer and I think you will see some progress step by step as the days go by.
What you are doing is great, it's really helpful for him to have you helping him so much.  If you start to feel like it's too much for you though (it's hard work doing shush/pat and W2S through every nap) you can still choose to reduce how many times you are doing it in the day by giving one or two naps in the cot and the others in arms/sling/stroller.  If you do feel you want to do this I recommend doing the same nap each day in the cot for consistency as he will learn the routine and make a habit of it.

One thing you can try, rather than turning him on his side to pat his back you can instead pat his hip or nappy area and leave him sleeping on his back.  Obviously don't pat hard on the tummy but often people find they can pat somewhere without having to roll LO to the side.

Another thing you can try, as he seems to like rocking and bouncing you can experiment if you like with adapting the pat, instead put a firm hand on him and use a small rocking motion, almost a little vibration.  This can be weaned in exactly the same way as patting so if he likes it you don't have to feel like you're doing it "wrong".

Another thing to note.  Waking during W2S is normal, all of us wake at the end of a sleep cycle and then go back to sleep. The additional waking is where he is not managing to stay asleep he's nodding and waking, possibly jolting, this might become more noticeable with additional level of tiredness,this is normal for babies and patting (or adapted) through it will help him relax as much as possible.  Once he is asleep you may need to continue to pat/adapted for an additional 20 mins to get him to the deep sleep part of the cycle other wise he is likely to wake 10 min after you stop patting.  it looks like this might have happened a few times based on when you stopped patting and when his A started.  However, if you feel like you've been in there long enough (I see you are doing a good length of time) then you can also stop and use that last 10 mins to have a very short Y time, it's enough time to pee or drink a coffee :)

You're doing really well :)


Offline Katkirch

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Re: Advice on how to start teaching independent sleep to 12wo
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2018, 02:05:27 am »
Just wanted to reply to say thank you for the help and give an update!  I know when i'm browsing through other posts, I always like to know how things turned out.  After three days of doing W2S, he was still waking up a lot during his naps so I would end up having to stay with him for the rest of his nap.  I then increased his A time as you suggested by about 10 minutes and this did wonders.  He started going down really easily for his naps.  I don't have to bounce him to get him drowsy anymore.  After swaddling, I turn on the sound machine and give him his pacifier and he starts closing his eyes before I can walk across the room to the crib.  He knows the routine now and that it's time for sleeping.  He still wakes at his sleep cycle but doesn't continue to wake every 5-10 minutes after this like he used to.  I hold him through his jolts and then he'll sleep at least until he goes through another sleep cycle 40 minutes later.  His nighttime sleep got so much better.  For several weeks, he had been waking up a lot at night but for the last several nights, he has only woken up every several hours to eat.  I think he wasn't getting enough A time during the day so he was trying to make up for it at night.  Thanks so much for your help!  And for anyone having issues, keep going and ask for help!  I cried several times throughout the process in the last few weeks and almost gave up but I'm so glad now that I didn't.

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Re: Advice on how to start teaching independent sleep to 12wo
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2018, 20:52:31 pm »
  I know when i'm browsing through other posts, I always like to know how things turned out.
We love to know how things turned out too.

What a fabulous update!  I'm so pleased :)

Thank you for taking the time to post, it is always lovely to hear that another baby is sleeping like a baby ;)
Hope you'll stick around the boards, and perhaps pay it forward to other mums who are going through similar, sounds like your a master of shush/pat now.


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Re: Advice on how to start teaching independent sleep to 12wo
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2018, 18:56:03 pm »
Well, I spoke too soon.  I had a day where I could extend his naps and he would stay asleep without me staying for the whole nap.  And now we're back to me staying there for the whole time.  Everyone once and awhile, he'll have a decent nap where I can leave 25-30 minutes after he woke up but usually he keeps waking.  I stay until its been 20 minutes since the last wake-up but it never happens.  Eventually he's been sleeping for between 1.5 hours and 2 hours and I'm still there with him.  I told my husband that our son is not on an EASY schedule....its a EAS because there is basically no Y time.  After six nights of only waking 3-4 times, he is back to waking 7 times a night.  When it's not time to eat, we shush pat back to sleep but we are up for 25 minutes with him so I'm not sleeping much.  I'm exhausted and in desperate need of help.

I've tried adjusting his awake time to a bit shorter or a bit longer but he naps the same no matter what. 

Offline becj86

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Re: Advice on how to start teaching independent sleep to 12wo
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2018, 07:17:44 am »
Can you post his age and his EAS? Hopefully we can get you some Y time again ;) Sounds like you had some good progress from all your hard work. Do you think this could be a regression (often happens around 5-7 days after things start looking good and resolves on its own if you stay consistent for a few more days)?