Author Topic: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine  (Read 3534 times)

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Offline Matt'sMom

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12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
« on: June 19, 2018, 08:12:40 am »
hi
I am a first time mom. DS is 12 weeks today, feeling like an absolute failure as a mother :'(
Ever since DS was 6weeks old. I have mistaken that his tired cries as hunger cries. Thus,he was basically breast fed to sleep and most of the time asleep in my arms or on me. As far as i can remember he has never taken naps longer than 30 minutes except when DH put him in the sling/wrap and carry him.
(has he got use to sleeping on DH or me, another AP?)
We started EASY when he was 9 week-old , and his nap remained at 30 mins.

I met a mommy in the breastfeeding group and she shared EASY routine with me. I must admit I did not have full knowledge of EASY and was shush patting DS at my shoulder until he fall asleep during the 4s wind down routine. I realise this was wrong when i found this forum. I have introduced yet another AP prop to DS!!!!

Last few days I managed to successfully shush pat DS to sleep in his cot, he nap for 30 mins again and when I tried to extend it by shush patting he was so agitated and would not let me do it.
I am completely heartbroken to see him so tired and unable to sleep.

he takes 4 30 min naps every day, my days are now just filled with me getting him on this routine and trying to extend his short naps without much success

my question:

1) His nap is so short, i often struggle to keep to the routine of 3 hours unless I successfully extend his nap, what should I do here?
how do I extend his nap if he gets agitated and not let me shush pat him back to sleep in when he wakes from his 30 min nap. I have no success on this
2)Would it be wise for me if I perhaps put DS to have 1 nap using the sling/wrap to help him sleep longer. will that affect his sleep train. ( I would hate for him to get another AP prop) ultimately i hope eventually he can sleep independently. but i also worry about all these 30 min naps and him getting insufficient sleep
3)Since starting on EASY routine, I have basically not brought him down to the living room and kept him in our room to avoid further stimulation but now i am beginning to wonder whether I should have ( he sleeps in his own cot but its attached to our bed.) what is your opinion about that

here is a sample of his EASY routine , but most of it has been all over the place

WU/E 7:30
A
S 9:09 - 9:45

E 10:30 (crying and decide to df)
A
S 12:04 -12:35
S 13:20 -14:00 ( extend success)

E 14:10
A
S 15:25 -15:50

E 16:30
A
S Unable to put down for nap, DS fights to sleep

E 17:10
A
S 18:10 -18:32

A 18:40 BT routine bath w DH
E 19:30
S 20:24

E 1:25
E 5:00

Please help me
Matt's mom


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Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2018, 10:06:19 am »
Hello and welcome to BW forums.

Sorry to see you didn't get a reply yet, we do try to ensure all threads receive a reply within 24 hrs but it is not always possible.

Please please please stop feeling like a failure as a mother.  You are NOT a failure.  You have done everything you possibly could for your little baby.
Please do not feel that you have done everything wrong, or anything!  Babies need holding and babies need feeding these are not the wrong things to do for your LO, you have shown your LO lots of love and support and care, and that is what a GOOD mummy does. Please let go of the guilt.

Breast feeding on demand is the best start for your baby.  Yes some habits can form if you feed to sleep but this can be weaned, don't worry.  The benefits of BF in terms of getting the best food and the best comfort and bonding opportunity is worth any kind of AP or habit that has happened.  Don't worry.

Shush/pat for new borns is generally started in arms and continued until LO is asleep in the early days (then they are put in the cot) - this is what you have done and it is totally fine. Again don't worry.  The bonding gained by holding and soothing your baby is priceless, you have done him good, not harm.  Sure you might be exhausting yourself and it might not be sustainable long term (holding a new born for sleep is quite easy compared to holding a toddler for sleep when they are super heavy and you start to get a bad back, bad wrist etc), that's the idea behind the EASY routine and methods of sleep training, to aim for a respectful and sustainable method of soothing and helping your baby to sleep whilst also taking care of yourself.  But you must never feel you did the wrong thing by holding and comforting your baby.  Cuddles are never a bad thing :)
Many people do not find BW until their LO is much older and whatever age your LO is we can support you and help you to work towards a suitable routine and sleep training methods.
The only thing we don't agree with here is leaving a baby to cry alone, no controlled crying, no crying it out.

Let me see if I can answer some of your questions.
Last few days I managed to successfully shush pat DS to sleep in his cot,
This is great :)  Doing the WD (wind down, the 4s) is fine in arms but getting him to actually nod off in the cot is wonderful progress. It is always okay to lift him back up if he is too agitated or unsettled, shush/pat in arms and again lay him down when calm. Each baby is an individual so there is no timing restriction on this process, you do what is needed, and put down when suitable.  For instance I learned with my LO that he needed to be in his cot before the "seven mile stare" because otherwise his view point changed and he would have to start all over again with the process of falling to sleep staring at a new spot, also when he woke mid nap he needed his seven mile stare to have the same spot to stare at.  We had previously been winding down sitting and actually this had caused his seven mile stare spot to be a plant behind me in the corner of the room (strong tonal contrast between the light wall and the dark plant) so when I moved him to the cot he didn't like it - getting him in the cot first really helped once he found his new spot and got used to it.

You might find that if you continue to shush/pat beyond the 30 mins your LO will learn to stay asleep longer.  Shush/pat is advised to continue for 20 mins after sleep to help LO get to the deep sleep stage, if though your LO is waking at 30 mins I would go beyond that time to help him.  It might be possible for you to shush/pat to sleep, leave for 10 mins to get yourself a super fast cuppa, and go back in to see him through the 30 min mark.  Shush/pat for as long as needed, pick up if necessary and continue in arms to calm him.

His nap is so short, i often struggle to keep to the routine of 3 hours unless I successfully extend his nap, what should I do here?
If LOs do not sleep the full nap they might be hungry earlier than the 3hr E time. In this case feed earlier, it's fine.  There is no requirement to feed after every wake up though so if you tried for a nap and it was short you don't automatically need to feed if it's only been 2hr and he is not hungry.

how do I extend his nap if he gets agitated and not let me shush pat him back to sleep
The description I gave above about starting shush/pat before he wakes is called W2S (wake to sleep) here is a FAQ
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
Look at naps option 1.  You always adapt to suit your LO.
This method is really helpful because you begin soothing before he fully wakes so there is great chance of success.
If he does fully wake and you try to resettle I would suggest not continuing for more than 40 mins, if he is on the verge of sleep then maybe more than 40 mins but if he is kick up a big fuss then perhaps less than 40 mins.  If you are starting to feel frustrated give up on that nap and get on with your A time - it isn't worth the upset.

Would it be wise for me if I perhaps put DS to have 1 nap using the sling/wrap to help him sleep longer. will that affect his sleep train. ( I would hate for him to get another AP prop) ultimately i hope eventually he can sleep independently.
Lots of people work on one nap at a time.  If you would like to do this it is fine. LOs tend to form habits so I would suggest if you chose one nap for the cot do that same nap every day in the cot for consistency. If you choose one (or more) naps in the sling or pram then do the same ones each day.  This way you are likely to form the cot habit more easily rather than switching it about every day.
Whilst it might take longer overall doing one nap per day it is easier on parents and helps to keep LO better rested.  Don't worry about it.  Once one nap is in place in the cot you can choose another to work on.  You might also decide you want to keep a nap or two outside the cot, this can make it much easier to attend BF groups or other baby groups. Again, if it's possible try to go out the same time each day.  it's actually very handy to have a LO who can sleep in the sling or pram, mine wouldn't (independent sleeper in his cot) and it did cause me some struggles which I had to deal with.

Since starting on EASY routine, I have basically not brought him down to the living room and kept him in our room to avoid further stimulation but now i am beginning to wonder whether I should have ( he sleeps in his own cot but its attached to our bed.) what is your opinion about that
It sounds to me like this is probably not particularly good for your own sanity.
I know you care about your LO and are worried about the amount of sleep he is getting but you must also take care of yourself.  Sitting in one room, frequently a darkened room, shush/patting the day away is not good for anyone's mood.  Your LO will also learn the difference between "day" and "night" or "nap" by where you are in the house too.  When it is Activity time, go and do something in a nicely lit room with the sun coming in, or get outside.  Go to a baby group or for a walk, get some fresh air and sun.
As said before you can choose one nap to work on and dedicate that part of the day to really focusing on the sleep training. Then get out somewhere.

Your EASY.
Looking at your times I would suggest you try to start your wind down a bit earlier and aim to have LO asleep by 1hr 20 or 1hr 30 since he woke from his night sleep or previous nap.  Your first A time is a touch long for his age, it is impossible to get it spot on because you are shush/patting and hoping for him to nod off, I know, but if you start a bit earlier you might get him to sleep by 1hr 20 and this may help his nap length.

After the first nap I suggest you time the A time, we look for sleep cues but watching the clock can also be helpful. A time is all the time from when he wakes to when he sleeps, it including any time spent when he was awake and you were trying to resettle and any time you are doing wind down.  On your sample the A time between nap 1 and nap 2 is almost 2hr 20.  This is likely because you've been focusing on trying to get on the EASY routine and this is one way of sleep training by sticking to set times for a while, but it is quite hard too.  Instead note the time he wakes from nap 1, try to get him back to sleep but if he doesn't then use the wake up time as the start of the A and aim to get him back to sleep by 1hr 20 again.  This will help to avoid OT.  Some people even reduce the A time following a short nap, if he is looking very tired and giving signals you can put him down earlier, say 1hr.

he was basically breast fed to sleep
It doesn't look like you are still feeding to sleep. If you are we can look at ways to gradually wean this so that it moves from sleep time.

I hope this helps some. Sorry there is so much to read and wade through when you must be feeling so short of time and very tired.
Please feel welcome to ask further questions and to post updates on how you are getting on.
And please, no more guilt, you are a great mum and have been doing all you have through love and care :)


Offline Matt'sMom

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Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2018, 14:36:03 pm »
hi, thank you so very much for your reply. Am sorry for taking so long to reply. Things has been busy with family coming to visit us, unfortunately Matthew's nap remained at 30 min and some even less now.

Thank you for your comforting words, feeling guilty for teaching my son the wrong way to sleep constantly plus so heartbreaking to see him so tired and not sleeping well.

You are so right, I loved the bonding of carrying my son, cuddling him and also breast feeding him to sleep, but I know it is not sustainable and not helping him to sleep better. so i decide to change it

I want to list out our latest EASY and let you have a look to see where I went wrong. I started reducing his A time to 1.3 hour but his nap remained at 30mins, plus he was hardly sleepy, seems so alert at the time of WD, perhaps i need to do more, not sure where i went wrong.
Wind down for nap consist of closing the blind, singing one song, one prayer and now i start to sh pat him from cot.
Wind down for BT all the above except we have a bath and EBM in bottle for him first by DH

WU: 7:45  E:7:50  S: 9:15-9:45 (A time=1.30) I generally start sh/pat at 1 hour A time, perhaps its too early ?
A:9:45, E:10:30, S:11:20 - 11:40 (A time = 1.35) sh/pat start 10:55
DS tried to falls asleep again 11:40 - 12:00 but never went into deep sleep, only to the stage where eyes closed & open and irregular breathing then he awoke ( not sure what to make of this, perhaps he was too overtired?)
A:12:00, S: 13:15 - 13:35 ( A time =1.35)
E:13:40, S:15:15 - 15:45 (A time =1.40)
S: 16:10 - 16:30 ( nap extended by using pacifier when he wakes up)
E: 17:00, S:18:10 - 18:30 (A: 1.40) sh/pat started at 17:50
E:19:00 & BT bath
BT:20:10
NW/E : 00:30
NW/E: 4:40
EWU: 6:00 (resettled by DH using paci), WU 7:00
this was 2 days ago

today EASY is completely out, I do not know why

WU: 6:45, E:6:50, S: 8:50 -9:20 ( A time- 2.0), I started sh pat at 7:40 but DS was not sleepy or drowsy the whole time until i gave him paci at 8:30 or thereabouts

E:10:00 , S:11:20 - 11:45 ( A time - 2.0) again ! started sh pat around 1 hour mark
A: 11:50, S:13:00 - 13:33 ( A time - 1.15) paci given at the beginning of sh pat
E:13:45, S:15:05 -15:20 (A time -1.30) paci given at the beginning of sh pat
A: 15:20, S:16:20 - 16:45 (A time - 1.0) paci given at the beginning of sh pat - i start at 45-50 min mark
after that i tried to offer him another nap from 17:15 to 18:30 with paci help and he didn't sleep at all. I decided to do bed time routine and put him to bed

BT :19:45, but he woke up 30 mins later and I had to resettle. may i know why did he wake up at 30 min mark, did he think it was a nap? or was it over tiredness ?

as you can see because of his short nap, the EASY routine for the last cycle before bed time is either giving me a too long of A time that he can manage? what should I do, was i right to try to get him to nap at 17:15 again? also my EASY routine is always different everyday as he sometimes just nap shorter than 30 min.

I noted that sh pat on bed don't work for me all the time, like today for example he was completely distracted and not drowsy or sleepy at all i also tried putting him on the shoulder and it does not work too. do you have any tips as to where I went wrong or could use another method? DS does not like me patting him on the back it seems to irritate him even more. I had success with patting his thigh/butt area but today it did not work.
Should I consider PUPD?

Recently I realised that DS like to suck my shoulder when we do sh pat at the beginning and we started using pacifier. I wonder whether its the thing now that stops him from sleeping until I give him the paci for nap.
He sucks it vigorously and falls out all the time, needed to be re inserted. I am beginning to think its a bad prop. Should I stop giving him paci as we have only used it for 1 week. will it hinder him from learning independent sleeping? but it does soothe him.

I was also thinking what is the next step for me to encourage DS to sleep independently, any suggestions? feeling stuck since nap is just going from bad to worse

May I ask does his A time increase now that he is 3 months old? perhaps its more than 1.30 now? or should i still aim for 1.20.

Thanks for the support and reply, I feel comforted knowing I can get help. I now take him out of our room for A time, I certainly has benefited from that.  :)

Matt's mom

 



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Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2018, 18:47:23 pm »
Hi there
I'll try to get back tomorrow to read through and answer your questions. For now here is a link to A times:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0
3 months is 1hr 20 - 1hr 30.
They are guidance only, some LOs do need longer or shorter but it's somewhere to start when putting a routine in place.

We can look at adapting the shush/pat but PUPD is not suitable for any Lo under 4 months and we usually suggest not until 6 months and that at any age it is a last resort method.  It can involve a great deal of crying and although LO is assured by your presence (therefore stress is low) they can lose calories which is why it's not suitable for young babies. During shush/pat you do pick up to calm LO and hold until fully calm then put down and this can be repeated if needed but it's not quite the same as the PUPD method. Hope that helps.


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Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2018, 09:07:06 am »
Hi again.
I've had a chance now to read through your post properly.

I really do not see anything at all that you are doing "wrong".  I do see that your LO is not sleeping well in the day at all, some 15 and 20 min naps, 30 mins at best, not one single time he sleeps longer.   As you are doing a suitable wind down and trying various ways to sooth him and comfort him to sleep I do not see that there is anything you could or could be doing that you are not already.  The A time is fine, yes it goes long at times but this is not you it is LO not sleeping, we can't force them to sleep we can only offer the right setting and roughly the right time which is what you are doing.
I think you must be exhausted by all these naps as he isn't settling even once for you to get a small break.

Is there anywhere at all he sleeps longer?  In a sling, on DH chest, in the stroller, car, anywhere at all that LO actually sleeps for say 1hr or 1hr 30 or 2hr? (I do not mean night sleep because I see you get a long stretch or two at night which is good at least).
If you fed to sleep would he sleep longer?  If you held him on your shoulder throughout the entire nap would he sleep longer?
Does jiggling or bouncing help?  Rocking (either side ways in arms or back and forth in arms)? Walking?

Are there any health issues with LO?
Was he born full term? Any problems with delivery or after?
Any illness?
Does he have reflux or silent reflux?
Does he have plenty of wet nappies and is his poo okay?
Is he gaining weight as expected?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to look at the bigger picture to see what could be stopping him having a sleep.

For now, I'd like you to try an experiment to begin wind down at 1hr A time, I know it's short, let's just see what happens.

With pacifier use.  If a baby is or becomes reliant on it for sleep then the SIDS guidelines are to continue until 6 months.
Tracy Hogg's (BW) advice was to use a paci during the vigorous sucking then let it drop out and use other soothing methods to sleep or if it doesn't drop out then to remove when the sucking becomes gentle, not vigorous.  It is up to you if you use a paci or not and also up to you if you remove before sleep or keep re-plugging.  Re-plugging might mean a better nap, it can also mean you have to keep doing this for many months until LO learns to do it themselves.  SIDS guidance suggests it can reduce the risk of SIDS.


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Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2018, 14:13:19 pm »
hi Creations

thank you for your reply
Yes I am completely exhausted, ever since we started EASY at 9 weeks till now, he has never taken naps longer than 30mins using sh/ pat, granted I did manage to extend some of those naps for another 30mins. Thankfully DH has taken over night feeding with bottled EBM so I can get some rest.

I was thinking perhaps my WD is too short, every time when i sit down for WD, DS is still quite alert, he doesn't seem relaxed and ready for sleep. Either that or I have missed his sleeping/tired cues and was either too early or late. Now I generally just go by the clock if he don't show any sign or I missed it. I find if he started to fuss it is usually too late because he will cry badly before he finally goes to sleep. but i have yet to identify his cues, he yawns constantly

How do you help your LO to relax/ drowsy before going to WD or during WD?
I noted that he is very curious now and wants to be carried and walked around ever since I brought him out from his room to the living room downstairs. He usually start to kick his legs in excitement when i take him out of the room after a nap.

DS has taken 1 hour naps before, they were in sling/wrap carried by DH or me sometimes also 30min nap. Today, I resettled using sh pat on shoulder when he woke up from one of his nap of 20 mins and let him slept on my shoulder for the very first time to see how long will he sleep, he slept for around 1 hour and 10 minutes before got woken by DH portering about in our room. but i cannot see how I can do that for him in the long term. my shoulder hurts after he slept on it for over 1 hour.

I can only recalled once that he did slept for 1 hour in his cot for naps, this was when he turned 2 month old and had his immunisation that day, the late afternoon nap was 1 hour long +/-.

I did use to walk and rock him a little to coax him to sleep, but I have never kept any sleep log until I started EASY routine. So I cannot remember whether he slept longer or not. He certainly started sleeping little around 6-7 weeks.

Are there any health issues with LO?
Was he born full term? Any problems with delivery or after?
Any illness?
Does he have reflux or silent reflux?
Does he have plenty of wet nappies and is his poo okay?
Is he gaining weight as expected?

There are no health issues with DS
born on week 39 - by elective C sec
No illness
He used to spit up a bit of curd like milk when he was younger after feeding, this has now gotten less. It was really more like Happy Spitter, I never noted if he has any silent reflux symptom but he feeds well and hardly fuss at the breast or bottle. He does cough frequently during bottle feeding and hiccuping sometimes more than once a day ( which i put down to over tiredness)
( I will take a look at this and see whether he has any sign or symptom)
He now feed at 2.5 hour or 3 hour because a lot of the time his E clashes with S. ( before EASY he was fed on demand or 2 hourly)

He has plenty of wet nappies and he usually poo twice a day ( yellow seedy bf baby poo)
His latest check up and weighing showed that he put on 1kg since month2 and was told by Dr that his weight gain is in the normal range.

I will try for 1 hr A time and report back. It is certainly very short. I must admit I am losing steam with this routine, the only thing that keep me going is the hope that his nap length will improve when we eventually get it right. I remember DH asking me where is my Y time when we first started EASY. 

Thanks again
Matt's mom Suzie



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Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2018, 07:13:08 am »
Looking through all the information you've given I really do not think it is something you are doing wrong or that the routine is "wrong".  If it was the EASY routine that was causing a problem with sleep we would be able to look back at how he used to sleep and work from there to get some better naps in, but it looks like he never napped well, not even in arms.  Even the slightly better naps you describe before the routine seemed very rare, on DH in the sling or in your arms on your shoulder, but these are still not great naps.
I would also expect to see that at some point in the day he'd take a better nap even if that was with some help to resettle or even if he was in the cot and you kept a hand on him throughout the nap.
It seems to me that you've tried pretty much everything to get LO asleep and he still isn't sleeping...
...which makes me think more in terms of something bothering him, discomfort waking him up, perhaps silent reflux.

For now you could try one nap per day in the sling or in arms (on shoulder etc) to see if he can sleep a bit longer.
You could also try co-sleeping at nap time the way you do at night with you on the bed and LO on the co-sleeper cot and see if that helps him relax enough to nap better.
For naps in the cot it is fine if you need to keep a hand on him or shush/pat or a little rocking throughout the nap to keep him asleep, this is part of sleep training and can be reduced and weaned. The idea is to get a good nap by helping him and then we can look at moving towards more independent sleeping.

If you had any success with the 1hr A time it is okay to try that a couple of times. If it made no difference to his nap then you go back to the 1hr 20 - 30 you were on.  The 1hr was just an experiment to see what happened in case he had lots of OT or could relax better at a very short time.

Continue to bring him out of your room for his activity time.  Babies like to see what is going on and look around, hold things, shown things, be spoken and sung to etc, if the level of stimulation is too low (in a quiet dim room) he might not be ready to sleep well.  Your LO sounds like he is very interested in the world :)

I'm going to ask for another pair of eyes to come and have a look at your thread to see if I missed something too.


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Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2018, 09:25:40 am »
Hi creation

Thank you for replying so promptly
I have tried 1 hr A times for a couple of naps. DS really fights it ( lately it seems most of the naps involves some crying before he goes to sleep)
One occasion I brought him to the room and when I sat down for WD he started crying and continued until I stand up and walk around. And just to be sure I did the sitting and standing up 3 more times after that. For that nap he eventually slept at A time 2 hour for 20 min clearly upset I brought him up early.

Today I tried again and he was fine with the WD but started crying as soon as I swaddle him. 1st nap of the.day use to be the easiest to put him to sleep but I even struggle with that now. Today morning nap he slept at A time 1h 40m for 20 mins after hard cry I started WD at 1 hour mark

Shush pat on shoulder use to work like a charm until I try to up it and put him down and shush pat at bed. Now it does not seem to soothe him any longer. But it could possibly because he has turn 3 months now. On some occasion shush pat on shoulder still works . He cries as soon as I put him down in bed for shush pat now or play around for a while and start to fuss.

Do you think he has severe over tiredness and finding it hard to settle for nap ? Sometimes he gets really hyper around 1hr 40-50 min Mark if he don't sleep
His night sleep remains the same
BT around 7/8
NW/E 1/2 am
NW/E 4/5 am
Wake up early 6 ,sometimes able to be resettle sometimes not
I usually start the day around 7 for him
BT he usually goes down fairly easily perhaps because he had bath and bottle and would let me shush pat him in bed

I will try one nap with sling or in my arms, or swing and see .
He always nap in the co sleeper cot with me lying next to him as his nap is so short I sometimes tried to wake2sleep or hold his leg for him. There have been times where I was exhausted so I took a nap while he was napping too.

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Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2018, 18:21:34 pm »
OK, don't continue with the 1hr A time then. It was just that his naps were SO short I wondered if he was very OT so it was an experiment.

Another option could be to try longer than normal A time although I can see in your EASY logs that you've already done this - which means I'm a bit lost.

Another experiment could be to try a bath before nap time.  Perhaps inconvenient in the long run but it may be worth seeing if the bath helps to relax him. You could try once perhaps?  What do you think?

If you are able to shush/pat in arms, on your shoulder for him to relax or nod off, you can continue to do this, then with each nap when he is really relaxed bring him slowly into a horizontal position whilst still shush/patting in arms. If you can get him to sleep on you  horizontally this would be a step towards sleep training but if it always turns out to be only 15-30 min sleep no matter where you are then perhaps a trip to the doc to ask about a check up or check for reflux to see why he doesn't sleep in the day.

Hopefully someone else will be able to stop by and have a look at your thread too, in case there is something I'm not thinking of.


Offline Matt'sMom

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Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2018, 22:57:46 pm »
Can I ask a silly question? In order to aim for 1h 20 m A time, how much earlier should I start wind down? Would it be at around 1 hr A time if Tracy said it takes 20 mins to go through the sleep stages? How is that different from starting wind down at 1 hr the way you suggested?



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Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2018, 08:14:03 am »
The A time is any time awake, from eyes open and awake to eyes shut and asleep. It includes all feeding, nappy change, play, and wind down.
When there are difficulties getting LO to sleep it is pretty impossible to time it perfectly so that the wind down is complete and LO sleeps at the time you plan, but when a routine settles down it is much much easier to know when to start the wind down to get LO asleep for the planned time.
If your LO takes 20 mins to wind down (as Tracy said, and in the early days with my LO I could see the stages, the seven miles stare, the eyes nodding etc and he was asleep at exactly 20 mins, I was amazed) then you need to start 20 min before the planned S time.  With a 1hr A you'd need to start at 40 min, it is very short I know, barely enough time for anything.  With a 1hr 20 A time you'd start WD at 1hr aiming for LO to sleep at 1hr 20.

Now, just to throw a spanner in the works some LOs do not like a long WD and some need longer.  Spirited LOs I hear need longer..  My own DS eventually hated a long WD.  He like to be up and about and active for almost his entire A time and then have a quick nappy change, song, and into bed. The WD was basically one song, so approx 3 mins. If he didn't appear ready to go down I repeated the song until he indicated he wanted his bed, other times he put his hand on my mouth to shut me up before the song was over and would pull back in my arms indicating to put him down.  We had a developmental phase of short napping so at 3.5/4 months I tried a new WD, long the full 20 mins, he kicked up a huge fuss.  I suspect (with hindsight) he really wanted a longer A time not a longer WD.

To be honest I am not seeing anything in your information which suggests your LO is clearly UT or OT or wants a shorter or longer WD or that it is props which he relies on for sleep.  If I could see any of those things I could support you a little better than I am.


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Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2018, 12:27:57 pm »
Hi Creation

I think I got the A time idea wrong for starting wind down  ;D instead of starting WD at 40min I started at 1hr mark
But that's ok I will try again tomorrow and see what is the outcome. I think DS is tired because he would cry after waking up from most of the short nap.
Am still getting to know DS, today I tried rocking him till drowsy and put him to the bed for one nap and it worked, but the next nap it didn't. He just wanted to lie on my shoulder and slowly doze off without me moving ( I saw his eyes closing and put him on the bed, he drifted off to sleep himself. I have no idea what works and what don't. Will Keep trying! DS is on the spirited side I think. I will note longer WD for him and see.
I will discuss with DH about a dr visit. My previous paed does not think DS has severe reflux that required medication.

I was thinking of putting DS in a hammock sling for his naps and at night he will still sleep in his cot. I wonder if anyone has experience of that.

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Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2018, 18:58:49 pm »
Hi Matt’s Mom! I definitely feel your pain! My LO just turned 12 weeks but he went through weeks of short naps and it drove me crazy! I felt like I was always in his room resettling him and he took so many naps through the day that I couldn’t do much. It started to get better last week, he finally took longer naps but unfortunately we’re back to square one with short naps :( Its hard not to blame yourself but don’t! Hang in there, I think it helps to here that there are other moms out there who are going through something similar :)

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Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2018, 10:34:02 am »
Thanks for paying it forward and showing your support babiiprycess :)

Matt'smom, the 1hr A time really is just an experiment.
It's great you managed to get him down for a nap - but was this again a very short nap?

My previous paed does not think DS has severe reflux that required medication.
Just from my own experience and from reading threads over the years it cn be the case that a doctor doesn't think reflux is bad enough for medication until you have taken LO several times.  My DS had silent reflux and every time he saw a health visitor or GP they said he was a happy spitter because he would politely smile at them, they didn't see the screaming and problems with sleep. I eventually demanded a referral to the paed at the hospital who diagnosed DS with minutes of entering her office and put him on medication.  The change was clear.
When he was older he needed a medication increase but again I was up against it with our regular doctors who said he was on maximum dose.  With support on the BW forums I was encouraged to follow it up further and again the paedi at the hospital confirmed he needed an increase, he was taking roughly a quarter what he needed so his reflux was not under control.
This is not a dig on doctors, but sometimes it isn't clear to them just how bad the situation is unless you make it very clear.

I was thinking of putting DS in a hammock sling for his naps and at night he will still sleep in his cot. I wonder if anyone has experience of that.
Not sure what you mean by hammock sling.  Many people choose to nap LO in a sling though.  Just make sure you have a safety approved one and LO is in a good position, can breath etc.


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Re: 12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2018, 14:49:57 pm »
Hi Matt’s Mom! I definitely feel your pain! My LO just turned 12 weeks but he went through weeks of short naps and it drove me crazy! I felt like I was always in his room resettling him and he took so many naps through the day that I couldn’t do much. It started to get better last week, he finally took longer naps but unfortunately we’re back to square one with short naps :( Its hard not to blame yourself but don’t! Hang in there, I think it helps to here that there are other moms out there who are going through something similar :)

Hi babyprycess,thank you for dropping a message, am so grateful. It does help to know that there are other moms out there going through this. I think being a first time mom and going from a full time professional to a stay at home mom it's been tough on me. I try my best for my darling son everyday. It's just about naps everyday!! .
Hope naps improve for you and your LO. At the very least he has show you he can nap for more than an hour!! Am still waiting for my lo to do a long nap for me.