12 weeks on short naps help EASY routine

[Matt'sMom]

hi Creation

Matt'smom, the 1hr A time really is just an experiment.
It's great you managed to get him down for a nap - but was this again a very short nap?

unfortunately yes it is still the same 30min nap

I will try to see another doctor and let him take a look. I don't fully know what is silent reflux got to read up on the internet. How did silent reflux affect your DS ? was he doing short naps too?
I read in Tracy book BWSAYP, she mentioned that some babies around 8 to 16 weeks might start taking 20 - 40 power naps , I wonder is that developmental issue?


This is what I meant. see attached photo
I read that it is a bit like a swing and will involve rocking LO to sleep. I think putting him to sleep in his cot 4-5 times daily for naps is really exhausting not taking into account of resettling.
I wonder would it affect his night sleep in cot if I do so. plus will it be difficult to wean from this swing for naps when he is older. 

Thank you so much for the support.

[Matt'sMom]

Sorry, it seems i do not know how to use the insert quote  ...

my reply is in the blue box

[babiiprycess]

I totally understand! I’m a first mom too! It will get better I have to tell myself this everyday and also keep in mind this is temporary he’s going to grow up so fast! I might actually use some of the techniques creations mentioned!

[creations]

Ah an Amby hammock, fabulous!  My DS used his from birth to 9 months. Love it.  At around 9-10 months he turned in it and I knew it that was the endof the hammock for him, dangerous after they turn.
They are great, make sure the head end is high enough to give him an incline, it will help with reflux if this is one of the problems (although honestly I am starting to think your LO has silent reflux and would be worth a meds trial to see if it helps but I am not a medical professional).
I sleep trained in the amby at night and until 10wks in a motion-free travel cot in the family room for day naps but at 10 wks my DS had ideas of his own and refused to sleep in the travel cot so from then all naps and nights were in the hammock.
I found if I sat close I could put a firm hand on DS and give the hammock a small bounce up down, almost a vibration.  We used this instead of shush/pat.  The patting bothered him (it can be uncomfortable with reflux).  You can wean the amount of bouncing/swinging so that it is tiny then motionless, and when baby kicks they bounce themselves so it's not a prop. Follow the safety rules of course, very important.
Honestly when I had to do the move at 9-10 months I had a horrible 3 days. His cot was in a different room so his entire sleep environment changed. He refused the hammock and the cot and I pretty much stayed up all of night 1 to be by his side at the cot.  After 3 days though he was sleeping happily and independently again.  It felt like a looooong time getting through the 3 days but when you think about it 3 days is nothing.

On this link to the CRC board there are two threads (sticky) at the top on reflux.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=13.0
Silent reflux is basically reflux but less obvious, there is rarely or never any actual spitting up or it happens but smaller amounts which might be long after eating.  Lots of the other symptoms are the same though.  Any LO in pain will find it hard to sleep properly - and as you know I am otherwise stumped as to why your LO never sleeps longer than 10 - 30 mins.
My DS didn't get medication until almost 6 months old, they "say" they grow out of it at 6 months...well mine didn't (and lots don't). He needed medication until 2yo.  Since then we have flare ups and a couple of times a year need meds again for a few weeks then we find we can stop. He is 7yo now and I feel that each year he needs less medication, he probably hasn't had any in a year or so.
No one wants their child on medication, but there are other aspects to consider as well as the lack of sleep.

How is your LOs eating?

i do not know how to use the insert quote

click and drag across the text you want to quote to highlight the section and then hit the "quote" button and you'll just get the bit you want in your post. Then you can go back and select another bit to quote again if you like
You'll get the hang of it.

[Matt'sMom]

Hi Creations
The baby hammock i have is not exactly Amby but something similar, I will try your method and see if it works with DS

Re Silent reflux, I had a quick read, for the moment I can only see DS show symptoms of following
1) coughing / choked during bottle feeding
2) hiccuping - this is quite frequent, especially around 1 hr after E and nearly time for nap!
3) he does arch his back after bf with me - have been doing this since young, I always thought that was because he is over tired. but he does not do this when DH bottle feed him.
4) he has excess saliva now, so i hear swallowing but not sure if he is swallowing his saliva or acid reflux.

DH does not think DS has all of silent reflux symptoms  .
may i ask does LO have to be crying and whinny all the time for it to be reflux? DS is a fairly happy baby with exception of difficulties and crying during sleep time. We don't have long crying or crying after feeding. He doesn't seem to cry in discomfort or pain after feeding or even after 1 hour of feeding. and no problem with night feeds as well. He would happily sit in the rocker chair and look around during his A time and when bored fusses a bit,  I will generally lift him up and walk around carrying him or just turn his rocker to another side.

How is your LOs eating?

DS is EBF, so when he latch I don't have idea of how much he drank, he usually bf around 20-30mins (both side) if I can get him at proper hungry,
currently on 3 hr EASY but actually mostly feed at 2.5hr because his E always clashes with S due to short naps
Lately he has been quite distracted when feeding, bob on and off the breast and look up and down, comes back have a few sucks and then started talking to me. I think the 2.5hr feeding might be the reason. he might not be very hungry. he feeds about 10-15mins.  What should I do here?

I sometimes BF him at 2 hour mark before he goes to bath for BT
BT- he also gets a bottle of 5oz EBM, fed after bath by DH. sometimes he could finish the bottle sometimes not depending on how long he latched with me before bath. I think his A time to bedtime is always too long for him to manage. He just want to get to bed. something I cannot do about as his nap is so short.

for night feed he wakes up twice , DH bottle feed him 5oz of EBM each time

He hardly fusses or cry during feeding. and we always burp him. DH is better at this then me. I just burp him quickly or until i hear a burp. Sometimes I will hear a wet burp and then I will hear him swallowing. sometimes it turns into a hiccup. This was more frequent during his early weeks now less.

so all in all I don't know what to make of it about possibly DS having silent reflux, what do you think from what I have described?

May I ask you about sleep associations, do you think DS has this? at what age does LO start to develop sleep association? I read somewhere that if LO is doing short nap that is because they have sleep association, in my case I am thinking nurse to sleep. The reason I think this is because last couple days I have been working at getting DS to lie horizontally on my arms while I sh pat him moving from my shoulder. I noticed that he started rooting for my breast and wanting to suck it when he in my arms while crying or could it just be his need to suckle for soothing to sleep? We stopped using the paci since the beginning of this week. If its the latter we might just go back and let him use it.

[creations]

may i ask does LO have to be crying and whinny all the time for it to be reflux?

No not all the time. Mine was always very happy when I took him to the doctor!
There were particular times mine cried, more so when the reflux got worse, sleep time was the worst and screaming back arching at the worst nights. Mine was an independent sleeper from early on so I knew it wasn't related to a prop or inability to self sooth although don't forget it still took me 5-6 months before I got him diagnosed (he saw several GPS and HVs).
To me it sounds like plenty of symptoms for silent reflux, I already suspected reflux from the sleep pattern so any additional symptom feels like additional reason to investigate further with a paediatrician. Perhaps ask for a meds trial? If it isn't reflux the meds won't help, if it is reflux you'll see improvement on the meds after a time for the meds to start working.

I read somewhere that if LO is doing short nap that is because they have sleep association, in my case I am thinking nurse to sleep.

If it was only a feed to sleep prop it would be easy to tell the prop was there (you'd be doing it andhe'd be sleeping and for a lot longer than 30 min!) and relatively easy to wean it to. I don't feel this is a prop issue.

[*Ali*]

Babies should be fed on demand so if he is rooting at nap time then I'd feed him.

Have you tried lying tummy to tummy with him on your bed and feeding him to sleep then either staying with him or sneaking away? At this age that was about the only way my youngest would nap for any length of time.

It does sound like you are spending a lot of time focussing on getting him go sleep. That must be mindnumbingly frustrating  What if you just go out with him for the day in the buggy? Just feed when he fusses and let him fall asleep whenever he wants without worrying about whether it's nap time or feeding time? Or just snuggle up on the sofa at home and watch a boxset while you snuggle and feed and let him sleep when he wants. It might help you see his natural patterns rather than being so focussed on exact A times.

[Matt'sMom]

Hi Ali, I stop feeding on demand since starting EASY.
Yes I used to nurse him to sleep when he was younger after 4weeks but his nap length was only at 30min and that was why I started EASY hoping it will help
Thank you for the suggestion of looking at his natural rhythm pattern instead of following the clock. I think I might give that a try. It has been a long time since I just let him be without coaxing him to nap   
I am so preoccupied with worry of introducing bad habits and avoiding nurse to sleep so it's not a prop that I generally don't let him fall asleep when feeding. I thought he is at age now where bad habits forms quickly, I don't want him to rely on nursing to sleep.

But lately he has taken naps on the sling and on me even though naps still remained short.

Your suggestion has helped me rethink this.

[creations]

Try not to worry about "bad habits".  Anything can be weaned if/when you need to.

[*Ali*]

Please relax and enjoy your baby. Even Tracy who devised the EASY routine said it's only a problem if it's a problem. Lots of us, including me with my first, only started EASY when baby was older having fed or held to sleep previously. If that works better for you (and your sanity!) then no harm in doing that for now. If the time comes that you need to change things then you can take another look.

[Matt'sMom]

Hi Ali & Creations

DS is now 18 weeks, how time just flew by 

We are still waiting to see a specialist consultant for his suspected silent reflux

I took things a lot easier with naps now and it has helped a lot. Thank you so much to both of you for your advise. Lately its easier to put him for naps. I noted that starting this last week his A time has increase to 1h45 - 1h55 sometimes even to 2h. I sometimes carry him in sling ( I find it easier so I can be out and about or be doing chores at home) and some naps in the crib and he seems to be ok with that. unfortunately his nap remains at 30min for the majority of the time, I have come to accept that & wait for him to extend it when he is ready.

For the naps in crib, I do our usual wind down with 4S, and put him in crib drowsy but awake ( sometimes very drowsy). and he would drift to sleep himself, I put my hand on him and jiggle it a bit to help if he has trouble sleeping. Lately he has extended a few of the nap himself ( he woke up at 30m mark and then took about 15-20min to go back to sleep again) some 1h 20m, some 50min, sometimes I would see him stir and try to go back to sleep but not successful.

However, bed time has now become harder. I would do the same as nap time but he was not able to drift off to sleep,he become wide awake every time I put him down.  After various times of me putting him down and picking him up on my shoulder again ( perhaps I shouldn't do that but am not able to shush pat him to sleep while he is wide awake in bed), I usually took longer than 1hour putting him to bed and always with shush pat on my shoulder then in my arms and already asleep transfer to bed. He would wake up at 30min into bedtime sleep and then 2 hours after that.

As he always has long stretches of night sleep, I would really like to preserve that. I wonder has that got to do with his A time increasing. I think he might be too tired at bed time and making it harder to falls asleep.

DS on 3hr EASY and because of short naps, I usually do a 5th nap so that it would not be too long stretch of awake time to bed time. It has worked well. Now that his A time has increased, it looked like there are no longer time for 5th nap or else BT would be late, but the stretch to BT is still fairly long from his 4th nap if you know what I mean

Am not sure should he be on 3.5/4hour EASY? but can he? if his naps are still very short. I now bf DS on demand as well it seems to have help with his spit up and reflux.
He has 4 naps now, bed time is usually quite early but he would wake up after 30 min into the sleep and i had to resettle. I don't know what is the right time to put him for bedtime anymore. I list 2 days of my EASY routine, hoping you guys can help me, or is it something that i just have to ride it out until his naps lengthens regularly?.

WU-6:37
E-7:56 ( didn't feed long, he was fed at 5:00am NW)
A-1h51m
S-8:29-9:04 (wd 1h30,pd1h44m)
E-9:26
A-1h35m
S-12:59-13:25 (WD1h20m I saw DS rubbing his eyes, PD 1h33m)
S-13:42 - 15:03 (he woke up at 26m and extended the nap on his own) Should I try WD at 1h20m for all naps to see if possible that his A time is still really actually be around 1h35m
E-15:15
A-2h9m
S- 17:13-17:42
A:3h
BT/S: 21:00 ( I started WD at 1h20m, and was shooting for 1h45m BT but couldn't put DS down and went through various Putting down and picking up again as he become wide awake as soon as I put him down but was drowsy at my shoulder during WD, I also tried to let him have a go and falling asleep and thus the reason why his Awake time ended at 3h, perhaps not consistent enough but now I have a fear that it will take really long to settle him to sleep and I try to help him at earlier time

NW/E: 23:00
NW/E:3:09
WU:6:20


WU- 6:20
E- 7:00
A- 1h57m
S- 8:18 -8:48 (WD 1h30m,pd1h44)
E- 10:00
A- 2h17m
S- 11:03-11:33 (we were out and slept in car seat)
E-12:03
A-1h46m
S-13:19-13:48 (wd 1h35m,pd 1h44m)
E-14:01
A-1h47m
S- 15:35-16:05 (wd 1h35m,pd 1h45m)
E-16:20
A-1h55m
BT/S- 18:01
WU 18:36 resettle, back to sleep at 19:48
NW/E 22:35 resettle by feed 
NW/E 3:09 resettle by feed
WU 6:44
(sometimes he wakes at 5:00am but on this two days he has not)

[Matt'sMom]

Please help! Last night BT was 1830, DS woke up after 30min after sleeping, and then at 20:30( 1.5 hour and he didn't settle until 1 hour later then woke up again at 23:30 And then at 3:09 ( this one he just start cooing and talking and without crying) am so worried! He only went back to sleep 4:55am. we fed him that didn't work, same happened yesterday for 3 am wake up.

[creations]

Hi there
Sorry I haven't been around much recently due to a house move.

I'm so sorry to hear things were bad for you over night. Exhausting!

Honestly I cannot see a problem with your routine.  The A times vary a little (that first EASY I think you forgot to log a nap as you having waking at 9.04 and next nap 12.59 but I think you must have had another nap in there) but the A times are reasonable for age. You are feeding on demand, helping your LO and offering sling naps, car naps and all sorts.
The only thing I can think is that there is silent reflux which needs controlling to enable him to sleep better.
Can you get the appointment moved forward?
Have you asked the doctor for a medication trial to see if it helps?
I don't know how your medical system works there but I know in the UK sometimes we have to repeatedly ask to get something.  I was asking for help for my refluxer for quite some time before he got his medication and the meds worked so well I hated that he had been left waiting.

All you can really do at night is comfort and offer BF.  Honestly I don't think any routine change is going to fix your nights or naps at this point.
Sorry, I know this is really hard. I've had those awful nights too where absolutely nothing helps and all I could do was hold my DS whilst he screamed until he eventually passed out and got a little sleep. It's so horrible.

hugs

[Matt'sMom]

hi Creations

Congratulations on moving to new place

We are still waiting, I have been asking but that is earliest appointment available given to us. We went to see a general doctor, he of course don't think DS has reflux that needed medication

The last few days miracle happened, DS started doing 1.5hr and 1 hr nap , not sure how perhaps his short naps were developmental or me not putting him to sleep on the right time. I didn't do anything different and we have not started medications for reflux

The good news is the 4am wake up (happy and chatty) also stopped. but the waking 30 min and 1.5hr after bed time still happens sometimes , not sure what is the reason to that. Maybe my bedtime is not right.

I hope he will continues to do long naps,

[creations]

DS started doing 1.5hr and 1 hr nap ,

Yay!!

The good news is the 4am wake up (happy and chatty) also stopped.

Yay again!!

30 min and 1.5hr after bed time still happens sometimes

Just check the last A time is not too long for him.  TBH mine always woke in the early part of his sleep and even now at 7yo I hear him stir and make noise at least once in the evening.  If it's a relatively quick resettle or he can self settle I'd not worry about it.