Author Topic: 13 months night wakings/night weaning  (Read 1441 times)

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Offline mommykay410

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13 months night wakings/night weaning
« on: June 21, 2018, 12:52:42 pm »
Hi,

I'm about past my wits end at this point with DS's sleep  ??? >:(  He is 13 months old and has never slept through the night.  There was always some issue or another that was waking him at night over the course of the last year, first itching, then gas, then pooping.  And now that I have solved each of those problems and he is still waking, I have no idea what to do with him. 

I have weaned him from all daytime BFs, but I still nurse him at night when he wakes, if only for my own sanity so I can get back to sleep sooner.  But I would really like to wean him completely because at this point I am sure it has become a prop, which it never was before.  I know that is my fault because I am too tired to deal with him crying and screaming if I just try to pat him or rock him back to sleep when he wakes, so I give in to nursing him.  The worst is when he wakes around 5am and I nurse him and keep him on me in the rocking chair until he wakes for the day because I'm afraid to move him back to his crib and risk him waking up again and then him be up already for the day.  He has a cow's milk allergy, so he is not getting any supplemental source of liquid calories at all, ie. a cup of whole milk before bed like most kids would get at this point.  (I was giving him oat milk for a little while, but that was causing him to poop constantly.)

He falls asleep on his own just fine for both night and nap.  And he generally takes a decent 1.5-2.5 hr nap in the afternoon after and A time of around 6hrs/6hr15min. 

Here are his times for the last week:
6/14 awake 5:55 (way too early), nap 12-2:30, sleep 7:20, wake 9:30, 3:30, 5:20
6/15 awake 6:20, nap 12:25-1:55, sleep 7:20, wake 10:05, 3:30, 5:05
6/16 awake 6:15, nap 12:25-2:15, sleep 7:20, wake 12:45, 3:45
6/17 awake 6:00, naps in car 11:30-12, 5:45-6:20, sleep 7:40, wake 9:20, 11:15, 3:15, 5:05
6/18 awake 6:15, nap 12:25-1:45, sleep 7:15, wake 1:55, 5:00
6/19 awake 6:00, nap 12:15-2:00, sleep 7:15, wake 9:45, 3:30, 5:20
6/20 awake 6:20, nap 12:40-1:45, sleep 7:05, wake 11:35, 2:30, 4:55, awake for day at 6:20

Ideally I'd like him to wake up for the day in his crib at 6:30, but he never makes it that far.  He used to wake up for the day between 7-7:20, so I have no idea what happened to that haha. 
Any thoughts on what I can do to get him to stop waking and nursing would be great!

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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2018, 09:39:49 am »
Hi there
Sorry to see you didn't have a reply yet.

First off I have to say that my DS's second year (12-24 months) was the worst for disturbed nights, he was teething throughout the entire year with only a few days off between canines and molars.  The few days off was very clear, he slept wonderfully.  The rest of the time I just had to put up with th need for comfort because of the pain even when he had medication before BT.  Not all LOs teeth so badly of course but just a warning that you might have some sleepless nights ahead of your yet.

Looking at the information you've given a couple of things come to mind:
- toddlers need protein, fats and calcium.  Solids is the primary food at this age but toddler still usually have milk to ensure their nutritional needs are met.  With the cows milk allergy and therefore not having a couple of servings of milk during the day your LO might be waking for the breast milk because he is regulating his nutritional needs. If he can't get breast milk in the day he might be waking for it in the night when that's the only time it is offered.  I see you tried oat milk which wasn't suitable.  Have you tried anything else?  The "easy" way to give toddlers nutritional intake needs is through milk and other dairy products as well as their solids meals, when it's not possible to offer the easy dairy foods another source of protein, fats and nutrients is needed.
How is your LO with solids meals? And have you looked into how to provide a fully balanced diet without the milk portions?
I think some people with LOs with milk allergy choose to continue to BF in the day for another year.  Not sure how you'd feel about that?

- at around 1yo and when on 1 nap per day we usually suggest moving to a set nap and BT routine rather than changing nap time each day based on WU and A times.  The "set" time begins as whatever you think suitable or what looks common (lets say 12.25 for your LO?) and can be tweaked later if needed.  BT is the same.  As LO gets older or with changing sleep needs both the nap and BT "set" times can be changed to provide the best routine and best amount of sleep but each time it is set you then leave it there.
I think with your LO waking so early in the morning I might be tempted to bring BT earlier and see how it goes over 2 wks or so. If there is some OT at BT it could be leading to that 5am ish NW that is hard to resettle from.  So perhaps 6.45 or 7pm BT.

What do you think?


Offline mommykay410

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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2018, 18:23:26 pm »
Hi, thanks for your reply! 

Yes, I am sure teething definitely has some play in his sleep issues currently, as well as his demeanor during the day.  He literally has never given me a full night of sleep though, so I can't imagine that is always the issue.  His naps have been quite crummy the past week too.  DD is 3 and had many bouts of sleep issues so lack of sleep is unfortunately not new to me, but it is definitely taking a toll on my attitude in general during the day being so overly sleep-deprived. 

As far as BT goes, for a while I was taking him up to nurse and bath at 6 and he would be asleep by 6:45/7, but then I stopped nursing him before bed when I was giving him the oat milk, so his routine wasn't taking as long and I started taking him up for bath at 6:30 and laying him down right around 7.  He was always pretty quick to fall asleep, usually within 5 minutes of laying down.  Not that I stopped the oat milk he just gets water right before bed.  I thought that maybe slowly moving his BT later would adjust his morning wake-up later (as I would for a time change), but that doesn't seem to be the case.  His shorter naps aren't helping either, since that makes his A to BT longer.  I can definitely try putting him down earlier again so he is asleep by 6:45/7 and see if that helps.  I'm always afraid that he will wake up for the day even earlier then though. 

With a set nap time, should he theoretically take the same length nap regardless of whether he wakes up at 5:55 vs 6:20?  Or would I end up with UT or OT naps?  He will be starting daycare in August when I start back at work, so he will have nap at 12:45/1:00 then. 

Here are the last few days:
WU 6:20, nap 12:40-1:45 woke crying and tried to pat/rock back to sleep but no luck (OT?), Sleep 7:05, woke 11:35, 2:30, 4:55
WU 6:20, nap 12:30-2 woke unhappy but wasn't going to go back to sleep, Sleep 7:25, woke 12:15, 5:15
WU 6:00, nap 12:20-1:35 woke crying and tried to get him back to sleep but no, Sleep 7:20, woke 2:00, 5:45
WU 6:20, nap 12:40-2:10 (not long but was happy when he woke-UT?), Sleep 7:15, woke 12:05, 2:40, 4:10
WU 6:00, nap 12:15-1:35 (not long but woke happy)

Not sure why he is taking these short naps all of a sudden because he was on a good streak of 2hr-2hr45min naps for a while.  At first I thought it was UT, so I increased his A time by 15 mins like I did previously when short naps would occur but that doesn't seem to be helping.  Will the set nap time sort this out?

I have been nursing him every time he wakes because I just want to get back to sleep, but I think now he just expects that.  And when he wakes at the 5:00 times I always just keep him on me in the rocking chair until he wakes for the day.  I'm not sure that he is even taking in much milk during the night feeds since I can't possibly be producing as much with only one feed a day.  And his diaper isn't that wet when he wakes in the morning either. 

With solids, he was having issues for a while with swallowing whole foods, so he was getting mostly purees up until a week or two ago when he finally figured out how to swallow the whole food.  But he eats a decent amount at each meal and throughout the day now.  I do hate that he has the dairy allergy because that eliminates so many higher calorie foods that would normally be my go-to.  He eats a decent amount of meat, and we give him coconut milk or almond milk yogurt which is comparable to whole milk yogurt in macros.  I have offered him coconut milk, hemp milk, and almond milk to drink but he was not a fan of any of those like he was of the oat milk.  And the almond milk has basically no calories anyways.  We actually started tracking his nutrients in an app today to see exactly what he is getting, so I'm interested to see what he is actually eating. 

I would rather not continue nursing him, mainly because I have been eliminating dairy for the last 5 months and would like to go back to eating normal foods again without putting him at any risk, although I know that is selfish of me.  He didn't have any significant reactions when I was eating dairy, but I don't know if me starting to eat it again and continue nursing him would put him at a higher chance of not outgrowing the allergy or if it would cause more eczema and gas flare ups.  I suppose I could try reintroducing the feed before bed for a few days in hopes that it might eliminate the middle of the night feeds, and then try to introduce another type of "milk" or drink to replace it once he starts sleeping better? 

The other issue is that we are going to the beach in a few weeks with extended family, so to have him waking up multiple times a night when we are all sleeping in the same room is going to wreak havoc on everyone's sleep, DD's being of the most concern to me as I don't need her waking up and then having a vicious cycle of them keeping each other awake.  He already wakes her up too early here when he is up at 6 playing around in his room. :(

Would it be worth it/fair to him to try getting him back to sleep without nursing him when he wakes earlier in the night and just deal with the screaming and crying, and wait to nurse til the 5ish wakings if necessary?  I don't want to deprive him of any nutritional needs or comfort, but we all need to get back to sleeping a full night.  He definitely doesn't need to be nursing 2-3 times a night at this point, does he?  I do only nurse him on one side each time he wakes so it's not a full feed when he wakes. 

Thanks for your help!

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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2018, 18:49:18 pm »
Not sure why he is taking these short naps all of a sudden because he was on a good streak of 2hr-2hr45min naps for a while.
How long ago was this? Was he on one nap? And what was his A time then with these good naps?

Will the set nap time sort this out?
A lot of people find set nap and BT really helpful at this age but I can't guarantee that we pick the right times right away, yk?

I think for now I would BF at BT rather than not.  It would be worth seeing if it effects the NW/NFs.
It isn't particularly that LOs need "milk" as toddlers but what the milk/yoghurt/cheese offers them would need ot be found in other foods if they don't have milk.  Also if there is no late meal/snack before bed this could effect the ability to get through the night.  Ordinarily I would say a 1yo doesn't need night feeds but without any milk in the day and I don't know what solids he is getting, then he could be hungry and could need the nutrition, you said he was on purees until recently so I'm guessing he doesn't eat huge portions of a variety of food groups (but I know I could be wrong).  When I cut my DS's BT milk I put in a solids snack before bath time, this was in addition to the 1 milk, 3 full solid meals and 2 snacks he was already having.  The final snack/supper was so,ids plus drink of milk and that saw him through the night to morning but he was desperate for the milk in the morning.
Maybe you could consider adding a solids snack and BF before BT. And perhaps a BF in the morning??
I know ideally you want to wean the BF, I totally understand, but it might help to see what happens over night.  I doubt things would change day one or two though.

Weaning the night feeds can be more gentle than him crying and screaming.
At this age, so long as you are with him and never leave him you can try to resettle without feeding and drop a feed cold turkey, yes, but personally I wouldn't.
Have you read Pantleys' no-cry sleep solution? There is a good description of weaning night feeds. In my opinion it doesn't need to take long at all.  but you would really need to know that LO is getting all his nutrition he needs before doing so.


Offline mommykay410

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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2018, 20:58:22 pm »
He last took a 2+hr nap on the 14th, and did a couple 1hr45min ones between then and now.  He on was a 6 hr A time then and has been for quite a while now.  I only increased it by the 15 mins this week because of the shorter naps.  He has been on one nap since he was 11 months, and prior to that wasn't really catnapping for a while either other than if I'd force it on a walk in the stroller. 

I will try the set nap time for sure.  I'll try the 12:25 as you suggested and see how that goes.  That would put him at just over a 6h A time if he keeps waking up when he currently is. 

I have been giving him a snack before bed, usually half of a banana or some applesauce or cheerios depending on how much and how long ago he ate dinner. 
A typical day of meals for him:
breakfast-toast or pancake, almond/coconut yogurt, fruit
snack-cheerios, pancake, yogurt, toast (whatever he didn't have at breakfast)
lunch-sweet potato fries, turkey or beef meatballs (2-3 ~1 inch), fruit, and sometimes a pureed meal ~6oz depending how much of the regular food he is eating
snack after nap/bit before dinner
dinner-hamburger, broccoli, rice, puree if not eating much or didn't eat it at lunch

I will try adding the BT nursing back and see if that helps with the NWs.  And will stick with nursing when he wakes until I see if that makes a difference.  Do you think a week of doing that would show improvements in the wakings if it is for nutritional needs?  Yes, I have read the no-cry sleep solution a while ago...is that where I would allow him to nurse for a few minutes then remove him, put him back on for a bit if upset/rooting, repeat?  I will have to look it back up again to get the details. 

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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2018, 13:12:59 pm »
Do you think he is getting enough calcium from his solids?
I just found this article which might be useful, it's not specifically aimed at babies but there is a useful list of how much calcium is needed per age and good sources of non-dairy too. it might be worth a glance if you have time.
https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide/best-calcium-rich-foods
and a link to higher healthy fats
https://www.self.com/story/9-high-fat-foods-actually-good-for-you
I know things like tinned sardines are great for good fats and calcium but they need to include the bones which I am not convinced I would give to a 13 month old due to choke risk or just getting caught in the mouth/throat even if not choking, but you could maybe experiment with whizzing them smooth to make a fish paste??
I might appear to be focusing a lot on the solids and nutritional aspect, it's partly because your LO isn't getting the common amount of milk for a toddler and partly because I know my DS self regulated his dairy intake quite obviously.  Mine didn't much like milk (no allergy) but I found when I tried to up his dairy by giving increased dairy solids he actually reduced what he would drink in formula/milk.  When I reduced dairy solids he increased his formula/milk.  Often people notice their LOs self regulating in other ways for example lots of protein one day but none the next. I can't help but think your LO is looking for that milk in the night.

it might be possible for instance to up the healthy fats and calcium in the day with fish, nut butters, eggs, beans, avocado, eggs.  I could effect the milk intake at night.
I need to point out I am not a dietician. It might be worth seeing one which is what I would do in this situation with a LO who has milk allergy to make sure that all food groups and vits are covered.  You might give a supplement too, in the UK it's advised for all LOs for vit D, not sure exactly what the US guidance is.


Offline mommykay410

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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2018, 14:58:57 pm »
Calcium was one of the things that we noted yesterday when we tracked his nutrients that we need to be conscious of making sure he is getting.  I checked out the sites you linked and also found a similar one yesterday.  It listed squash and sweet potatoes as good sources of calcium, and he does love those.  He is not a fan of scrambled eggs, so I've been mixing a hardboiled egg yolk in with his purees every once in a while.  He doesn't like avocado either, so I tried to do the same with mixing it into his purees.  There is peanut butter and eggs in the muffins that he eats, and I have tried mixing almond butter in with his sweet potatoes or applesauce.  It's just so hard to get the quantity since the amounts of food he eats at a time is small and the fat/calcium ends up being just a small component of the food.  I do agree that he definitely needs to make up for not getting what he would get from the whole milk.  I wish that he would drink a smoothie of some sort so I could throw extra stuff in there for him but everytime I've given him one he doesn't drink more than a sip. 

I think he is likely good on vitamin d right now since we are outside so much, but I think we will definitely probably supplement in the cooler months.  I will talk to the pediatrician about a possible recommendation for a dietician.  I would mostly like to know what to give him to drink other than water or crappy boxed nut milks.

Last night I nursed him before bed, he fell asleep around 6:50, woke at 1:35 and I nursed him on one side, then he woke again at 4:10 and was talking and standing.  I let him go for a few minutes to see if he would fall back to sleep but as soon as he started fussing I went in and nursed him because I was afraid he was going to be awake for the day if I didn't get him back to sleep.  He stayed on me in the rocking chair until he woke at 6:15, but was not in a very good sleep during that time because he kept moving his hands and legs. 


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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2018, 08:36:24 am »
Does he also have soy allergy?  I believe many who have cows milk allergy also have soy allergy.  If not they fortified soy milk to drink could be an option?

Really, LOs shouldn't be having anything to drink other than water and milk.  Even smoothies are not a great option, I see why you try them because you want to meet the nutritional needs and he sounds quite picky on what he will eat, I understand that, ordinarily though smoothies are too high in sugar (because the fruits are whizzed rather than whole).
Have you considered buying an appropriate formula milk?  Formula for LOs with MSPI could be an option although I hear they taste pretty awful but could be worth a shot?
Almond milk might belower calories but if it is fortified it could be beneficial for that aspect.

I understand too what you're saying about the small amounts of the good stuff as an individual ingredient in another food. That's tricky and even more so when he doesn't eat a lot of it.
Have you spoken with anyone about his reluctance to proper solids?  Will he take anything as finger food rather than mush/puree/little bits?

Would he eat a firm omelet cut into fingers rather than the mushy scrambled egg perhaps? (mine would not eat scrambled or hard boiled but would eat an omelet per day).  Or eggy bread?  Peanut butter on toast?  bean burgers? kidney bean cupcakes (made mainly with beans and eggs some unsweetened cocoa added for choc flavour).
You said he eats pancakes and, could you use an alternative fortified flour perhaps?  Maybe chick pea flour or almond flour??
Perhaps for the muffins too?  There is a cup cake recipe with white beans or chick peas, eggs, vanilla. I added ground almonds too when I made them.


Offline mommykay410

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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2018, 13:47:56 pm »
He does not have a soy allergy, although my husband would prefer to not give him soy products for other reasons, so soy milk is out.  All of the allergy-friendly formulas are basically just corn syrup and other fake junk they fill it with, so we really don't want to give him any of those.  I can try a different kind of the almond milk that he make like better just for the nutrients I suppose.  Although the ones he would like are the ones with added sugar. 

I can definitely try using the almond flour for the muffins.  We use it often for other things like meatloaf and breaded chicken so we have it on hand.  I will look for the recipe with the chickpeas and see how that goes.  When I give him eggs I do make them like an omelette so they are firm and in squares for him to grab.  He just doesn't seem to like the taste and will throw them on the floor right away.  I continue to offer them though in hopes that one day he will like them. 

He is eating proper solids now for the past 2 weeks finally.  I did mention it to the ped when we went for his 1 yr well visit and she gave him a referral for early intervention, but by the time they finally called me to set up the eval he had started eating the foods so I didn't bother having them come out.  Although if he ends up having issues again I will definitely call them back.  I think it was just a developmental thing and he was slower than I was used to with DD, but then one day it just clicked and he suddenly started swallowing the whole foods.  Now he doesn't want anything other than a whole chunk he can bite from. 

Yesterday he took a good nap for me again finally, just shy of 2 hrs.  I nursed him again at BT but he was only interested in one side and then climbed off my lap and wanted to drink his water.  He fell asleep at 7, woke at 1:05 nursed one side, 3:30 had gas due to not burping properly from previous feed and nursed him again, 4:50 nursed and slept on me til he woke at 6:10.  This is the issue we were having a few months back with the night feeds and him waking with gas because he doesn't burp right before I lay him back down since he is asleep.  So that's another reason I want to get him off the night feeds, because I think they actually make him sleep worse due to creating other issues. 

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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2018, 18:50:49 pm »
All of the allergy-friendly formulas are basically just corn syrup and other fake junk they fill it with
Honestly I've never looked at the ingredients but these special formulas do provide enough nutrition for babies to thrive who would otherwise not.

How about just reinstate the day times BF?  It doesn't need to be specifically at BT if it causes gas. Dairy can be given any time in the day with plenty of time for movement of gas before sleep. If he had a couple of really full milk feeds in the day you could be confident his nutritional needs were met all round and wean all the night feeds?
What do you think?


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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2018, 19:57:34 pm »
HI there - just chipping on the calcium thing - could you get a referral to a dietician? In the UK I am pretty sure that Olly was given calcium supplement when he was that age as he was allergic to dairy too. He is 8 now so wracking my brains to remember!

I also weaned the BFing at that age too so I could eat properly again!

I have asked Ali our breast feeding expert to pop over with some advice on weaning the night feeds. You may want to consider coming up with a plan and then implementing after the trip. You may well need the AP to get him to sleep if you are all in the same room.

I know that many people don't like to use soy milk as an alternative to breast or formula but now your LO is older would you consider soy yogurts/cheese/ice cream to add a bit of variety?

Another use link - https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/calcium.html

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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2018, 07:48:42 am »
Hi :)

Just popping in to be an extra set of eyes.

He stayed on me in the rocking chair until he woke at 6:15, but was not in a very good sleep during that time because he kept moving his hands and legs.
Moving around whilst asleep doesn't mean the sleep is poor - babies have a lot more REM sleep than adults and moving around and calling out during this time of lots of dreaming is quite normal (if quite disruptive to the sleep of the adult who happens to be nearby).

I think the BF probably has to stay at least once or twice per day until he's drinking something more substantial and the nutrient intake is reasonable be that via solids or some kind of milk. Certainly a formula is worth looking into but IIWM, I'd probably BF morning (wake up) and night(BT) +/- after nap and try to night wean as I think that prop is only going to get harder and harder to wean as he gets older. A dietitian (trained, accredited) would probably be best to help from the nutrition point of view but if there's some aversion to textures (I presume this is why he's still eating purees only up until quite recently), a speech pathologist may be helpful also though what you've said he's eating now looks ok.

Hugs xx You've been on a long road with your DS and I'm glad to read that his eczema is better.

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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2018, 17:18:56 pm »
Thank you ladies so much for all of your help and advice!  You have all been a Godsend these past 3 years! 

Last night he took a good feed before bed and had a decent amount of food during the day, although not as much as he was a few days prior, I think due to teething, which also isn't helping my sleep case right now  :-\  He fell asleep at 7:10, woke at 10:25, 3:45, 5:15.  I thought for sure when I nursed him at 3:45 that he would have made it from 4:20 when I laid him back down to his wake up for the day, so I was not too happy when he was up again less than an hour later, resulting in me nursing him back to sleep until he woke for the day at 6:30.  So yea these night feeds have got to go haha. 

I can gladly reinstate the morning BF, but the thing with that is he pretty much wakes up nursing since he's on me from 5 on.  Should I just offer again shortly after he wakes up?  He crawls right off me as soon as he is awake, so I think he will probably put up a fuss if I try to keep him on me to nurse him again.  I guess I could nurse him when he wakes up from nap instead maybe until he sorts that out? 

becj,  Yes it certainly has been a long road with him!  I feel like he should be much older than a year by now, as it's been one issue after another or on top of another since 2 months.   :'(  With the solids, I think it was definitely a texture thing for him until the other week.  Now I think it's more of a taste thing, or just being stubborn sometimes.  I can always call back for the early intervention referral if I feel that he still needs it.  I do think calling for a dietitian is a good idea too.

Buntybear, what milk substitute did you give your LO when you weaned from BF at this age?  My husband is against soy for hormonal reasons based on research he has done, so that is definitely out.  I have been giving him coconut and almond yogurts though to help fill that part of his diet.  There were a few homemade "formulas" that he found but I don't remember what exactly was in them.  He has also read that kids with dairy allergy were able to drink raw goat milk without issues, but I'm afraid to try it since the allergist said that the proteins are similar in goat milk.  Not sure if the pasteurization has anything to do with it or not. 

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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2018, 17:33:26 pm »
We used oat milk - you can get one with added calcium here. He has wheat and egg allergies too so I didn't want to give him any nuts at that age. I would have thought that the amount of hormones in the occasional soy yoghurt would be OK? I don't know much amount the reesearch on it now. x

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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2018, 19:02:59 pm »
raw goat milk without issues
Only yesterday or so I read goats milk shouldn't be given to LOs with allergy due to higher risk of them not coping with bacteria (?) I think that was it, can't remember 100% but perhaps needs looking into a bit further.

If you are putting in 2 day time BFs again (any time, it could be mid morning and mid afternoon or whatever, if you don't want it to be WU and BT) I would probably pick one of the NWs and do a rapid wean on it. Personally I always go for gentler wean rather than cold turkey but it's your choice.  For gentler you would reduce the number of mins you feed and then stop and use another soothing method.  For cold turkey you pick a feed and literally stop, use your soothing method and grit your teeth.
I would just do one at a time, one that is roughly the same time each night so he knows which is dropping.


Offline mommykay410

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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2018, 19:26:47 pm »
Buntybear - I was hoping you'd say something other than oat milk so I would have another option to try haha.  The oat milk made him poop literally 20x a day, all day and all night.  He had such horrible diaper rash, and every bm was liquid or mucous, never anything solid.  Maybe I was just giving him too much of it during the day, and could possibly try just once a day?  He wasn't drinking more than like 12 ounces of it total.  We got the Pacific brand. 

creations - The ped said that they never recommend goat milk because it's not regulated I think?  Or not fortified?  I don't exactly remember, but she was very clear that they never recommend it.  But the allergist, and my own general research, said that the proteins they are allergic to in the cow's milk are similar proteins in goat and sheep milk so they would likely have the same reaction.  My husband still thinks we should try it, but I'm leary of him having a reaction and then having to explain to the doctors why we did it when we were told not to.  The doctors obviously don't recommend raw (unpasteurized) cow milk either, but that's what we drink anyways. 

For rapid night wean, I would have to pick whenever he wakes earlier in the night.  Most nights he only wakes twice, the first is not usually at the same time, but that one would be easier to settle using other methods I think since he would still have the majority of the night's sleep ahead of him.  Whereas if I pick the 5am one, although it's a more consistent time, I'd be afraid of him waking for the day too early and of waking DD for the day with his screaming.  So for the gentle wean, I would gradually decrease the minutes each day, pull him off and rock/pat him, then once I'm down to, say, 1 minute then the next night I would try to stop it altogether?  Should I wait til I've been giving him the two daytime feeds for a few days, or start the day feeds and weaning process at the same time?

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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2018, 22:06:14 pm »
I'd probably start the day BFs and the night wean at the same time.
Usually at 13 months I would have said from the off that LO didn't need night feeds for hunger...it's only that in your case there was no day milk on top of the solids so as soon as the milk is there in the day I don't see a need to delay the night weaning.


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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2018, 22:50:41 pm »
Hi, I'm certainly no expert but the experts advise that all babies are breastfed on demand, day and night, for 2yrs or more. This is especially beneficial for babies with cmpa so continuing to breastfeed is optimal if you are happy to do so.  If not then there are certain milks that are recommended above others. This website gives more info https://gpifn.org.uk/cmpa/

In terms of you getting more sleep whilst feeding at night, have you considered lying facing each other on your side while you feed him, especially for that last feed rather than sitting in a rocking chair? It would probably be more restful for you both.

How are your baby's symptoms now? Could be he also needs comfort at night, especially if he's experiencing discomfort from itchy eczema for example.
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2018, 00:45:18 am »
I would be happy to continue nursing if I could go back to eating my normal diet, but I'm a picky eater to begin with, so not being able to eat dairy has really limited my food options, and many of the replacements are not the healthiest options.  So I'm sure my milk isn't optimal for him right now either in terms of nutrients. 

If I were to feed him lying down I'd have to lay with him on the air mattress on the floor in his room, and whenever I try to lay with him on there he just thinks it's playtime and crawls right off the mattress.  He would be especially inclined to do this at the 5am time since a bit of light starts sneaking past his curtains. 

In terms of symptoms, his eczema and itching are pretty well under control right now.  I'm not convinced that the elimination of dairy is what helped that since he does still get patches.  I attribute it more to the prescription cream and oatmeal bath/moisturizing routine.  His teeth bother him sometimes of course, but those are generally the nights when he cries for a long time and nothing I do helps, nursing included. 

I will see how it goes with adding in the daytime feeds and gradually weaning at the first waking.  I tried to give him the oat milk again the past two days since we found a new brand at the market, but he wasn't a fan, so I'm going to keep trying that too in hopes that it will be a suitable substitute.

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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2018, 07:17:05 am »
You could try fully blacking out the room, some babies will wake up with even a small chink of light coming in and end up starting the day way too early.
Mine needs full black out, I tried to reduce the amount of black out in his room thinking he'd get used to it but he still needs it at 7yo.  Once he was old enough to explain things properly to me he was able to tell me that the light in his room was waking him and that he was still tired.  We now have 3 layers on his window which helps.


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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2018, 21:40:38 pm »
Please rest assured that the nutrients in your milk are not affected by your own diet so it's always going to be the most nutritious milk you can offer him.

Are you under a nutritionist? They should be able to advise you on suitable replacements for dairy. Or maybe look into joining a breastfeeding with cmpa support group.
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2018, 15:09:15 pm »
Yes, I have been meaning to put up extra pieces of blackout fabric to cover up the little rays that sneak through, I just keep forgetting, or think of it when he's sleeping. 

I looked back at DD's schedule at this age and she was sleeping through from 8-~6:30/45 each night and taking between 1-1.5 hr nap each day.  I'm sure I was wanting her to nap longer, but at least she wasn't getting up at night.  Could I be expecting too much for him to sleep so long at night if he is falling asleep around 7 and wanting him to sleep til 6:30 straight through?  He is still taking the shorter naps, but at least I'm reassured by the reminder that she was doing the same thing at this age and it will get better. 

I have been trying to gradually shorter the first feed in the middle of the night, which has been coming anywhere from 10:40 to 1:30.  He has been ok with me removing him, changing his diaper, and then laying him back down.  Then he gets up again somewhere between 3:40-4:45 and I nurse him again but haven't purposely shortened that one.  But then he is up again around 5:30, sometimes crying, sometimes talking to himself.  I don't want that to be when he is awake for the day though so I go in and nurse him back to sleep til he wakes ~6:15. 

I'm tempted to put some water in a bottle and see if he will take that instead of nursing.  I've tried to offer his sippy but he won't take that in place of nursing, but if he is able to lay back with the bottle maybe he would be more agreeable?  I also tried offering a pacifier, but he didn't want anything to do with that.  I did try to hold off on nursing him for a few minutes when I got him at the first waking the other night but he then started sucking on my shoulder. 

Ali - No, I am not seeing a nutritionist.  I am in a group on Facebook though for dairy-free breastfeeding.  I have started offering him the oat milk again now that we found a different brand that doesn't have any of the fillers that the one we gave previously does, so I'm hoping that he will be able to handle that better and not have the poop issues he had before.  He seems to like it so that's a plus. 

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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2018, 22:41:27 pm »
Oh my goodness, I could have written this exact post!
I have a 12mo who is allergic to dairy and has never slept for more than 2 hours at a time (hence why Im on here looking)! She normally goes back to sleep fairly quickly after bf. But such broken sleep is killing me now Im back at work and not doing much for my relationship as were both shattered!
We actually saw a dietician today actually, she wants us to try soya for a week (milk in food and yogurts etc). Then in a weeks time we will start the milk ladder to see if she can tolerate any dairy now.
The proteins in soya and goats milk are very similar, hence why these can be an issue. However, my son was allergic to dairy also and started having it again at 1.5. However I kept him on goats milk until he was about 3 as its supposedly easier to digest.
We too have massive amount of gas issues so were goinf to try probiotics again (good result when younger).
Will be writing my own post shortly, so you may want to see if anyone suggests anything different.

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Re: 13 months night wakings/night weaning
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2018, 02:42:55 am »
Hi matilds,

So sorry I'm just seeing your reply now.  I haven't had a chance to get on here to the forum in ages because we've been so busy.  Have you had any improvements with your DD?  My DS finally started STTN at 17 months (he's 18 months now), and thankfully he weaned himself off of the comfort night feeds.  One night when he woke up with gas he just laid his head on my shoulder and didn't point to the rocking chair so I didn't offer.  And that was that!  On the dairy issue, we have actually been giving him camel milk, believe it or not.  My husband did a lot of research and found that it does not have the protein that is in the cow, goat, sheep milk that the babies are allergic to so they are able to handle it.  It tastes similar to regular cow's milk, just a little salty.  Before we found the camel milk we were giving him oat milk, which he was ok on as well, although it didn't make for very solid BMs. 
Gas can still be an issue at times, and I am pretty sure the culprit for that is eggs.  We occasionally have breakfast for dinner-pancakes, bacon, scrambled eggs.  And I have noticed on those nights he is up all night with gas pain.  We are currently trying duck eggs to see if he handles those better. 
Hope your LO is making some progress too!