Never ending "Growth Spurt" ??

[alanconceicao]

Hi ladies,
Our DD is now 11 weeks old. She is our 3rd BW child so we've been on an EASY routine since we got back from the hospital.
She is a big baby and has always handled bigger A's.

Until 3 weeks ago she was sleeping up to 9 hours at night and only waking to feed once. We realized she was hungry during the day so we started doing EAEAS and everything was going fine until her stretches got shorter and shorter during the night waking more than once to feed. Because they were full feeds, we continued thinking it was a GS but now it's been more than a week that she has been waking up at the same time during the night at 1:30am and 5am.

This is our routine below (3.5h EASY with a feed before every nap!!). Her naps our fine and most of the time she doesn't even need resettling.

E: 7:30
S: 9:00

E: 11:00
S: 12.30

E: 14:30
S: 16:00

E: 18:00
E: 19: 10 - Top up
BT: 19:30

Another thing that has been happening is that almost every night we put her down for BT and after 30min she wakes up crying and takes about an hour to be resettled. Sometimes we end up feeding her again but she still takes a long time to go back to sleep.

Does this still look like a GS even though she is waking up at the same time every night? Do I still keep feeding before the naps? how will I know when to stop?

Thank you!

[alanconceicao]

I forgot to add that because of the 5am feed she hasn't been hungry in the morning for the first feed of the day and will only feed a bit better before going to her first nap

[creations]

Hi there, welcome to BW forums

Is your LO breast or formula fed?

I know you said naps are good (wonderful news) but how long are they, are they up to the E time in the EASY you posted or does she wake before that?  I'm wondering how long she is awake between naps and before bed time.

[alanconceicao]

Hi, thank you!

DD is breastfed.
Yes, the naps go up to the E times in our EASY routine.
She has 2 naps of 2hs and the third one varies from 1h40min  to 2hs because we wake her up at 6pm so she'll have a BT at 7:30pm. (We wake her from all her naps ).
Her A has been around 1h30 min -1h40 min.

So tonight I tried to shorten her A a bit before BT, but she still only really slept with a 1h30 min of A. Woke up again within 30 min and would not reset. So I fed her and she had a big full feed! Even though she has a top up like all her other awake times! (EAEAS).She did sleep quite quickly afterwards.
This looks like a cluster feed, but is it possible for her to do that by herself?  We stopped with the cluster feed a long time ago...

She then woke up at 00:30 crying and had a full feed. Straight back to crib and asleep quickly. I was surprised she woke earlier and thought we would have a different night but she then woke up again at exactly 1:30am!
Because she wasn't really crying, I didn't go in and she took almost an hour to resettle herself.

I'm writing this in the middle of the night, so we still have to see if she'll wake up at 5am again. I'm still trying to understand why she seems on a crazy growth spurt, feeding so much during the day but still wakes up practically the same time every night to feed. Growth spurts are supposed to lead to erratic night wakings, right? I'm so scared we're  creating a snacker, even though she's feeding well every time she's at the breast.
I thought having EAEAS during the day would help her not feed so much at night. I just miss our really long night stretches... They seem so far from happening again... 

Thanks for any help!

[becj86]

This looks like a cluster feed, but is it possible for her to do that by herself?   We stopped with the cluster feed a long time ago...

Yes, she can demand a cluster feed and that's quite reasonable with a GS.

There is a big growth spurt which can last 1-2 weeks at 3ish months, so you could just be in that.

Is she asking for that second feed each A time? I'm not suggesting you don't feed on demand as that's the recommendation now however, I wonder if maybe you're mistaking a sleepy cue for a hunger cue. Its easy to do...


Any issues with overactive letdown and/or oversupply? Wondering if she is looking for a feed to help with gas?

[creations]

Thanks for stopping by bec, much appreciated.

Aside from the possibilities of a longer lasting GS and possible BF issues or gas which bec has asked about (and I'll let bec deal with as I am not great with those things tbh) my thought is that she just neds those feeds in the day and night.
Her A and S routine is fabulous but it means that if you did not top up before a nap she would be going 3.5hr between feeds which she probably just can't manage.  The 4 hr EASY doesn't come until 4 months old, your LO is still more than a month off that so 3hrly E would be expected.  In addition, not all babies manage the 4hr E.  Some need to keep to stay on 3hr E until more like 6 months old.  When you have a LO with E times that don't exactly fit with their suitable A and S times there is no option but to give a top up of some sort.
My own LO couldn't go past 3hr E until 6 months when he had solids between (and a milk top up at solids meals initially too) so I have experienced needing to fit E times around naps rather than the standard EASE.  Mine had a bit of A after S so the 3hr E fitted over the nap rather than top ups usually.

With cluster feeds I'd say you have them whenever the routine or appetite shows they are needed. I agree LO can demand them.  Sometimes in certain routines we need to use EBT so there woulsn't be a 3hr gap between E because they are going to bed early. I can remember mine having his E after a nap then barely perhaps only 1.5hr - 2hr later eating again for his BT feed.

The other thing I'm wondering is if she is tired. Although your EASY looks wonderful, if you are having to wake from every nap she isn't really getting a chance to sleep until she has finished sleeping.  Tweaking the routine does risk losing what is a nice neat routine, but perhaps she'd have more relaxed nights if you left one of those naps un-capped?

[alanconceicao]

Thanks, becj86...
Glad to know about the cluster feed... I can relax a bit more then! Do I assume she's hungry and feed her or should I try to resettle?

With the 3 month old GS being so long, does everything just fall into place when it's gone, or do I have to work on getting it "go away" and back to the way things were before?

I totally understand the question about the second E during her A! I'm always trying hard to read her signs to be sure it's hunger. Most of the times I'm pretty sure it's hunger and then she feeds really well... Sometimes I'm not too sure, but I keep up the EAEAS so she'll need less at night. Is that right? How will I know when to stop? Do I just wait until she'll start feeding less at the second E?
Most of the time she'll start complaining at around half of her A time, or just a bit over half. And will feed well... And doesn't get drowsy on the breast, so I keep thinking it's not tiredness... So tricky!

No issues with oversupply/overactive letdown... She is really gassy, but she she's great at getting it all out! 

Last night she woke ate 5:20 am again, like the other nights and had a huge feed. Then we woke her at 7:30am (she was stirring already) but she wasn't hungry so barely fed. Then before her nap had a proper feed.. 

[alanconceicao]

Hi, creations! Thanks for your reply!

Do you think I should try keeping her E 3hrs having some A after S, like you mentioned with your LO?

If I leave her to wake up by herself on one of the naps how would the rest of the day go?
Should I wake her up on the last nap with enough time for her A before BT .. Or do I leave her to wake by herself even if her day ends a bit later than 12hs?
I was thinking of letting her wake by herself on her second nap.. Is there a right or wrong nap to go this?

Thanks again!

[creations]

Do you think I should try keeping her E 3hrs having some A after S, like you mentioned with your LO?

Well you could, or you could continue with the 2 feeds per A time which seems to be working for you.  I wouldn't make her wait a long time if she's hungry just to move to 3hr E between the naps if that makes sense.  If she doesn't appear hungry on waking then maybe just see when she goes to and feed on demand then check the clock to see if you need a second before nap or not ?? Just a thought.

If you let her sleep a longer nap there is no correct way to go around it, just let her sleep.  You could cap the last nap to retain the BT but it is also okay for the night to be a bit shorter.  It'sa bit of guess work tbh. She needs to be well rested to sleep well at night and sometimes capping means missing sleep they want - on the other side though not capping is going to throw your routine up in the air somewhat. It's your call.

[alanconceicao]

Hi creations, thank you for your reply!

This morning she fed when she woke up and from both breasts, which she doesn't always do... So that was quite a lot. We decided to watch closely for hunger signs and because they weren't so clear in this first A, I didn't repeat the feed before her nap. She then woke up from her nap at 45 min and I resettled her... It took quite a while, but she did eventually go back. She rarely needs resettling, so I'm not sure if this was hunger or UT because we shortened her A a bit....
I then left her to wake up by herself and she woke up with 2h10.
Again I fed her and it was a full feed. But this second A she got fussy at around 1h (she does 1h30/1h40 A) and I ended up feeding her before her nap. It was a full feed!! 
We decided not to wake her again to see what would happen and I'm freaking out because she's been asleep for almost 3hs!!!!! 

I'm very confused...

Last night was really bad. She again woke up after 30 min after BT,. I fed her, she took an hour to go back to sleep, then did another 30 min catnap! 40 min later she finally managed to sleep for the night..... 

[alanconceicao]

Oh, i forgot to mention that she woke 2:40am, fed and stayed awake in her crib till around 3:30am... Not crying, just making fussy sounds...

So..I panicked and woke her up with 3hs S. She was in deep sleep!!!
 
Now we're planning to get a catnap in and then BT with a shorter A. We'll see how it goes tonight....

[creations]

. She then woke up from her nap at 45 min and I resettled her... It took quite a while, but she did eventually go back. She rarely needs resettling, so I'm not sure if this was hunger or UT because we shortened her A a bit....

What was the reason for shortening her A time before this nap?  I wonder if it's worth trying again what you did today but with the regular A time and see how she goes hunger wise.  That nap sounds more like UT than hunger to me - but you are there with her so really only you know.

.I panicked and woke her up with 3hs S. She was in deep sleep!!!

Wow that's a long nap!  I think I would have woken her at 3hrs too, she was probably hungry by then, yes?
I wonder if she has some OT built up from having all naps capped each day.  She might not really "need" 3hr nap ordinarily but could have taken the opportunity to catch up a bit if she's had a sleep deficit for a while.
I'm crossing my fingers for you that the rest of the day went okay and that you all have a good night.

[alanconceicao]

Thanks again creations!

Shortening her A was just an idea I had that she might be having too big an A and that could explain her NWs? I don't think I'm right, though. I went back to her normal A for the next nap and she slept those 3hrs with no resettling.

Would it make sense for her As to get shorter by the end of the day? Because right after the 3hr nap, she seemed tired earlier than usual. I kept the same A though and she woke with 30 min. I was planning to wake her up with 45 min, so her BT wouldn't be so late, so 30 min wasn't too bad..

So, for her last A, I decided to try to shorten it because of her previous catnap and showing tired signs earlier in her A before. I went to her room earlier, but she took really long to wind down, really agitated. She finally slept with a 1h30 A, which is not much different from her usual A. BUT, good news is NO wake up after BT!!!!

So the OT could explain her waking up after BT? Is it normal for that last wind down to be so agitated? Or should I go to her room earlier still?

I'll do the same with the feeding tomorrow, but keeping her normal A, like you said, so we can see if she'll make it through her nap.

Should I leave her naps uncapped again tomorrow? What happens if she sleeps 3hrs again? Do I let her?

The idea is to see if she won't need a feed before her nap and with that she probably won't sleep so long because she'll be hungry, right?

Thanks for your help! I'm feeling so much better than before! 

[becj86]

Glad to know about the cluster feed... I can relax a bit more then! Do I assume she's hungry and feed her or should I try to resettle?

Well, you could assume she's hungry. She could also be OT at BT which can cause wakings within the first 3hr after BT but the routine looks good. I think in your shoes I'd probably try to pre-empt the need for a cluster feed and just cluster in the leadup to BT and see if that helps. I'd also be really sure you're putting her down on 1:30 A time, not overstepping.

but I keep up the EAEAS so she'll need less at night. Is that right?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It is recommended to feed on demand, as you know. I would say though, that as an example, my DS demanded feeding this frequently when he was a touch younger than your LO and actually he did much, much better when I did tummy massage and bicycled his legs rather than feeding the second time in the A time He was looking for the breast to help move what gas remained in his gut along using a reflex.

With the 3 month old GS being so long, does everything just fall into place when it's gone, or do I have to work on getting it "go away" and back to the way things were before?

As with most things with babies, things usually fall back into place if we are sufficiently patient. We're just not so patient, most of the time. If you consider when you get sick, after you're 'better', you still take another couple of days to feel fully better but we expect as soon as baby is 'better', they will just bounce straight back, never giving them those couple of days to settle back into things. Sometimes you will need to help her get back on track but if you keep offering appropriate E, A and S times/opportunities, she will get there, just as she did when you first started EASY.

[creations]

Would it make sense for her As to get shorter by the end of the day? Because right after the 3hr nap, she seemed tired earlier than usual. I kept the same A though and she woke with 30 min. I was planning to wake her up with 45 min, so her BT wouldn't be so late, so 30 min wasn't too bad..

As can get shorter, yes, but not always. Also sleep begets sleep. LOs can appear tired sooner after a good sleep, they can need to go down earlier (if say it is almost the A time but not quite when tired signs show) or they could be feeling a bit dopey from a good long nap (if say the yawns are running right after the wake up, you know how you might yawn in the morning or might feel even more tired after a long lie in? if you can remember what a lie in feels like!).
That doesn't give you a clear cut answer as to what A to go on. I would do what you are doing. Her routine was good, still is, the only aspect being every nap being capped I felt OT could be building and hearing you got no NWs it could indicate the longer nap helped her overcome some OT.
She isn't necessarily going to keep doing 3hr naps.

I went to her room earlier, but she took really long to wind down, really agitated. She finally slept with a 1h30 A, which is not much different from her usual A

I'd probably keep the last A at 1hr 30 or only slightly reduced if showing signs.  BT would ideally not be agitated, she should be ready for sleep, if she is hungry or a bit under tired she will fuss more the same as when a bit OT. I'd do what bec suggested with feeds etc and not over step the 1hr 30.

Should I leave her naps uncapped again tomorrow? What happens if she sleeps 3hrs again? Do I let her?

My expectation is that her naps will be around 2hr or up to 2.5hr with waking naturally rather than capping.  The 3hr isn't likely to keep happening but maybe a few days if she needs to catch up on an OT build up. It could be that further down the line you do need to cap one or two naps at 2hrs but at the moment I wouldn't.

So, watch for hunger cues rather than auto feeding before the nap, but do cluster feed before BT. Watch the A times.  Let her nap until she is ready to wake for now to try to avoid those OT wake ups after BT.
hope this helps