Author Topic: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??  (Read 1296 times)

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Offline Madrigal

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Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« on: July 26, 2018, 20:11:06 pm »
Hello!

My 9mo has been on EASY for about a week and a half now. I've been able to cue into his fussy and crying sounds much better and his naps are longer! Whoo!!

But it's time to stop nursing to sleep and teaching LO how to fall asleep on his own. I actually attempted PU/PD last week but had to stop- my back was KILLING me! anyone else run into this? LO is around 24 pounds and still can't sit up on his own. He also sleeps in a mini-crib, where the height of his mattress is pretty low to the ground. So I finally bought him a new crib, he needed one anyway he's so big!

Planning on starting PU/PD tonight or tomorrow for naps. But- his new crib is in his new room. He has never had a night in there. Would anyone have any ideas on how to approach this? He's a textbook + spirited baby by the way. I don't want to do too much at once, putting him to sleep with PU/PD AND in a completely new place. But then again, maybe it would be beneficial to just do it all at once??

Really need some advice! Thanks!


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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2018, 07:09:02 am »
Hi there
Sorry to see you didn't get a reply yet.

How did things go?
TBH I had a LO who was an independent sleeper from very young but when he needed help he really needed help and those times are hard whether you have a routine and a baby who can self sooth or not.  I had to move my LO at around 9 into a different room and different cot because I had him in a baby hammock and at the first roll over it becomes unsafe.  The move was hard work I won't lie! I think I ended up in the cot-bed with him at least once and slept on his floor too. Really not comfortable but after 3 days he settled.

I have a bad back too. It's hard. I'd probably hold LO until he is really close to sleep before putting down and then keep really firm hands on so he feels secure.  Keep letting him know you are there.


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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2018, 03:35:16 am »
Hi creations!

Things have been okay! I decided to just do it all at once, we moved him into his own room 2 days ago, tonight being his third night. I am glad we did it this way, it's been brutal...can't imagine having to deal with more transition later.

First day's record was 150 times pu/pd, and it hasn't topped 50 since. But he will cry and cry and when I go to pick him up he doesn't want me to  :-\ I feel like he's scarred already. BUT he is sleeping better. 8 hours straight the last two nights! That is a big deal around here.

That's a good idea about holding LO a bit longer to help him settle before laying him down. I have another thread about his long wind down and I am starting to suspect he may be OT just constantly :( I struggle with this so much. He's been having a great time in his crib in between sobbing fits, he will play with his lovey and try to stand and giggle...I don't know what to do in these times. Watch him? Put him down? Pick him up?

Still learning but hanging in there. :)

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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2018, 08:40:43 am »
When he is crying but doesn't want picking up are you able to put firm hands on? Use a key phrase to reassure?
Just let him know you are there.

Some of the resistance to sleep could be developmental if he's trying to stand, it's common for any new skill to throw sleep off.

Just had a quick look at your other thread. He could probably do with having one good nap, more than 1hr, are you able to get one?  1.5-2hrs for one nap and another nap which may be shorter.


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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2018, 19:46:14 pm »
I try to put firm hands on him, but he pushes away and kind of flails around a bit/flips over/turns head back and forth or bang his legs on the mattress. I have a song I've sang to him his entire life that I sing in these moments, and sometimes stroking his hair seems to help settle him. I've done that his whole life as well...but honestly in the end when he eventually sleeps I have no idea what really did it.  ???

Yes! What do we do in this case, if it's a developmental leap? I've browsed Tracy's Solve all your Problems book but haven't seen anything yet.
Naps are very hard. My DH is working on LO's second nap, he skipped his first due to PU/PD the entire 1.5 hours :( So i definitely know he's exhausted but I hear him now putting up a fight. So his naps are all over the place. Some days 45 min, some days 2 hours. Trying our darndest to stick to a 4 hour EAS routine, he used to be awake from 7:30-11:30 back before I tried EASY. Poor guy, I messed him up so much!


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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2018, 07:48:10 am »
With the developmental leaps if you give as much opportunity as possible for the skill to be practised during A time there is a chance LO won't try to practise so much during nap time - that's the theory anyway. So for trying to stand, lots of floor time. Try to avoid too long in car seat, pram, high chair etc and give him as much floor time as possible.

I wonder if your routine times are not really suiting him?

When you say he used to be awake from 7.30 - 11.30 that's 4 hr A time, at this age some LOs need that much for perhaps one of their A times maybe not all. If you have reduced this quite a lot to stick to a 4hr EASY he could be UT.  After 6 months the 4 hr E can extend because the routine changes as they get older and any example you see in the books are only given as examples, not schedules.

I wonder too if the head movement is a kind of self soothing. Mine used to turn his head side to side repeatedly as a cue for needing sleep.  Self soothing doesn't always look calm, it can look quite frantic and energetic.

TBH if you are offering comfort I am not sure there is much else you can do.  You're there, he knows you are there, the offer to be held is given.


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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2018, 19:46:35 pm »
Thank you! I could definitely do more to ensure he has floor time. We have a small place and there isn't much room but I can make it happen. We are actually moving in the next couple of weeks and he will have way more room!!

Yes, I've been trying to keep him to the 2.5-3 hour awake time, usually closer to 3 but he did seem more ready for his naps back when it was 4 hours. Except, he will often rub his eyes and seem tired at the 2 hour mark and we will gear up for a nap but he snaps out of it. It's hard to go back and forth between going on his cues and keeping him on more of a time frame.

Your suggestions encourage me, thank you.

Also- he slept 10 hours straight the last two nights!!! Naps are still a huge struggle but I'll take the win!

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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2018, 17:59:45 pm »
I think your A times are probably too short which is causing you a struggle.
Here's a link to guidance times, I think you reduced to follow an example you saw which is understandable.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0
At this age you'd be on 3-4hr A time,  more like 3.5 rather than 3hr.  it can be over this for some LOs.
The sleepy cues you are seeing at 2hrs can be boredom.  Offer a change of activity for example a different toy to hold or move from one room to another, or if he's been mentally stimulated (eg reading together) try switching to physical (singing and hand clapping for example), possibly a snack if your LO is ready for snacks and it's a suitable time of day.


We are actually moving in the next couple of weeks and he will have way more room!!
I think I mentioned to you we have just moved. Our old place had no garden, a roof terrace with great views but rubbish for playing out. I used to take my DS to the park of course BUT in just 10 days he has developed his physical skills enormously now that we have a garden we can just open the door and go out.  He couldn't bounce a football (with his hand) more than 3 or 5 times in a row, now over 100 without dropping the ball.  And he learned to skip rope too.  I am amazed.
Good luck with your move.


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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2018, 19:39:37 pm »
Hi creations!

Yes, I did move his schedule around to follow Tracy's suggestion to implement EASY. :p I made it way harder for us all. It has been a bit better since my last post, the PU/PD periods still seem long and I'm pretty tired of it but things are slowly improving. We are on day 8. Would you say its typical for my LO to still fight it after this long? I knew it was too late for a 3 day miracle but am feeling worn out!

I also wanted to ask the forum for opinions; my DH and I have developed a modified pu/pd technique where LO will start to get up on his knees from laying on his stomach and we will gently turn him to his side. It can go on for 5 minutes straight: he gets on his belly, tucks up his knees, gets on one elbow, then we turn him back to his side. We find if we let him play (stand up, sit up...) he gets so stimulated. It's funny how lively my LO is! :)

We kid about how his determination in the face of complete exhaustion will really come useful some day!


That's very cool to hear about your move. I'm glad you and your LO can spend more time outdoors in your own space! That's so amazing. Has he adjusted well in other ways too? LIke with sleep?

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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2018, 07:50:28 am »
It's quite normal for there to be a regression at around day 5 with PUPD so that can make you feel like a big backwards step.  But you need the routine times to be suitable too.  It's hard to know what to suggest in terms of A time with not knowing what suits your LO but if you record your times you can post an EASY here for me to look at.  You don't want those A times too short, if there is a lot of resistance to settling that could be the reason. Maybe take him out of the room and try again 15 min later.

The modified method sounds fine.  LOs who are learning a skill such as standing can't help themselves, they just automatically do it, even in their sleep!
You're right to see the positive side of it!!! :)

My DS adjusted brilliantly, he's so happy!
I was pretty pleased with my organisation (bragging there), I put together a basket for him with his toiletries, PJs a few days clothes, and muslins (his lovey).  He also had a back pack filled with books, word search, toy, snacks, water bottle etc.
The day of the move the removal firm didn't leave until about 11pm.  My DS is usually in bed at 7pm or just after and lights out at 7.30pm every day. He doesn't like to go to bed late, he really likes his routine, dinner at a set time, TV time, shower, read in bed then his night time CD song with a cuddle.  It's very predictable. Of course none of that happened.  At about 9pm we brushed his teeth and changed him into PJs then I put a duvet on the living room sofa, handed him a muslin.  We didn't have his CD player so I employed the sleep song which is a huge sleep cue for him. It's been a long time since I had to sing it though. I sang it hundreds of times, at every sleep (5 naps per day and every NW) for about 2yrs before we switched to a CD - who knew I'd be using it when he was 7yo?  The room was too bright, my MIL talked all the way through (open plan living area) with DP glaring at her to be quiet, the removal company were banging about with wardrobes... and DS listened to his song, smiled and said "I'm ready" and I walked away. he was asleep in seconds.  By about midnight I had managed to make his bed up and I just went and woke him and told him he needed to walk up the stairs with me. He didn't even remember that the next day and was confused how he went to sleep on a sofa and woke in a bed.
Couple of days EW due to there only being one level of black out on his bedroom window. Once I got the second layer up he slept better in the morning (he's had 3 layers all his life now only 2).
I couldn't have asked for it to be any better than that.  My DS has only ever slept at home and once only in a hotel so it's quite a big deal to sleep somewhere new.

Fingers crossed your move goes just as smoothly :)


Offline Madrigal

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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2018, 06:09:58 am »
Hello!

We just finished day 12 and things are going much better. Changing his EASY for an A time of 4 hours was key! I feel like we reached a sweet spot of just tired enough. Naps are so much better and night times are okay. I also put DS to sleep exclusively now without help from DH and I think my son likes that.

He has slept 10 hours straight 2 times total. The last couple of nights he woke up two times, and I nursed both times but not in bed like I used to. I hope this is not ruining anything? DS has also been waking up from as early as 4:30 and not really settling back into sleep :(

Today:
WU @ just before 5am crying, not sure why since I had just put him down at 3:45am after a feed. He was really crying hard. I comforted him, tried pu/pd a few times, then just nursed him because he seemed so sad and almost like he was in pain? He didn't go back to sleep for longer than 10 min. So we began the day at 5:45 for the 3rd day in a row!

E (nursing) 5:45 just suckling really
A cuddles on the couch and some playing
E solids 6:30
A
S 9:30-11
E solids
A 11:30-2
E nurse 2:30
S 3-3:45
E solids 4, nurse, then more high chair, snacking/playing until 5

E solids 6(we were out at a friend's for dinner.)
A bedtime routine 6:40
S Pu/Pd from 7:10-7:45... no crying just happy, standing, laughing, so cute  ;D

woke up once at 8:45 pm, I think something woke him up. But I nursed him until drowsy and placed him back in the crib.

I'm expecting he will wake at around 3. Any advice on keeping to just one NW and getting rid of the 5am wake-up? :(

That's so good to hear about your son and the move!!!! It's so encouraging to see an LO so adjusted and secure in sleep that he had no problem in a completely new environment. Good job mom! That must have felt incredible. Your experience definitely compels me to keep it up! I'll let you know how our move goes!


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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2018, 06:47:25 am »
It's good to hear things are going more smoothly for you.
Although the 4hr is working well for the first nap, I wonder if it's too long for just before BT?
As he's only had a CN for nap 2 he could be getting OT before BT and this may be leading to the early wake up.
Sorry if I've asked this before but is the room totally blacked out?  Any chink of light can wake LOs very early and it makes it so hard to get back to sleep.  The crying suggests he is very tired if not in pain.  Have you tried meds for possible teething?


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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2018, 12:53:14 pm »
Sometimes if both naps were short he will have a 3rd CN around 5. But usually we just do an early bedtime, routine at 6:30 and sound asleep by 7. Hmm, maybe I could try pushing for that 3rd nap every time? I hadnít thought that OT could lead to an early wake. He woke this morning before 5 again. I nursed and did Pu/pd until 530 when he finally fell asleep so it seemed but woke up crying 5 min later ! :( then we did more Pu/pd but he was wanting the breast so now we are nursing again. But I fear he wonít go back down. Iím so sad haha.
His room is pretty dark but we have not gotten black out curtains. I hung a blanket over his window for a temporary fix. It could be the light. But then 4:45 thereís no sunlight yet. Hmm.

I really appreciate all your suggestions.


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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2018, 15:26:33 pm »
Regarding black out - not sure where you are but I know in the UK before Spring even starts to approach (in my view) and when it still appears to be dark out my DS will respond to the very very faintest of light changes.  Kitchen foil is a really good temporary fix if you use masking tape to put up you can mould it around the window and it will stop all light.  Even black out blinds let chinks in and around which is why I had 3 layers up for my DS.

Perhaps keep records of your EASY for a while and see if there is any link or pattern to the days when there have been 2 short naps and EBT (or 3 short naps) followed by EW.  I would aim to get the naps a good length rather than aiming for 3 naps per day at this age.

Hope this helps


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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2018, 21:44:31 pm »
Good idea with the foil, thanks!

So with working toward two decent naps, I should keep doing pick up pick down if they are short? I have been trying to keep record the past few weeks of everything. I donít understand it. Iíve gotta keep studying to see if I can make more sense Ornelas it

ITs day 13 and I think this is the biggest regression yet.

For example today-
Wu 4:55
Tried to put down a series of times, with breaks for poor diapers, up for next feed, etc. he fell asleep 4 separate times all lasting 5 minutes. He took one nap that was 45 min, I tried to extend it and couldnt.   :'( itís now 2:45 and heís has slept a total of that 45 minutes! Iím at a loss I donít understand and Iím so discouraged. Am I doing it all wrong?? Heís screaming now in his crib while Iím doing PD, Iím determined to get him to sleep. I know he will eventually

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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2018, 18:44:16 pm »
Hmm...I would have thought by now he would be settling down for his naps a bit easier than how it's sounding.
Can you post a full day (or 2) of EASY times please?  the actual times that happen across the day and night.


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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2018, 23:25:25 pm »
Hi !!

That day was still the worst one yet and things have gotten slightly better. It's been 3 weeks.

Lately, we have been having trouble with EW, afternoon nap, and NWs.

Here are some EASYs:

Sunday 8/19

WU @ 6:05, talkative not crying which was different
E 6:30 bf
A 6:45-730
E 7:30 solids *very fussy didn't eat much
S in car 8:30 about 15 min (this isn't typical but we had errands)
A
E nursed before nap 9:55am
S 10-11:15 woke up happy!

E bf snack
A crawling/cuddling for like 10 min
E solids @ 11:45 strawberries, cheese bunnies
A
S CN maybe 3-3:30 pretty fussy, did NOT want to go back to sleep
A Fussy playtime, didn't really nurse
E solids 5:30
A bedtime routine very fussy throughout!
S 7:15

NW 10:30pm *unusual
NW 1am
NW 2:20am Nursed back to sleep each time
__

Monday 8/20

WU @ 5:30
E nursed 5:40
A was very fussy, rubbing eyes, wanting cuddles so I thought he wanted to go back down. He's often like this in the morning.
E nursed a little he fell asleep for 5 min... then up and solids
A play. by 8 was very fussy
S 8:30-9 screamed and sobbed when he woke. Big tears!! Hard to console.
E rice pasta, grapes, pb sandwich bites **seemed grumpy this whole time
E nurse @ 10:15 pu/pd until 11.
A
S 1:10-1:50 I didn't have it in me to push for more :(
E 2:00 solids and bf
A
S in car 30 min at around 4:15
E 5:15 solids, not eating well, very fussy and acting sleepy
A 5:40 started bedtime routine
S at 7:15 took from 6-7:15 for him to actually fall asleep. I tried pu/pd and struggled so much so eventually let him fall asleep in my arms not nursing and put him into his crib.

NW only once at 2am.



My main struggles/questions:

1. Is my order of bedtime routine messing things up/accidental parenting? bath, massage and song, pajamas, quiet play, book, then nurse? I nurse because it seems to be the only thing that really calms him. After 10 min or so when he is drowsy I pick him up and talk to him and make sure he stirs at least. But i admit often times he's pretty out at this point.
2. Why is he so fussy during the day? It seems obvious that he's tired, especially after his EW but why won't he settle back to sleep?
3. For his afternoon nap, I notice he is tired after 3 hours of A time, even though its been 4 hours for so long. What could this be? But then often he will resist this nap the most when I try and put him down.

Trying to understand this lil guy. Thank you so much for your help, creations!!!!! :-*

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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2018, 09:28:34 am »
Hi there, sorry I don't have time right now to really look at your EASYs, my DS needs some attention :)
I will come back though to have a proper look.
One thing I notice at a (very brief) glance is it looks like you are still running 3 naps if there is a short nap. I think your LO is almost 10 months now and it might work out better for you to really push to a 2 nap routine with one long nap and one CN...and to be strict with the times. Tracy was pretty strict with timings when setting up routines, maybe this is what's needed in your case?


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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2018, 15:14:45 pm »
Those days might not be typical but what I notice is the first nap being pretty early in the day. I know sometimes it can feel like hey need to go down early after an EW but it could be adding to the problem.
As his A time has been 4hrs for a while I think I would hold off on the morning nap until 10am, this means a 4hr A from a 6am WU.  If he wakes earlier than 6am the A will be longer but you might need to stick with the clock for a while to establish a more predictable consistent routine with him.
I'd try something like:
WU whatever time (hoping for later)
A 4hr or more
S 10am or at least 4hrs (if morning wake up is later than 6am then move the nap later), aim for 1.5 - 2hr nap, wu at 11.30/12.00
A 4hr (only less if you feel he is really really tired or if nap 1 was short but the aim is to extend nap 1 and get it consistent)
S 3.30/4.00 (depending on length of previous nap) 30-45 min or up to 1hr
A 3hr 30
BT 7.30/7.45/8.00 depending on previous nap times and length. Latest will work out to be 8.30pm which seems pretty late but if this happens once or twice it may help to move the WU time the next morning.
it's still a bit of trial and error to work out the best routine.  The A time may need to be longer than 4hr to get a good nap.

On occasion LOs can wake crying (and crying quite hard) when they have had an UT nap.  This can be misleading and misread as being OT or still needing a longer nap, I experienced this with my DS.  The way I understood it in the end (and this happened when he was a toddler of 2.5 years too) is like times when during the day I have had a nap and wake up wishing I hadn't fallen to sleep because I feel rotten.  You ever done that?  Or pre-kids if you woke in the morning then went back to sleep and woke later and felt really wiped out and groggy and feeling that the extra sleep just didn't do you any good?  So we might generally think that we wouldn't fall asleep unless we were tired but I know as an adult if I sleep in the day I feel rough when I wake or if I go to bed particularly early feeling really tired I might then wake early and feel worse for it the following day.  When my DS was going through a routine change he looked OT (tired, grumpy, going down for nap without refusal, short nap, waking crying) but the trick was to increase his A time and this resulted in a good long nap and he woke happy.

Some LOs at 10 months are on over 4hrs A time for one or more of the As, it may be your LO needs one longer.


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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2018, 18:52:39 pm »
Wow this is great thank you so much! Iíll try your suggestions about the 4 hour A time and naps being at 10. I definitely donít keep to a clock well and tend to try and read his cues but. I feel Iím getting them wrong often times. That makes a bunch of sense about the UT naps or unnecessary sleep.

Thanks again!!!! Donít know what Iíd do without this forum... :)

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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2018, 19:07:10 pm »
:)

See how you go and let me know. There may not be instant improvement of course but hopefully this will help.
Try to keep a record of your EASY so if we need to have a look you know what your times are.


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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2018, 21:12:22 pm »
Will do! Our move went great by the way. Bubís crawling got so good and heís clapping Ann Dunham loving all the space!

Also, do you have any good suggestions for nap routines? Do you think my nursing right before transferring him to the crib disturbs his ability to self soothe even if I donít put him down asleep? Iím really nervous to separate/dissociate nursing and sleep bc I donít feel ready for the drama that will cause!

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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2018, 07:33:09 am »
I'd be reasonably certain he's in the habit of eating before sleep and using it as soothing even if you are putting him down awake.  If you aren't ready to change it though then thre's no point worrying about it.  It's probably easier to change than if you were feeding all the way to sleep.

Good to hear the move went well :)


Offline Madrigal

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Re: Reservations about starting PU/PD- advice??
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2018, 19:15:08 pm »
Hi there creations and anyone else! Hope you're well :)

It's been a long last several weeks. We've been up and down with sleep, at the moment he doesn't nurse to sleep anymore, just to drowsy. Which is awesome! And wasn't a difficult transition. Then I read a book and sing his song and set him down. For pretty much all of September, it went great!! He'd either roll over and go to sleep, or hang out in his crib from anywhere to 10-30 minutes before falling asleep. Oftentimes I'd have to go over and pd from sitting up or standing, other times he'd just eventually settle without me. I stay in the room until he's asleep every night. I've progressively moved toward the door, but I've been just near the door for a week now, I can't seem to do the last step of leaving the room.
The last week and a half or so he's been screaming a ton at naptime and bedtime. Not just crying, screaming. He's been teething but its hard for me to know if this one tooth is the only culprit?

I'm wondering creations, have I been doing PD wrong? I don't do it every time he cries out, often I'll just use my words, "It's okay sweetie its just time to sleep. I love you." But it's been over a month of this system of not nursing to sleep and he still has a dificult time going down.

WU @ 6:30
E nurse
A
E
S 10:30-11:45 usually
E solids
A
E
A
S in car ~3:45-4:30 while we pick daddy up from work
E dinner 5:30
A some play, bedtime routine...
E nurse
S after 30ish min on avg of crib time 7:30

He still has NW at least once a night, we've had a few nights where its been several times. I nurse him each time.

I don't know, do you have any suggestions?

Thanks :)