8 month old - short naps and playing during night wakings

[Moon92]

Hi all,

I am the mom of an 8 1/2 month little girl, who used to wake up once sometimes twice a night until 8 month then she started waking up 6-8 times per night and wanting to nurse 3-4 times. We are in day 4 of pu/pd and so far things are going great, not too much crying and 2-3 wakings/ night with 2 nursing session.
So I am quite happy with the nights but since we have done this, her naps went from two naps a day of 1:30 hour morning and 30’-1h in the afternoon to 2 or 3 naps pf 30 min. She definitely wakes up tired and unhappy but don't manage to get back to sleep on her own, I need to go back to her when she wakes up and help her by picking her up a few seconds, putting her back in bed and patting her until she is drowsy, then I can shhh and I stop everything right before she falls asleep when her eyes finish closing.
So, I have several questions :
- Am I doing this the right way by going back to her and patting her for the naps ? If I don’t she wakes up and don’t manage to get back to sleep by herself for the naps, and she is pretty exhausted (she has a sore throat, and has accumulated fatigue of the last 3 weeks). Any tips how I can manage to get her sleep longer for her naps ? At least one of them ?
- At night she wakes up and goes back to sleep by herself (I put her back awake or at least drowsy after nursing, she does not always fall asleep on the breast anyway) but she plays for about 30 min before she goes back to sleep. Any tips on decreasing this playtime or getting her to wake up less often ? Last night I just did not go to her for the second wake up, except one or two “shhh shh it’s night, we sleep” and she played for a good 30min. Then for the third wake up I had to leave the room and come back reposition her, say to stop playing, pat a little bit and then go to sleep and leave her awake: she played about 10 min but total time with nursing going back to her etc…took a good 30min again…
- I intend to reduce nursing session to 1 tonight and also not to sleep in her room, she seemed not to really be aware I was in the room the previous nights do you think it is too early to reduce nursing to once a night ?
Sorry for very long post, thank you for reading and for your answers

[creations]

Hi there and welcome to BW forums

Sorry you didn't get a reply to this yet, I see you've been paying it forward and supporting others already too, that's great!

Do you think your LO might have been having a growth spurt with all those additional NW and NFs?  Or was it going on too long for a GS?

Do you think your LO is low sleep needs perhaps?  has she tended to have longer than average A times for example or drop to 2 naps earlier than 6 months?

I am not great with BF advice to be honest but I have seen that it is very normal to have more than one NF until a year or more.

I could perhaps help with the nap and night routine though.  Could you record a full day EASY and post it please, can you show the real times things happened with a note about how you settled her, resettled or extend a nap or what her mood was like.

When naps were good was she self soothing?  Did you shush/pat all the way to sleep or to drowsy? Where did she sleep (cot/sling/pram/car??) and is it the same place now?  If she is an independent sleeper what method did you use to sleep train?

Sorry for so many questions, it helps to see the bigger picture.

[Moon92]

Hello!

Thank you for your answer, there was a jet lag after vacation/teething/developmental leap/growth spurt combo, we waited for it to pass and there is definitely some habits (the wakings have been lasting for over 3 weeks before we decided to sleep train) when we started pu/pd 6 days ago we went from 6-8 wakings to 3 wakings/night, the night after I posted this it seemed to be better for how long she would stay playing before going back to sleep, until today when the regression hit strong...she woke up 10 times and would only sleep if pat-shushed to sleep!
I don't think she is low sleep, her normal is 2-2:30 hours of sleep during the day and 11 at night, recently she dropped to 2 naps: first is 60-90min and 2nd is 30-60min,she was then not self soothing. Since we started sleep training she would nap this long if I go in and help her link the cycles by patting shushing until she is almost asleep.

It seemed to get better for naps and nights after my post but since last night it is worse than when we started, here is yesterdays's schedule :

around 7:30 wakingup / breakfast
8:30 - 10: 30 Activity I nurse her around 10 and we play a little bit again after that
10:30 - nap time, falls asleep rapidly
11:00 wake up crying and rubbing her eyes, shh pat for 5-10 min
11:10-11:40 sleep
11:40-12:30 lunch
12:30-14:30 Activity (nursing @14:00)
14:40-16:00 Sleep (linked the cycle on her own this time!)
16:00 snack
16:30 -18 Activity
18:00 - nursing then bath
18:30 - dinner
19:30 - start night routine
20:00 - bedtime
20:30 asleep (usually it takes her 5min to get asleep but this time 30 min!)
woke up at : 23:00, 01:30 (nursed), 3:00, 3:30, 4:00, 4:50, 5:10 (nursed), 6:00, 6:30, 7:00, 7:30
she woke up crying and rubbing her eyes, we need to pat-shush until she falls asleep and we needed to pick her up once or twice for the 23h and 3h waking.
Today, she was tired and slept 30min at 9:15 which changed the usual schedule, she was grumpy and more difficult to settle for sleep.
 
I read there was a regression I did not expect it to be so violent, she was really doing good, and most importantly I don't know if I am doing the right things ? I try to shush pat and stop before she falls asleep but if she is too upset I do it until she is asleep. When I nurse her she falls asleep on my breast at night so I put her in an upright position after that and put her down drowsy in her bed. Do you think I need to let her cry a bit more before I go in? When we started I would let her cry a little so she get a chance to settle and it worked well, but yesterday she would get really upset really fast and if I stop to pat her she makes me understand I need to continue...Do you know how long does the regression last?

Thank you again for your help !

[creations]

From what you have said I am guessing you have followed a different sleep training method or parenting book perhaps.
Baby Whisperer doesn't agree with leaving LO to cry at all so there is never a time when we'd suggest this or suggest letting a LO cry more.  We dont' use any form of CC or CIO.  Here's a link for further reading:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=19710.0
In fact, if you have left her to cry some this could be the cause of such a "violent" regression.  You may need to spend some time re-connecting to totally reassure her that you are not going to leave her and will always return when she needs you.
The only time a LO would "cry" with BW is a mantra cry which is really not a cry at all, it's more of a rhythmical moan or wordless chant, there are no tears, LO isn't upset, and it doesn't escalate.  If there is any doubt you should go in rather than not.

For 8 months her A times in the morning are pretty short and this could be why she finds it harder to link the sleep cycles and waking crying, here's the guidance times:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0
At 8 months you'd be looking at around 3hr 30 although of course all LOs are different and some need longer/shorter.
I would increase the first A time from 3hr to 3hr 15 for a few days, see how she is then perhaps in crease again to 3hr 30
The second A time will probably increase too.
The last A time looks like 4hrs at the moment (and took 4hr 30 when she wouldn't go to sleep), this is super long considering how short the other times are.  If your LO has shown that she needs this length of time before sleeping at night then fair enough, they are all individuals but to me it looks like a cause of OT and problems with NWs.
I would suggest reducing the last A time down to 3hrs, not in steps but straight off.  if there is resistance to sleep just tell her you're sorry you got it wrong, take her out for another 15 min A time and try again.

I try to shush pat and stop before she falls asleep but if she is too upset I do it until she is asleep.

This is fine. If she needs picking up to calm her it's also fine. The idea is to help and support your LO as much as is needed but also working towards getting her to nod off in her cot.

With regards to the rest of the routine. I am guessing you forgot to type in some of the E times.  LOs this age would be expected to have 4 milk feeds in the day (or more if you top up BF right after a solids meal) and depending on the LO possibly 1 or 2 at night.  If you don't have the 4 BF in the day hours this could also add to problems at night with the need for milk.  I can see solids meals and snacks in the routine but not much day milk which is why I am raising it.

[Moon92]

Ok, so I realize I was not clear or maybe I did not understand the method very well. From what I understood you are not supposed to pick the baby up right away but rather wait and observe and give them a chance to settle on their own and try to comfort them in the bed first, but then if they cry hard you pick them up. That is what I have done, did I misunderstand?
When I talk about letting her cry I should say fuss,  I definitely don't want her to cry hard and leave her with her despair, and it is about 2-3 min of seriously fussing never more, the reason I did that is because as long as I was in the room she would engage and play with me and become very stimulated babbling, playing, more and more excited, and would not settle down. So I told her it is time to sleep now and then I would leave the room for a couple minutes, so she fusses and have a kind of "protest crying" (no tears) showing she does not agree, and either she settles down after 2 min and start to calm down or she cries for real, in both cases I go back in to see how she is doing or to pick her up if she started crying and then I stay there, until asleep for the first 2 days, then until almost asleep for the following days and leave the room. Yesterday she was very clingy, I would not let her fuss more than few seconds and pick her up, I should have written it this way, but then I was constantly doubting If I am messing everything up ? 
As for the shush pat, that reassures me because I was worrying it was becoming a prop. she makes it very clear that's what she wants until asleep. If I stop she turns and protest so I resume patting.

For nursing, I forgot to mention the last session before bed, that makes it 4 nursing/day (around, 10am, 2pm, 5pm, 8pm) sometimes 5 depending on what time she nursed at night. Basically when I give one feeding at night I nurse her before breakfast, but if I do 2 feedings at night usually the second one happens 1and1/2 to 2 hours before wake up so she is not interested in nursing before breakfast. I keep an eye on her diapers to make sure she had enough.

Thank you for having a look at how our day is shaped, I will definitely try to increase the activity time during the day and to shorten the time before bed time. Thank you again so much for your guidance I am questioning myself all the time I am so afraid to be doing things wrong I can't bear with all the night waking but I can't imagine doing CIO methods that's why I want it so bad to work for us, I can not see another solution

[creations]

OK, sorry if I misread your previous thread.
Try not to be too worried about getting things wrong, if you are responding to your LO and there to help then nothing is wrong - in my opinion it is never wrong to comfort and cuddle and you can't do too much of it.  Don't worry you aren't going to break your LO by helping her sleep or by shush/patting all the way to sleep.
With your description I think you are being very supportive and mostly in the room with her. The only thing I might suggest is this:

I would leave the room for a couple minutes, so she fusses and have a kind of "protest crying" (no tears) showing she does not agree,

I know you are going back in and I know there are times we do need to wait and see if our LOs settle, if they are just chatting to themselves or doing a mantra or grumbling, constantly going in can disturb them if they are trying to self sooth, however the "protest cry" of disagreement I would probably respond to it.  Let's say she could speak or was an adult what would she be saying "Hey get back here I am not happy about this!"  whilst she is not crying hard perhaps just ask yourself if she is calling out for you, if a toddler or older child shouted out "Mummy come here" you would respond even if it was only to say "It is time to go to sleep, now go to sleep, night night, love you".  With the respectful methods we go back to our LOs when they call us even if they are not crying, in fact I believe they cry less because they know they can just call out.
I think in one of Tracy's books she describes her key phrase at sleep time as something like "sleep well, call if you need me".  I have always said to my LO "call if you need me", he doesn't need to be crying hard. Make sense?
Admittedly there are times when the number of call-backs is exhausting and somewhat frustrating but they can be tackled in another way and still responded to.  Developmental leaps, being unable to get to sleep due to UT or something else will cause repeated call backs and give us a clue that something needs attention.

You might find that with the adjusted A times things are a bit easier - I hope so!

Use the shush/pat as much as needed if she is very fussy or not settling. When she is settling and calm, that's the time to reduce reduce...I describe it as an on/off stop/start.  Use less pressure, vary the rhythm, go slower, stop a moment, start again.  Varying the rhythm and stopping will make her have a little fuss because as you said she wants it all the way to sleep (and that's okay if she has been having a hard time) so start again and increase the rhythm or firmness as or before she starts to fuss then she doesn't need to fuss too much, but then reduce again.  Does it make sense?  It's a back and forth kind of thing so that she gets used to some moments without the pat either with hands off or with a firm hand left on her but as she is about to protest the comfort returns.

Hopefully the NWs will reduce when you change the day routine too.

Let us know how you get on

[Moon92]

Thank you for your answer, well I respond to her call and talk to her but at some point we need to be firm too. It is never wrong to comfort but the way we do it may have consequences, that is how accidental parenting happens and that is how she has a very strong arms/motion or nursing to sleep association. I love to cuddle with my daughter but I would like her to understand and learn that she can fall asleep on her own and I would like to help her with that.
Anyway, here are some news : Nights are better she is waking up 3-4 times a night so slowly getting there, it is not as goos as when we started this or as she used to do before (around 6 month she would wake up once sometimes 2 a night). I am also stuck with another problem : she needs to be pat to sleep now, and yesterday I lost my nerves as it was really getting worse : we went from patting to calm down to patting to almost asleep at the beginning of that 5 day regression by te following day we were then to patting to sleep, then a few minutes after sleep (or wakes up and cries and will not go back to sleep) to almost constantly patting, stopping = wake up. So yesterday at 6, it was just too much and drove me crazy. All of this started so well I really had a lot of hope and it really dragged me down when I realised we have so much difficulty to move forward from that regression because we probably intervened too much to help her settle/sleep. She knows to go back to sleep on her own but she is not doing it anymore and as soon as she sees me she cries so I come and pat her or pick her up. I am a bit depressed and find this method very tricky... I think we will need to start over to wean her from the patting so it means again some hard time for her and for us and this really saddens me and tires me physically and nervously. We are still giving it a little bit of time to try to gently wean her from the patting or any other prop but it is very difficult...
Thank you for reading my posts, answering me and offering your help.
If something works I will post a feedback on the forum

[Moon92]

Oh also for the naps, we are still stuck on that 30 min wake up yesterday I more or less could help her transition by patting her but the couple days before I needed to keep patting when asleep when I stop she would wake up a couple minutes after that. I tried extending activity time but it did not work she was pretty clear when she was tired and sleepy. I even tried wake to sleep yesterday but she still woke up at the 30 min mark...

[creations]

Hi there
I've hurt my back (an ongoing problem) and unable to sit at the computer to respond properly. Just wanted to say, keep plugging away...
catch up with you when I am a bit better.