UT/OT 4 Month Old. Im confused!

[LindaQ]

Hello ladies. My lo has been on EASY since we took her home from hospital.
From 10 weeks everything went a little nutty. Shes now 4months or 17.5 weeks.
Im trying to figure out where her A times are OT or UT!

Todays EASY
Session 1:
E: 7am
A: (1hr 55m)
S: 8:55am. Woke at 10:15am resettled but not for long. (Total sleep : 1hr20m)

Session 2:
E: 10:40
A: (1hr35m)
S: 12:15. Woke at 12:46 (30m nap). Resettled at 1:10. (Total sleep: 1hr 10m)

Session 3:
E: 1:50
A: (1hr 30m)
S: 3:20. Woke at 3:48 (38m nap). Resettled on and off. 4:40 was rooting so quick feed.  Total sleep: 1hr ?m)

E: 5:20
A: (1hr 40m)
BT: 7pm

DF: 10:30pm
NF: For the past 3 days shes been waking up erratically sometimes 3 times a night whereas in the past it was only once anywhere between 3:30am to 6am

I know they go through a massive growth spurt at 3/4months and we're suppose to be moving towards a 4 hour easy.

My question : Are the A times for session 2 and 3 causing the naps and are they OT or UT?!?!
I put her down to sleep awake and sometimes if shes upset, a few quick chest pats and shes quiet and falls asleep independently. Shes usually asleep within a few minutes of putting her down.

[Katet]

It's confusing with babies in the first 6months, while often 30min naps can be Overtired and 45 under-tired, they can also be the fact the baby hasn't learned to join sleep cycles together.

Where you say "supposed" to be moving towards 4 hour easy, it's a concept rather than an absolute. Lots Tracy wrote about in her books has now been shown by research to be not necessarily best for baby. As an example BF babies may never go 4 hours between feeds, while FF ones can, they may not be able to do Awake time & sleep time to match 4 hour cycles.
EASY isn't about clock timing, it's more about separating Eat from Sleep, so sleep associations aren't around sucking.

I'm looking at the day you gave above I'd say it was pretty good & I think the problem isn't so much Under tired, as you's struggle to resettle or Over-tired as you'd probably have more fight when trying to get her to sleep at the start of a nap BUT that in developmental terms she's still working on linking sleep cycles.

What you are doing in resettling her is good, esp if you get in early enough so she doesn't wake up too much.

If she's BF I'd definitely try to squeeze in more day feed in the late afternoon as 5.20pm to 10.30 is a long time to go & so it would make sense she then wants t feed more at night.

Just out of interest do you use a soother/Paci as that would change things too & may be why the waking in between sleep cycles happens.

[creations]

Hello and welcome to BW forums

I would suggest that the A times are a touch too short, guidance times at 4 months are 1hr 45 to 2hrs (obviously depending on the individual LO) so 1hr 30 could well be leading to an UT nap, sometimes LOs are still tired enough to try to sleep a little but not tired enough to sleep properly.  I think I'd aim for 1hr 45 on those A times which are shorter than that, you can still run the first one longer at the 1hr 55 if that is working for your LO.
Perhaps also try being in the room ready to resettle as/before she stirs, this is a wake to sleep method which is really useful in helping LO learn the habit of longer napping and transitioning between sleep cycles, here's a link, see naps option 1
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=223809.0
You don't have to go in at 30 mins, you can adjust this method to your own situation if you have a rough idea how long your LO is napping for just go in 5-10 min before hand ready to pat.

hope this helps

[LindaQ]

Lots Tracy wrote about in her books has now been shown by research to be not necessarily best for baby. As an example BF babies may never go 4 hours between feeds, while FF ones can, they may not be able to do Awake time & sleep time to match 4 hour cycles.

Thankyou for clarifying, its been 5.5 years since my firstborn!

Just out of interest do you use a soother/Paci as that would change things too & may be why the waking in between sleep cycles happens.

She was a such a sleepy baby for the first 10weeks that i didnt need to use one. Shes now starting to chew her hands so hopefully she'll be able to use these to self soothe in the future.

I think I'd aim for 1hr 45 on those A times which are shorter than that, you can still run the first one longer at the 1hr 55 if that is working for your LO.

i've started to increase her A times a little by little. We're now on 1hr45-55 A times and it has helped in terms of resettling so i'll continue with these A times and hopefully at some stage she'll link both sleeps.


Since i last posted (only 6 days ago)
- ive started to unswaddle one side since she started rolling over. Oddly she seems more calmer with one hand out even though she doesnt use it to soothe.
- she seems to be handling the tiredness alot better. i notice she gets tired and whiny around the 1.5hr mark. I then walk her around doing housework and putting things away for 20mins. I have noticed that if she starts sooking its time for bed.
- she still cries abit before bed, but now i change her to distract her and she quietens down.  I swaddle one side and put her into her bed and she falls asleep within minutes.
- she still wakes up around the 30min mark, but i can go in and resettle her and she seems to go back to sleep alot easier (with a little bit of crying and alot less screaming!) Which i put it down to the increased A times.
- 30mins before bed i offer her a topup bottle. She takes anywhere between 20mls and 60mls.

In hindsight, the crying/screaming before bed must have been undertired or hunger. I just didnt get the memo. lol.

[LindaQ]

Hi All, I noticed there were a few views on this thread so thought i might just update you all with our progress!

She is now 5mo (on the 2nd Jan). Our day now looks like this.
Awake & Feed: 6am
Top up: 7:30am
Sleep: 8am

Wake: Anywhere between 9:30am to 10am -> I generally have to resettle her at the 45min mark or the 1hr mark. I did notice that when i resettle her she turns her head to the side signalling that she definitely wants to go back to sleep. If shes slept for 1.5hr sometimes shes ok to get up and other times, shes cranky with me the whole time! So now, even at 1.5hr of sleep i will try to put her back to sleep for 10mins. if that fails, then we get up.
Feed: Usually about 45mins after she wakes up and a top up 30mins before nap time.
Sleep: 2hrs after shes woken up.

Wake: 1:30-2pm
A: 2hrs
S: 3:30-4pm

I try to let/make her sleep till 5pm which means bed time is 7pm. I find if i put her down earlier (6:30pm) she wakes up and needs to be resettled. Anywhere between 7-7:30pm is the magic time for us which allows her to sleep uninterrupted.
Dream feed at 11pm and wakes up at 6am. She does wake up sometimes anywhere between 4-6am, i generally try to resettle her for 5mins (without a feed) if she still hasnt fallen asleep i'll feed her in which case it knocks her out!

Resettling has become alot easier, and i put that down to a developmental thing. I hold one hand and pat her chest until she zones out.

We only got to the 2hr awake times by accident! We were out and about so much with christmas planning and shopping. It definitely was alot easier keeping her entertained when we were out!

We are still swaddled with one arm in even though shes rolling like a pro. Ive had to get those anti-rolling things to stop her from rolling and now watch the monitor like a hawk. When she has both arms out, she fluffs around and gets over tired. So i'll try both arms out for day sleeps in a few weeks time.

Thats all from us for now.

[creations]

Happy new year and thanks for the update

Just a note that A times increase quite rapidly now.  By/at 6 months LOs are commonly on 3hrs A time.  of course some will be on shorter and some on longer based on individual needs but the chances are that your DD could be settling a bit easier if you increased her A a little more.  Rather than having to go in so regularly to resettle at 45 min or 1hr and also trying to keep her asleep longer than 1.5hr as this doesn't seem to be enough to get her in a good mood, if you add to the A time then she could go over on her own and sleep longer.  Worth a shot I think.  Obviously you still help if/when needed.
It wouldn't be unusual for a LO at 5 months to be on 2hr 30 min.  You can increase in increments rather than a big 30 min jump.  Sleeping better, being more tired, might also help drop the swaddle, she may need swaddling or half swaddling to get to sleep but you might then be able to unwrap her once alseep to reduce the dangers of rolling etc.
My DS wasn't swaddled past about 10 wks and never for nights but I did used to give him his lovey to fall asleep when he was younger than is "safe" I just left him a few mins to get comfort from it and nod off then I went back in to remove it so his full nap was safer.