any april/may 05 moms want to chat?

[teresamac]

My son has a wonderful daytime routine as I have mentioned before, but our nights need a little work.  He goes down between 8/8:30.  We do a dreamfeed before we go to bed.  From trial and error, I have learned when he wakes in the night he isn't really hungry and the times I have fed him he doesn't want to eat when he wakes in the morning (6:30/7) so we stopped offering the bottle in the middle of the night.  What I usually do is go in and pat his back and he is back asleep in seconds...how can I prevent this night waking if it isn't for hunger???  and let me add that it is not at the same time every night.  I would love some advice as I would like the chance to sleep thru the night.  My other question when switching to 3.5/4 hour EASY do you increase the amount of food you offer at a feeding??

[krice]

Teresa - I'm not too clear on when you are giving your DF.  Is it before the bedtime of 8:00/8:30?  Most DF's are given between 10 and 11pm.  Have you tried this time with your LO?  The later time could help your LO go longer through the night.  As to increasing the amount of food from a 3.5 hr EASY to a 4hr one . . . when we dropped a bottle (went from 5 daytime down to 4) I made sure my LO took the same total amount of food.  So each feed increased by about 1oz.

Kate - glad to hear Liam is so smiley.  I was just saying to dh this morning that if we have another I'm certain we won't luck out again and get a baby with such an even temperament.  It's hard to take my LO's pouty face seriously when I see it - he's just not that convincing!

[teresamac]

sorry...we give the dreamfeed before my husband and I go to bed which is about 11:00 to 11:30 so we are giving a later feed!!   I figured i would have to increase his bottle by an ounce or so to keep him at the same amount...i thought that was the goal.  Still looking for more suggestions....last night was rough for us, but we made it through

[krice]

Teresa - with the night wakings . . . are they at the same time every night?  If so, it could be habitual waking.  Or do they vary?  Your LO could very well be hungry (or starting his 3 month growth spurt a little early).

What about swaddling?  Is he waking himself in the night because he is flailing about?  When we changed swaddles at night, my LO's sleep patterns changed totally.

What does your daytime routine look like right now?  Perhaps that needs to be 'tweaked' a little in order for the nights to be more successful.

Anyone else out there have any other ideas?

[Taylor's Mommy]

Teresa-is he only waking once during the night?  Does he fall asleep independently?  Since he is still so young it sounds like he needs you to help him go back to sleep.  Although I have heard that even if they know how to fall asleep independently, they still sometimes need us to reassure them.  Does it happen every single night?

We have been working on moving to a 4 hour EASY for the last 10 days now and it is going okay, but a little wonky.  She definitely has no problem going teh longer time between feeds, but napping is still a challenge...some days her first nap is great, then the next 2 are tough, and tehn the next day her first and last nap are bad, and her middle nap are great! :roll:   And now she has started this thing where she will turn her head and look straight at me and smile, then start crying, then smile, etc. while I am trying to extend her nap!  I can't tell if she's happy and mad that I'm trying to make her sleep or still tired!  I will be so happy when we only have to do 2 naps a day and 1 catnap!  Tomorrow we start with dropping the one day time feed so wish us luck!

katet-hope Liam and Aiden are doing better!  And Krice-you two look soooo cute in the pool!

hope everyone is doing good!
Andrea

[Katet]

Well Liam is back to being Mr easy & had good nights (1-2 wakeups between 7pm & 6am) but he has decided he wants to start the day at 6am whether he has a feed at 4am or 5.30am!! I think I need to give him more awake time & stimulation in the day. He is a chatty fellow & now tells me he is awake with a little chat rather than a cry & the same goes for when he is bored or tired... I only get an odd cry now when he is overtired! Yeh!

I thought I'd share my experience with Aiden (of me being more the cause of his night waking than the solution) for future reference for everyone. Firstly Aiden can settle off to sleep easily at night & used to resettle well too,  but due to teething/illness etc night wakings have been more the norm than not for the last few months... for the full story I posted on this on the Toddler sleep board... but when your lo can sleep through the night & then starts waking up... don't rush in. I am back with what I used to do about 12 months ago (& forgot about doing) I start counting to 100 then decide, if I get silence before 100 for a count of 10 or more, I start recounting... & I've only had to get up to Aiden after 6am the last 2 mornings & I can't be sure it hasn't been due to Liam "singing away"

[teresamac]

ladies thank you for brainstorming with me....our typical day looks like this...

6:30 feed
7-7:30 play
7:30 -10 sleep
10 feed
10:30 - 11:15 play
11:15 - 1:00 sleep
1:00 feed
1:30 -2:45 play
2:45-4:00 sleep
4:00 feed
4 - 5:30 play
5:30 sleep
6:30 eat
6:30 - 7:45 play
7:45 get ready for bed and hopefully in bed asleep by 8:30 (get bottle at bed time)
11:00 dream feed

So that is a normal day...the time at night varies....what happens is he wakes and I try to wait, but I am such a sound sleeper (and my husband is worse)...I am not sure how long he was crying before I heard him and I go in....I reswaddle if he has broken out....give him his paci and then pat his back till he is restful which is within seconds then he spits out the paci meaning he is really asleep and then I go back to bed.  This waking could be anywhere from 1-3.  The next waking is at the 5 hour, but sometimes he makes it to 6:30 if he doesn't then I know he is hungry because he keeps waking every 15 minutes, but what do I do feed him at 5 and then when do I start the day?  Sometimes if  feed at 5 he thinks it is time to start the day and that is a little to early for me!!
So this week has been crazy for us my granddad passed away and on the very same day his oldest son (my uncle) was killed in a car crash so needless to say we have been in survival mode and Ethan has been left with people so there has been a lot of grace...anyway yesterday was the funeral for my granddad and I was so drained that when he woke at 4:45 I fed him because I knew i needed more sleep and could be waking every 30 minutes or so if i didn't feed him.....who knew I could be so long winded....anyway then he slept till 7:30 (fine by me) but he didn't really want to eat and that was why I started trying to hold him off when he woke in the night. 

If you have any more thoughts I would appreciate it...I am so thankful for all of you who are willing to let us read about your life and learn!!!

[jjstar]

teresamac...I am so sorry to hear of your loss.

One comment I have with regards to your schedule is that in the new book Tracy mentioned never letting a nap go longer than 2 hours. I noticed that your first nap times show 2.5 hours. Just a thought that this might be part of it.

I have a question of my own...with regards to habitual waking in the night. If it ranges 2 until 3 does that still count as habitual or how close to the same time should it be? LO acts like he is hungry and takes a full feed but I'm afraid I'm not fixing it. This past friday and sat. he went the whole night without waking but that hasn't happened again since sat. He is 3 months today and I wasn't sure what to do. I can't decide if I should treat this one night waking as habitual or feeding. Plus last night he was fighting sleep for almost 90 minutes until he finally fell asleep at 8:45. I was so exhausted from shh/patting almost screamed. Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks!

[cambeladamom]

it has been awhile since i have written anything. but i have been keeping up with reading the posts. teresamac-i am so sorry about your loss.
my lo wakes up at inconsitent times at night when he is not hungry-so i don't have any advice.
however, i do have a question. we have been trying to move to 4 easy, but i don't think cambel is quite ready for it yet. i have been trying to figure out this night waking thing. i have asked about it on another thread, so i am not sure i have explained it here. cambel can go 10 hours at night without eating, but he wakes up 2 or 3 times before he needs to eat. he will usually go back to sleep with his paci, or if he is reswaddled. but i am tired of getting up:) the miracle blanket doesn't seem to help. somehow he can break out of it. also, his morning wake up time is very inconsistent. he can wait to eat until 5:30 or 6, so it is hard to start the day with another feeding at say, 7 or 7:30. but a later start makes it hard to fit in 6 feedings. i tried dropping a feeding, but i don't think he is ready for that yet. we don't do a dream feed b/c i can't stay up that late, and when we have done it, it hasn't worked. so i still cluster feed him at 5:30 AND 7:30. so he generally takes 3 naps, but no cat nap. he is up for about 1.5 hours during the day and 2 hours between 5:30 and his last feeding. i am wondering if i stopped cluster feeding and added a cat nap instead if he would sleep more soundly.
well, that was all very windy and probably confusing. but if anyone understood it, do you have any thoughts?

[teresamac]

Maria, you sound like me...if i get it figured out, I'll let you know   I sometimes feel like I am studying so hard for a test I am never going to take...however the reward of being a mother and the cute little smiles make it all worth it!!  At times when I have found myself in that situation for morning feed...I do half at the 5:30 and then the rest at 7 or so and then I can start the counting from the 7 time...It has worked for us on those kind of days!!  My son is bottle fed so it works, but if you are breastfeeding...i don't know if that would work!!  Just a thought!

[Katet]

teresamac, sorry you are having a bad with the 2 losses to the family.

I just scanned through everyones posts re night waking & to feed or not to feed & the morning & not being interested in 7ish feed after a 5ish feed (I'm there my self)
My thoughts based on having been there with Aiden. I feed if Liam wakesup unless I get say 3 nights at the same time (ie withing 15mins) & it is less than 3-4hours since he last fed. At the moment he is alternating between a 3/4am wakeup & a 1/2 & 5/6 (no dream feed)...funnily enough whether he feeds once or twice in the night he doesn't seem all that interested in a 7ish feed, so it is getting closer to an 8am feed.

Here are some of my experiences from Aiden & now Liam (this is for a bf baby & both boys were/are above the 97% - we are talking average 5month old in size at 2.5 months)... With Aiden he would feed if it was offered & became a great snacker, But Liam won't take the breast unless he is hungry, so I have kind of worked out that cluster feeding him actually results in lesser feeds at that time & more likely to get 2 night feeds. If I give him a routine with a 4 hour stretch from about 11 to 3 & then feed either side of his bath (6.30 & 7pm) I get better feeds out of him... I think he is now on a 3.5/4/3.5 Easy most of the time & 1-2 wakeups at night.
The other thing is while your lo may not be hungry they may be thirsty...if the weather his hot or like here in Sydney winter- warm days & cold nights, so we have a heater on, they can easily get a bit thirsty without real hunger (6-8 hours is a long time in a baby) & so may wake up for a little drink... I know some nights I had the heating too warm in Liam's room & he woke up quite early... had a few gulps & back off to sleep... I have learnt to humidify the room with a damp towel & that helps... but it is still hards as we have some nights it gets down to 0C & others it is about 12C & the days are around 19-23C so sometimes it doesn't really get cold until about 2am at night!
I don't think I have given much help for anyone, but just wanted to say there are lots of things & also "sleeping through" for a baby under 3-4 months is only considered to be 5-6 hours & evenif you get the night wakings sorted out now... they will happen again with rolling, crawling, teeth illness etc, unless you are one of the really lucky people out there whose lo's seem to be uneffected by such things... but to me they always seem to be people saying "my mother said I slept through from 6 weeks"!!! I find expecting my boys to wake up at night is much easier on me emotionally than hoping tonight will be the night they sleep through & sure enough the nights they wake up lots are the ones I said I hope they sleep well tonight!!!
Also varied sleep from 6 weeks to about 5 months seems to be very normal & cat naps common. The other thing it is around this time that lo's should learn to fall asleep independently (big time range) & where things like paci addictions can become an issue... I use a paci to resettle Liam & I am now noticing that he needs to be resettled almost every nap, even though he falls asleep independantly most naps (I do out wind down, put in in his bed & leave him "chatting away" sometimes I have to go back & give a few pats or re-burp him, but he still only sleeps 45mins in the day, without resettling,yet can go 6-9 hours at night.

I think I mentioned before I had PPD with Aiden, well because of that I get extra appointments with our Early childhood centres here (free government service) with specialist early childhood nurses in the hope it can prevent a repeat occurance or if it does occur give me extra support ( I can go monthly rather than every 3-4 months) & I get a discount rate on a 1/2 day home visit from one of their consultants to help with any issues, which I think I am going to take up (it will cost me heaps less than I spent on my PPD meds last time)... so If I get a chance I will try to ask some of the questions floating around this thread

[teresamac]

Thank you everyone for your condolences...our family is hanging in there.  It has been hardest on my dad since it was his father and brother....with time all things heal.

On a good note, Ethan slept till 4 that is the first time in a long time that he didn't just wake to wake   I still put in his paci and patted to make sure it was really hunger and sure enough he was spitting that right out so he ate...he slept till almost 7.  He wasn't that hungry, but he still ate 3 out of 5 oz.  So we will just have to see how this day goes and the night!!

I know earlier we were talking about bathtime and I tried the bath in the morning...Ethan loves the bath, but cries getting out....this time no tears...maybe the morning is better for us

Thanks for listening,  Teresa

[mommytsa]

Hello everyone,

I'm new to EASY and BW, but have read all the posts, so am caught up.    

My LO, Aaron, will be 3 months next week, and we are trying to start him on EASY.  I have two main concerns.  First is that he hadn't been napping more than a total of maybe an hour a day, and that only when I held him after nursing. 
The second is that he nurses to sleep.  He's been doing a lot better with the amount of napping (nights are getting better, though they were never that bad....he slept through the night at 2 months, but has been very inconsistent about it).  We started EASY yesterday, and he had 2 good hour and a half long naps.  Today he's working on his second long nap (1 hour and counting).

Right now the real problem is that it takes soooo long to settle him for sleep that he doesn't really have much of a schedule, and when I do finally get him to go to sleep, it's because I gave up and nursed him.  For example, this morning he got up at 7 and ate.  He started getting tired at 8:15, so I took him in his room, swaddled him, turned on his music, gave him a paci (all of which we had been doing), then sat and cuddled with him to calm him down.  He cried, then settled enough to let me put him in his bed.  Then he startled, and no amount of pat/ssh or PU/PD would calm him.  After about a half hour, I was in tears, so I walked away.  My DH went in and reswaddled, picked up and rocked him to sleep.  That whole scenario took 1.25 hours!!!!  So we just let him sleep, figuring he'd eat when he woke up but I wasn't going to wake him after 15 minutes.  Then he slept for 1.5 hours.  When he got up, he ate, then we tried activity time.  He didn't want anything to do with it, but was acting like he was still hungry (probably was since he essentially skipped a feed with the crying and the sleeping).  So I nursed him until I starting getting the long stare (basically skipping the A), then tried to put him down, but he started screaming again, especially when I gave him the paci.  So I gave up and nursed him to sleep.

I'm feeling very overwhlemed with this, and even though I'm already starting to see results from putting him on a schedule, trying to get him to sleep is so hard, and I feel like I'm failing when I have to put him to the breast to get him to go to sleep.  Can anybody offer any suggestions or even just commisserate so I won't feel so alone?

[marlowho]

Theresa- I can commiserate!  I think nursing to sleep is an issue for me b/c of supply issues- could that be lurking in your mind as well?  From the picture, your guy looks like a good size (but it's hard to tell from pictures!)  Noel is still only 10 lbs- and though her ped. isn't worried about it, I secretly wish I could have one of those nice chubby babies so that I knew she was getting enough.  Anybody else felt this way?   (And part of my fears are b/c Madeline was a tiny baby- only in the .5 percentile until we starting supplementing around 4 mos.)  Anyway... all of this to say I do understand.  I feel like a huge "failure" when I nurse to sleep.  But there are times when, as you described, you've been trying to get them to sleep for so long- you've changed their diaper, you've patted/shushed till you're crazy... I remember reading in Tracy's book about just getting them to sleep this time and starting over the next time or even the next day.  (And as you mentioned, sometimes the time it takes to train them to sleep takes away from any sleep happening at all!)
For the most part, we had had a great schedule until about Thurs. of this last week.  We had a few bumps here or there, but nothing that lasted this long.  Only thing I can see is I bought new pacis (though she never has been a huge fan- I've always had to "hold" them in until she finally gives in and takes it.)- But maybe it's these new pacis that are keeping her from being able to go to sleep independently.  Somethings up and I've got to fix it soon or we'll be starting all over, I'm afraid! Augh! 
(I must say, though, she's been sleeping well at night- goes down promptly around 8 and sleeps until around 4:45 -hunger I think waking her- then wakes for the next day at 8.)
Wish I had more help for the questions!  But I totally understand the frustrations I've read... Hang in there, mommies!

[mommytsa]

Marlo-  thanks for the empathy.  I really needed it!  For me, supply isn't really the issue with nursing to sleep.  (I pumped for his first month, since he had latch on problems....I was getting 5-8 oz EACH SIDE in 15 min, so I know I have plenty, though that doesn't stop me from worrying about whether or not he got enough).  Because I produce so much, it's hard to know if he's really eaten his fill in 10 minutes, or has just snacked, so when he'd cry I'd try to feed him again, thinking he mustn't have gotten enough in the ten minutes he ate an hour ago.  Mostly, the nurse to sleep thing is a habit we've developed from accidental parenting and me misintrepreting his sleep cries as hunger cries.  And I was so smug when I was pregnant!  Thinking, "how hard can this really be?  I've been around babies all my life."  I promised myself I wouldn't be one of those people who obsess about how much thier babies eat, but I am obsessing.  I'm so tempted to go out and buy one of those infant scales so I can weigh him before and after each feed so I KNOW how much he's getting, but then I think I'd just obsess more.  I WISH I had found this book when I was still pregnant, or at least before I'd taught him so many bad habits!  I'm buying one for my sister-in-law who's due in November.  Hopefully she won't have the issues I've been having because of it.

For the rest of today, I think I'm just going to try to follow his cues and hopefully he won't want to stay awake until 11 pm or anything.  Or cry for  an hour instead of going to sleep. 

Also, I've noticed that a lot of you guys are switching from the 3 hour to 4 hour EASY.  Could that be part of my problem?  Should I try starting the 4 hour instead of the 3 hour since he'll be 3 months next week?  I'm watching his cues and it seems like he's getting tired at the right time for the 3 hour, but it's hard to know since he's never been on any type of schedule at all before. 

I hope this gets easier!