any april/may 05 moms want to chat?

[Katet]

Theresa, I read your posts & it takes me back 2 years to my first... also a spirited /textbook baby, although a fair bit of grumpy in there too & I had the latch issues & pumped plenty like you & well just about everything sounds like my life with Aiden (fortunately Liam my baby is mostly Angel & a breath of fresh air for me) even down to the "how hard can this be part"
Ok here are some things I learnt about a Spirited textbooker... they love to feed to sleep ( once they work out how to suck they love it) & are very hard to settle & so need a great wind down routine... calm consistencey is a big thing, being spirited they love stimulation BUT it is also a curse as it can very easily overstimulate them very quickly!
With naps I used to make sure I changed Aidens nappy well before nap time, once he showed tired signs it was too much to do that then. I found you almost have to start the wind down before the first tired sign... so it is more a case of clock watching. Also hands off wind down seemed to work well for us... I would cuddle for a few minutes & then sit beside the cot & read out loud to Aiden for 10-15 mins (I used to read adult stuff with a soft voice... now I read to Liam, with Aiden on my lap), patting him if he was distressed...although I didn't do this until about 4 months as I was still feeding to sleep at 3 months.
The other thing, does he use a paci, I used that to help wean off the feeding to sleep.
A few questions & I might be able to give a bit of extra help based on my experiences...
Is he a big boy for his age, does he fall asleep in the car & /or pram... is his room dark or light in the day time?
Hang in there, Spirited children are great, but they are hard work.

[mommytsa]

KateT, 

In answer to your questions:  he's fairly big, very tall (90%), but not overly heavy (75%).  He will occasionally fall asleep in the car or stroller, but not usually.  More often, he'll fall asleep in the front pack.  He uses a paci, and has since day one to give him something to suckle since he wants to suck all the time, but I drown him if he's on the breast that often.  For the past two days when I try to give it to him instead of the breast he screams like I'm hurting him.  I think he's figuring out that I'm giving it to him instead of the breast, and he doesn't like that idea so much.  His room gets fairly dark in the day (darkest room of the house).

Right now by DH is trying to put him down for his "catnap".  He screamed all through his 3rd nap, then ate and seemed tired 1/2 hour later, so we're trying to put him down now.  After 40 minutes of crying, he's just now settled down.  I don't know whether to try and wake him to go through all the night time bath and bed time routines or whether to just let him go to sleep now (it's only an hour before his "usual" bedtime).  I just don't think either my husband or I have the stamina to go through the 40 minutes of screaming for the third time today.

Tomorrow I'm definitely going to try the early long wind down and see if maybe that helps some, especially since I hadn't been doing much of a wind down at all.  I didn't really even know what kind of wind down to do, so I just figured wind down and naptime routine were the same thing.  Obviously, that isn't the case, and it isn't working.  Any other advice you could give would be so appreciated!  I just hope tomorrow it gets better, because I haven't cried this much since the first time I had to give him a bottle because he wouldn't latch on.  It's an utterly frustrated and "I've failed" feeling.

My new mantra: "It has to get better because it sure can't get much worse."

[Katet]

Theresa, your story brings back so many memories for me... even down to the not sleeping in the car or pram much & around 3 months old often rejecting the paci.
It does get better & finding the stamina to cope until it does is the hard part... but it does have its ups & downs even after things improve.
If he isn't crying when he is in the pram I used to give one nap in the pram... even if he didn't sleep it was down time & when I was having counselling for PPD, the mothercraft nurses there said down time if they are awake & "resting" was ok & they saw no reason why a catnap couldn't be a walk in the pram with a 10 min "nap" if it actually got them through to the next feed.
It is pretty hard when you start to feel like a "failure" BUT trust me you aren't & then you see all these people with babies that seem to be doing it so easily it is sooo frustrating. Having an Angel baby second time around proved to me it wasn't so much me but the nature of my first ds... so don't beat yourself up... some babies are just hard work!!!
All I can say is it can take days or even weeks for things to get much better, but they slowly do & as long as you remain consistant in how you do things they do improve... I just know how frustrating it can be when it just never seems to "work"
Have to go... but will post more later

[teresamac]

Theresa,  my husband and I worked very hard on the whole sleep thing so I have tons of sympathy for you.  It takes a lot of work and our backs would be hurting from all the bending over the crib, but the perseverance paid off!!  Here's what we would do on the days we were home together...For our LO the shorter the wind down the better....we swaddled and like someone else said we don't change his diaper...we rocked for a few minutes and then we put him in is crib...pat and sh for 20 minutes and then we would trade off and my husband would pat and sh for 20 minutes...after 40 minutes if he wasn't asleep...tracy says to take them out of the crib so we would...she also says since you are sleep training you shouldn't let them sleep longer than the normal cycle so even if they sleep 10 minutes she says to get them up, but then she says they should basically eat, change diaper and then they will be really ready for a nap.  I know it is so hard when they are crying their head off...like you said all you want to do is cry and we had several days like that...both of us crying.  You are a great caring mommy be confident in that...keep seeking answers and remember there will be a light at the end of the tunnel.  I am glad you found this board because it has really been helpful to me and I am sure it will be for you too!!

Good luck,  Teresa

[mommytsa]

Well, here's a little bit of good news.  He woke up at 4:15 for his night feed, then decided it was time to wake up.  We put him in his crib.  He seemed happy, just not tired so he was up and talking (maybe slept occasionally, I was just sort of listening to the monitor while I lightly slept).   He started to get fussy around 6:20, so I got him up and gave him a bath, both because we missed it last night and it gerenally calms him down and relaxes him.  Then he ate at 6:50 and after 10 minutes of just sitting and staring, I went and changed him, swaddled him and snuggled for a minute and put him down.  He DIDN'T CRY!!!       I stood with him and sort of whispered and shhed (a tiny bit of pat when he spazzed out, but mostly just talking).  I waited the full 20 minutes, until he totally spit out the paci then eventually found his fingers when he wanted them (and was calm and sleepy enough to keep them near his mouth).

My question is at what time do I count this nap as starting?  At 7:10 when I first set him in the crib, or at 7:30 when I left?  And is that time in between wind down or was wind down the ten minutes of sitting and staring?  I think I'm starting to get the hang of this, but sometimes I still get very confused.

Thank you all so much for your support!  I don't know if I'd still even be trying this if I didn't have someone who'd done it to vent my frustrations to, just because the first few days are so hard.

[cambeladamom]

theresa-
and i thought having a touchy baby was hard! you have recieved lots of advice and encouragaement, but i thought i would add to it:)
this is my first baby, and i can't tell you how many times i have felt like a total failure! and it is so hard when you look at other babies who seem so calm and happy. it is often hard to remember that it is your lo's temperament, and not you! using EASY will help you so much. i bought the book after a terrible afternoon of screaming (cambel was exhausted, but i didn't know it) and it has made such a difference. we still have tough days, and i often feel like i am not doing it right, but at least it is a great guide. i think that being a mother is wonderful, but it is also the hardest thing i have ever done. i am like you-i thought i had it all figured out before i had cambel. and he has been proving me wrong ever since.
so hang in there. this is a great place to vent and get advice. i have thanked God for this website:) it has kept me from losing my mind on numerous occassions.
keep us posted.

[mommytsa]

Maria-

Thanks so much!  It's funny how we think we know so much before we're in the actual situation and we realize we don't really know anything.   The worst part though, is that everyone else thought "oh, he's such a good baby" about Aaron when really, before we started BW the only reason he was good was because I never let him cry, just shoved a boob in his mouth and he either ate or fell asleep, and I was just happy he wasn't crying anymore.  So just because you see someone else with a "good baby" it doesn't necessarily mean that they've figured out anything more than you have, except how to make the baby not cry, and even then it's probably only on good days.   I think until we find something like BW, we're all just in survival mode, and we know it, but we just don't know what else to do.  It's hard to know deep down that even though everything seems ok on the surface, you're really not doing what's best for your child.  For me, I had to face up to that fact because I go back to work in 2 1/2 weeks, and my DH will be home with Aaron all day, and he can't just whip out  a boob to make the baby happy.  Even though transitioning to EASY has been rough, I know it will make DH's life sooo much better, since Aaron won't be so very dependent on me for falling asleep and being happy in general.

VERY GOOD NEWS:  I think Aaron is finally starting to get the idea of EASY though!!  I just put him down for the third time today, with NO CRYING!!!              After yesterday, I figured that was going to be a long way off.  Granted, he still wakes up at the 45 minute mark and it takes a while to settle him then (20-30 min), but I honestly didn't think this was going to work out at all, and by next week I'd be insane from all the crying and I'd just be giving him the boob again to get him to sleep.  So to all of you that have offered advice and listened to me vent, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!

[jjstar]

Ladies...the last couple of posts have been very informative. Thanks!

I have a question for you all...tonight Jameson went to bed a bit late (he hasn't been feeling well so I let him sleep in this morning to 8 instead of 7:30 so everything is off a bit). Here is my main question if he finally fully fell asleep at 9:00 pm do I still do the DF at 10:30? I feel like that is going to be too early. Thoughts?

[Taylor's Mommy]

Wow a whole page of posts to read since I haven't been on in a few days. 
JJSTAR-ds went to sleep at 9 pm, but when was his last feed?  Was it the same as usual?  If so, I would still df at 10:30.  Some nights we wouldn't be able to get Taylor to sleep till 10 or 10:15 and it would kill us to risk waking her for the 10:30 df, but we did to stay consistent and it paid off.
Mommytsa-welcome to the boards and this thread.  BW and this forum has been a huge help to me and we are living proof that this stuff does work and the hard work does pay off in the end!  Have you read the sleep interview yet?  If not give it a read because it has tons of great info.  Also there are posts from Theo's mom on pat/shush and pu/pd in the general sleep issues forum that are great.  I can totally relate to what you said about knowing deep down what you were doing wasn't right...I read BW when I was pregnant and came home from the hospital with all these grand ideas about teaching dd independent sleep.  Well the spirited little monkey would have none of it!  I remember when she was 7 weeks old pacing the floors to get her to sleep and then lying her down and sobbing to dh "I know this isn't right...I feel horrible doing this!"  Well even after rocking/walking her to sleep for 2.5months and we were still able to teach her indepent sleep.  Now at 3.5 months she goes to sleep completely on her own and it is a great feeling, BUT it took lots of hard work and consistency.  It sounds like oyu want to do it and are commited, so good luck and good for you!

Regarding your question about when the nap started.  I hope I don't confuse you, but here goes.  I always counted it as when she started to enter the state of sleep where she was closing her eyes off and on...when you say you left after 20 minutes (at 7:30), was he deep asleep?  And then did he wake up apx. 25minutes after that (you said he does 45 min. naps)?  If yes to both of these questions, then he started to fall asleep and the nap started at 7:10 most likely because babies take apx. 20 minutes to fall into deep sleep.  I think I am being totally confusing, but that is why I suggest reading the sleep interview! :roll:   SOrry, I don't think I was much help.

Regarding 4 hour EASY, we have been doing it for 4 days now and it is going good.  We were following the plan in Tracy's new book and were about to start day 12 where the feeds get spaced out 3.75 hours apart, and she just kind of naturally did it    although now she is waking at 6 am instead of 7 am, but I'm hoping when she can start to take more at each feed she will last a little longer.  I put her back to sleep for about 30 minutes and then wake her at 7 just to stay consistent, but then of course she is not hungry at 7, so it is still taking a little work.

It sounds like we are all having the problem of random night wakings :evil:   I wish I knew what to do.  oh well, I guess things could be so much worse right?

Take care everyone!
Andrea

[jjstar]

Taylor's Mommy...the last feed was at 8 which is about normal. He is usually sound asleep btw 8 & 8:30. I did do the DF just a bit later than normal. I went in about 10:50 instead of 10:30. Gave me some extra time to get things done before I went to bed right after the feed. He slept through till 4:30 so I guess it worked. Tonight I'm going to really try not to feed him when he wakes. I feel like I get hunger cues but I don't really try to look for too long. I figure it is easier to just feed but I don't want to keep thinking that way. We keep having visitors so I've been trying to keep him quiet. I feel like our parents (most of the visitors) will think I'm a bad mom if they hear him crying for too long at night.

Well Jameson just passed the 13 week mark/3 month. How will I know for sure when to switch to 4 hour EASY? Am I correct to think that it is when the naps start getting too short. He is still take 3 almost 2 hour naps a day plus the catnap. We just discovered the jumpster though so I'm hoping that the activity time will be able to be stretched out since he has some new toys!

[krice]

I can't believe how much there was to read!

Theresa (and Aaron) welcome aboard.  I see that our LO's are only a week apart.  I can relate to what you said about not wanting to obsess about our LO's food intake.  I have really been struggling with this.  My LO has reflux and if he's not taking a 'normal' amount I start to wonder if he's in pain, if his med's are off, why his food intake dropped off one day etc. etc.  Just these past 3 days this has really been an issue for me.  My DS has been screaming when he begins to suckle and doesn't want the bottle anywhere near his mouth.  Although once he starts, he can get it down. We are on a 4hr EASY so I know that he must need food . . . but what's going on??? . . . (We've got a doctor's appointment scheduled for next Monday but I'm not sure I can wait that long).

JJstar - How do you know for sure to switch from a 3hr to 4 hr EASY?  I guess it's trial and error and once they are on 4 hours and making it, then you'll know.  For us, we tried extending the 3hr routine by 15, 30, or 45 minutes.  I wan't rigid at all - if DS made it, great!  If not, I'd feed him at 3 hrs.  Some days he would extend all of his feeds, and on others he'd only extend 1 or 2.  Once DS was able to go 4hrs between feeds a little more regularly I decided to make the switch.  We did this at 12 weeks. 

Once we changed the routine DS did very well (for the eating part).  He had no problem going 4 hrs between feeds.  What we struggled with was the Activity time.  If a feed takes 30 minutes, and we aim for 2 hrs sleep, 15 minutes for wind down and diaper change, that means there is about 1 hr and 15 minutes for Activity time.  He's getting better, but it's hard trying to extend his A time and still get him down in his window . . . and of course, what if he doesn't go 2 hrs???

We still have one nap/feed that is off the 4 hr mark.  We feed at 6am, 10am, 2pm, between 5-6pm, and a DF at 10:30pm.  He usually has two 2 hour naps and one 45 minute nap.  I think we may need to use the "wake-to-sleep" method again as DS is taking to wake at 5am (he likes to play in his crib at this time).  The problem is that if he is awake an hour before we feed him his activity time is shot!  Then our day sometimes starts out at 6am with ESAS.  I want to break this because I don't want DS used to taking 45 min naps.

Is anyone doing pu/pd with their LO's?  This has caused some difficulties for my DH (he's a bit of a softy).  My question is, when you do pu/pd do you use a paci??  What about swaddling?  When my LO is frantic his arms/fingers/thumb are no where near his mouth.  Suggestions???

It's amazing to think that we have come along this far . . . 3 months.  When I think back to those first few weeks I can't believe I survived. 

I could go on and on right now but this has gotten rather long, so I'll cut it off here.

[mommytsa]

Thank you all for all the advice and help!  It's so nice to be able to talk to other moms doing BW and pick your brains! 

Andrea-Believe it or not, I think I understood you about the naptime thing, and you guessed exactly right with the times, etc (I leave him when he's in a deep sleep, otherwise he just spazzes out and wakes himself up again and we have to start over).  I've been trying to read the sleep interview, but I feel like there's so much great info there that I can't just read it through, I have to take it in small bits.

Krice-While I can't help with the 4 hour EASY, I have been doing some pu/pd when Aaron is really upset.  He's still swaddled, and usually I have to sort of tighten or rewrap the swaddle when I pick him up.  I also shove the paci in and hold it there until he starts to calm down, because just like yours, his hands are nowhere near his mouth and he's too upset to even think about getting them there.  What that usually means is that I can't hold him in the vertical position that Tracy recommends, I just cradle hold.  Usually by the time I've resorted to pu/pd, LO is so worked up it can take 10-15 min to calm him down, so I just actually sit in his room and sort of "restart" the naptime routine.  I know what you mean about how upsetting it can be to DH.  Two days ago, mine said to me (through clenched teeth and over the screaming),  "I don't really see what the difference is between this and cry it out except that for this we have to be here holding him the whole time."   :cry:  He's come around though, now that we're seeing results.   

It is amazing how fast the time goes.  Now I know why older women will come up to you and say "Enjoy every minute.  Just yesterday mine were that little and now they're all grown up."

[jjstar]

Well today we've discovered a new 'issue'. LO is rolling over and it wakes him up. He has done it a few times in the night but I've discovered that it is when he is hungry and waking anyway. Well today it has interupted two naps and I can't seem to get him back to sleep. There is a mobile on his crib which is what he is always looking at when I go in after he is all wide awake. Should I remove the mobile to teach him to SLEEP in the crib or will this cause more problems later when I do want him to be able to entertain himself a bit in the crib? I'm so confused but I'm afraid he is going to be missing so much sleep from this. THoughts?

*By the way he is a stomach sleeper so when he rolls over he is on his back looking all around.

[Katet]

jjstar... from what I have discovered the rolling over thing is developmental ( he may be an early crawler too), he is possibly thinking about rolling & his sleep & so wakes up to "practice"... one of those many things that "ruin" the hard worked for sleeping... just keep everything consistent & it should go back to what it was once the novelty wears off. Does he wake up early & cry or is he making happy noises? If it is happy noises just leave him be... one of the things I still struggle with (mostly as it is at night with my 2yo & I want to sleep) is that "being awake & happy while supposed to be a sleep" But I know that the sleep centre that gave me advice when Aiden was little said, if they are happy leave them be... it is rest they need & that may not always be sleep... if you run into try & get them back to sleep when they wake up happy you are effectively saying it is NOT ok to be lying in your cot awake & enjoying yourself, you sleep here & that is all, so they can stop being happy & awake there
Re the mobile, if he is happy & it keeps him occupied don't worry, but if he is upset & cries then maybe it is too much stimulation so I would remove it.
HTH

[jjstar]

Thanks Kate. He is happy when he wakes for awhile. The other night I heard him in the crib from 2 until almost 2:30 just 'talking' to himself or the mobile. Then at 2:30 he started crying. So I suppose I just have to almost ignore the rolling and continue as 'normal'. I am thinking this might be one sign that we need to start moving to 4 hour EASY so he is more tired for his naps.

We discovered the jumpster this weekend and he LOVES it. He is 'walking' while he is in it.