any april/may 05 moms want to chat?

[Jamom]

Jill-- actually been wondering the same thing on the mantra (sorry I misunderstood you the first time around!! :oops: )  I usually hold him until he is calm before putting down (so, no, I don't PD on mantra cry)but I, too, was wondering how calm is calm for the PD part?  I was going to post it in the PU/PD forum but just haven't gotten to it yet.  On that same topic, I am wondering if you put down when your lo is showing signs of settling? For example, Jake does this little grunt when he is settling (sounds like Tim the Tool Man if you ever watched the show "Tool Time").  I don't know if I should put him down when he's doing that because he's not totally calm but is in the process of calming himself and many times he'll grunt and start to settle but then get upset again very quickly.  Anyone have any ideas about that??

[Katet]

Quick post re the MANTRA Cry/ when to put down... my swing on it is you PD when you feel it is the right time for your baby...I sort of know that when Liam is calm & then starts wriggling again it is the time to put him down, then if he is down & does his mantra cry, I will just pat & shsh him as he settles into a comfortable position & finds his hands to suck.
I think like most of baby stuff the key of EASY is to understand the right cues your lo's give you & working with what they are showing you... they have a unique way of telling things... like now Liam is telling me "mummy nap time" as he is getting a "rise" in his chat.

Carrie, I would just read the last 3-4 pages, most of the stuff before that is when our lo's were younger & they develop so much.

When I get back to this, later I'm going to post some questions to give us all a summary, I've kind of lost track of where people are at.

[Taylor's Mommy]

oh my gosh you miss a couple of days and there are 3 new pages of posts! 

I hope today of PU/PD went well for everyone.  I tell you it saved our lives when we did it with Taylor about 5 weeks ago.  It took 3 and 1/2 days before we saw major progress and she started putting herself to sleep on her own.  Kathy, don't be surprised if Matthew starts going off to sleep on his own from now on.  The first night it happened with Taylor DH and I were amazed and thought it was a fluke, but ever since that night she has continued to do it for naps and bed.  There are of course the occasional days when she needs me to reassure her and pat her, etc., but all in all I would say she does it on her own.
I never picked up on a Mantra Cry...just let her work it out.  I agree with Kate that I think like everything you have to modify PU/PD for your baby.  There were times when Taylor was screaming but I didn't PU because I could just tell it would work her up even more.  And when I would PU and as soon as she started squirming/nuzzling her face in chest, etc., I put her down right away because that is their way of trying to settle themselves.
Maria, I am with you that our LO's contiune to amaze us with the sleepign thing.  Like so many of you after a great few weeks, the last week she has started night wakings and doing a 45 minute nap every other day or so.  Last night she woke up at 5 but didn't need us to get her back to sleep, which is great, but we of course couldn't go back to sleep! :evil:

She has also started to wake up before her 11pm DF which she hasn't done in weeks!!!  It has happened about 4 out of the last 7 nights.  She wakes about 10:20 and will not go back down until we feed her.  Any thoughts on why they are doing this?

We definitely need to do something about this thread, as it is way too long don't you all think?
Kate-I agree that we should do a recap of some sort.

Take care everyone and good luck out there!

Jamom-BTW, I start back on Monday :cry:   I can't believe no more Target trips in the afternoon with Taylor and no more getting to see her smiley face when she wakes up from naps!

[Taylor's Mommy]

one more thing about the last cat nap of the day...I have read in many posts, including one from Matthew's Mommy (the awesome moderator of the nap forum), that the last cat nap is a freebie.  Meaning they can sleep anywhere-in your arms, in the swing, in the car doing errands (my personal favorite).
So if you are finding it all too stressful to get them down in their crib for that last cat nap, do whatever you know will help.

[Taylor's Mommy]

okay I'm on a roll tonight!  I just thought of a few Q's :?:  :?:  that I would love some/all of you to answer:
1. when do you think you will start solids? 
2. does anyone know when they drop the cat nap?
3.what happens when they drop the cat nap, meaning they will be up for 4-5 hours?  Do you spread the time between the other 2 naps?  how does that work for feeds then?
4. does anyone know if the 45 minute nap thing can come and go?
5. with other babies I know and I have heard that at a certain point/age, many babies will only need one long nap (be it the morning or afternoon), and then one other short nap.  does anyone know what age taht becomes so?

thanks!!!  you all are the best and I love having you all as a resource to help with this scary time!

[Katet]

Ok quick responses...

Solids at 6mo... not before as I don't want to risk the long term possible consequences & I managed to last to 6mo with Aiden & he was also a big baby & even if it means a night feed again I want what's best for Liam

Drop the cat nap - well we don't have one, we now have 2 catnaps in the am most days as Liam is often mid sleep when we need to go to swimming, a play date or the like, then we have a longish mid day one & a 1.25 hour one in the pm !!

If you drop the catnap, the other ones would spread out... if you do 4hour Easy, you either have 3 longer ones or 2 + a cat nap, it sort of works around them extending their awake time to 2+ hours long

45mins naps come & go... by the time they move around ie crawl they go for most people (tireder babies) & come back around the transition to 1 nap/day when they aren't quiet tired enough for a long one, but can't last the distance to have one nap type of thing

The 2 naps (1 longer, 1 shorter or 2 roughly same) happens usually after solids are established, sometime around 6-9mo... my niece was 6mo, Aiden was 9mo... he only dropped his 2nd nap at 21mo, which is very late, most babies its around 15mo
The textbook type transition would say-  3naps at 4mo, 2 at 6mo, 1 at 12mo... but that can vary by a few months.

Off to the park now Liam is due for a nap... on our last nap of the day- which has always been my freebie... he gets the paci or we go in the pram, mid you his morning naps can be a bit like that too... but the mid day one is pretty much sacred in this house. Both boys napping together is my sanity!!!

[Jamom]

Can't answer all the questions now but just wondering, Kate, why is it you are worried about the solids?? I asked my doc at the 4 mo. appointment when we should start introducing and he said to start some rice cereal, making it very thin, more so Jake could start to learn how to push food to the back of his mouth than Jake really needing the solids.  Is there a health concern in doing this???  I have to say after a week or so, he has come to love his cereal and is doing well pushing it back and getting it down.  So far, I haven't seen any signs of stomach problems or constipation.  Although we are doing very little (about 1 tsp mixed with 4 tsp formula), so that could be why. The pamphlet the doc gave me told me to introduce solids very slowly and to start with rice cereal because it is the least likely for allergies.  Then, once they get the hang of eating it, you can try other varieties.  I was going to do rice cereal for about a month, making it a little thicker each week, and then add other foods.  Let me know....

Will post more later... need to get Jake ready for the day!

[jjstar]

This will be quick as we off for a day of shopping in Atlanta!! Jameson went down without a pat or anything last night for bed!! DH & I were so amazed we couldn't believe it. But then of course he woke up 20 minutes before the DF so it didn't make it a perfect night...if it isn't one thing it is another, right?!

Hope everyone has a great day!

[krice]

Day 5 PU/PD and Paci Weaning

This was almost the perfect day . . . (then DH came home :? )

NO PU/PD needed for all naps!  I just lay Matthew in his crib and said night-night and that was it.          It would take him anywhere from 5 to 20 minutes to fall alseep, but he managed very well.

That is until DH tried to put him down for the night.  I frimly believe DH has to get the hang of PU/PD as well, so I didn't want to interfere.  At one point I tried giving him some suggestions, but DH told me he didn't need me to criticize.  It was then that I stepped out of the room - I was pi$$ed.  I brought in a bottle around the 60 minute mark and DS was finally asleep over 100 minutes from his original start time. *ugh* painful!

Let me tell you, that sure killed our evening  :roll:  :roll:  :roll: At least DH came out and said "I feel so bad because I caused this".  Then we had a good conversation about what to do next time.

For those moms who are considering PU/PD, let me say it's been the best thing!  It sure was a stressful, draining process but the end is worth it!  I never thought we'd make it through but we did.

Questions . . .
1. when do you think you will start solids?
My LO was on rice cereal for almost 2 full months - acting as thickener for his reflux.  He started out really well.  Then just before we took him off, he refused his bottles and was extremely consitpated.  We went through this for about 3 weeks.  It was so hard on me.  Since stopping with the 'thickening' I've had my happy boy return.  I'm not too certain when I will try giving him cereal on a spoon.  I'm inclined to wait until the 6-month mark.  Not entirely sure though . . . .  Matthew has a spoon that he pretends to eat with, he sits well and holds his head up, shows and interested in what we eat, his tongue reflux is really disappearing, and he has doubled his weight.  I guess, I'll just wait a while and see how he is doing.

2. does anyone know when they drop the cat nap?
Can't help you much here.  Before PU/PD we never had a catnap, just 3 longer naps.  His schedule still needs some tweaking, but if my LO looks like he may need more sleep, I'll certainly try to get him down for another one.

3.what happens when they drop the cat nap, meaning they will be up for 4-5 hours? Do you spread the time between the other 2 naps? how does that work for feeds then?

4. does anyone know if the 45 minute nap thing can come and go?

5. with other babies I know and I have heard that at a certain point/age, many babies will only need one long nap (be it the morning or afternoon), and then one other short nap. does anyone know what age taht becomes so?

This is where we need the expertise of experienced moms with LO's who are a bit older.  Can't help you here - sorry.  We're just going with the flow right now.  I chuckle when I think my LO will be up for 4/5 hours - 1.75 hrs is hard enough to stay awake for.

[s_olano00]

Jill, Kathy – I soooo much envy you guys!!!! I can see you have come a long way!!! How did it happened? Usually, when I put Anna Krisztina down on her crib, I still need to do shh/pat. Is my intervention preventing her from falling asleep on her own? What do you do? Just just put your LO’s in the crib and walk away and if they fuss you go back and do PU/PD? I need your secret!!!

On my side, Anna Krisztina has improved a lot: for every nap she only needs about 3 PU/PD and then she’ll be down for the full 2 hours. Her meals have become more consistent (every 4 hours and between 4 and 7 oz, depending on the time of the day) and last night after her dream feed at 11 pm, she only woke up at 3am (exactly the 4 hour mark), so I am very happy and very proud of her. I cross my fingers that this pattern will continue.

Kathy, I feel so much about what happened with your DH… something in that line happened to me early this morning. Last night we agreed that he should get more involved with the baby (he wouldn’t even dream feed her) So he df’d her last night with me in the room as his security blanket) and we agreed  that he would do the PU/PD if necessary that night. Anna Krisztina woke up at 6am (1 hour before) and, as it was his 1st time, we went together to her room and I asked him to put his hand over mine so he would feel the strenght and the rithm of the shh/pat. When AK was already with her eyes closed, we switched and her started the sh/pat. She was still with her eyes closed. I left the room b/c I needed to wash a bottle for her and when I came back, DH was asleep and AK was wide awake. I woke him up and asked him what happened and he just told me „Look, she really doesn’t want to sleep”. I was so angry!! I  put her back to sleep in 10 mins and explained him the importance of teaching the baby the right time for her to wake up. I guess it will take some time for him to get the whole picture of this thing.

About the questions:

1. when do you think you will start solids?
I am not even thinking of starting solids right now. I am still trying to get her in a consistent pattern with the bottle, so I don’t even want to introduce her any other thing. Anyway, I think that here in HU the custom is to introduce solids at 6 months.

2. does anyone know when they drop the cat nap?
I think they have to keep the catnap and drop the other longer sleeps until you get to the point that they take a nap in the mid-morning and  a catnap in the afternoon…. Not 100% sure

3.what happens when they drop the cat nap, meaning they will be up for 4-5 hours? Do you spread the time between the other 2 naps? how does that work for feeds then?
No idea

4. does anyone know if the 45 minute nap thing can come and go?
I hope they would drop it, but Kate said they come and go

5. with other babies I know and I have heard that at a certain point/age, many babies will only need one long nap (be it the morning or afternoon), and then one other short nap. does anyone know what age that becomes so?
No idea

Well, I gotta go and grab some dinner.

Have a good day / night everyone!

[jjstar]

As far as how we've gotten LO to go down without a pat...consistency is what seems to work for our touchy baby! He went down like a dream again tonight but woke 90 minutes later crying like someone was hurting him. I was able to get him down in just 10 minutes of PU/PD. We'll see if he wakes again before the DF or not. I think he might have a cold or something because his cry sounds somewhat dry. I'm glad we go tomorrow for the well baby visit...might turn into a sick baby visit with the rate things are going.

1. when do you think you will start solids? I'm honestly afraid of this. I'm going to ask the Ped. tomorrow to see his thoughts. I personally would like to keep him on BF as long as possible. I know it works so why fix it?!
2. does anyone know when they drop the cat nap? I'm just following the cues so I'm guessing he'll tell us when he is ready.
3.what happens when they drop the cat nap, meaning they will be up for 4-5 hours? Do you spread the time between the other 2 naps? how does that work for feeds then? I know right now we're on a mixed up 3.5 hour EASY and after his 3rd nap I feed him and then he is up until he is ready for bed for the night. So I guess this will be somewhat the same without the 3rd 2 hr nap that he gets now.
4. does anyone know if the 45 minute nap thing can come and go? I just follow his cues and if he acts non-sleepy when he wakes after 45-50 minutes then we have some activity. If not I do PUPD and he goes back to sleep within 10 minutes for at least an hour.
5. with other babies I know and I have heard that at a certain point/age, many babies will only need one long nap (be it the morning or afternoon), and then one other short nap. does anyone know what age taht becomes so? If I remember correctly the book says by 18 mos but I'm sure it depends on the child. I have a friend that has a 4 year old that still takes 2 naps everyday.

well I'm off to have a snack and some tv before DF time.

[Katet]

Jamon....Ok my spin on the solids, not before 6mo.
* The World Health Organisation defenitely recommends solids not before 6mo firstly becuase it isn't needed by the baby nutritionaly.

* Food allergies & gastrointestional dissorders in the child/adult population are on the rise, later introduction, helps reduce the risk of these later in life...yes most babies take to solids like a duck to water & don't have problems now, but I'm relating my stand to the effects it may have on Liam when he is 5, or 25 or 45.

* while the link of increased food allergy in the babies of  the "next generation" of babies given solids early is not proven  ie I know I was given solids from 3mo & I had  food allergies & Aiden, who was held off, still has allergies to the things I do??? there is talk there is correlation.

 * OK it is only anecdotal, but  I do know in my parents time it was common to give them at 6wo & that generation has a huge incidence of Type II diabetes & gastrointesinal disorders. While our generation (20-40yo) have one of the highest rates of people getting crohns disease (autoimmune intestinal disease).... I know 4 people with it.

*Also in the rest of history (pre 20th C), most babies didn't get solids until nearly a year old! & it more "tribal" cultures, solids are introduced later not sooner

* Also with people giving lots of jar/tin food, you have less control over how food is made & I worry about the long term consequences of giving that sort of "processed" food, so the less time before they can eat family food the better

* My other personal reason for holding off... it is a pain in the neck giving solids, you feel like you are feeding them all the time & it doesn't really help sleeping for a few weeks & infact can sometimes cause more waking. Once you get past baby rice & on to veg, you end up feeling like there is mess everywhere & then when you go out you have to remember solids & well it is just a pain until they are about 12mo & you can pretty much just give one meal & milk as a drink, but before that it is a juggling game as far as I am concerned.

Now I fully admit, neither boy has seen a Ped, except on hospital discharge, it isn't common for well babies to see them in Australia, but I do take them to the equivalent of a "well baby clinic", but having almost married a  Dr & he shared a flat with a Ped, I know how they are actually not always up to date on some of the research even in their own field. Many medicos will give information that was current when they were trained, or from the last time, they happened to read up about "something" the medical world is changing so quickly it is hard for them to keep up & also having been in medical research (immunology & allergy) for many years, I know many Dr's (esp older ones) don't always want to change the ideas they've held true for their career.... It seems that many Ped's tend to suggest that babies need solids, when mothers complain that they aren't sleeping well (that & let your lo Cry it out) because in many cases it will work & if it doesn't well because people hold Drs in high regard, they think "oh I must be doing something wrong.

jj star when you see your ped & if he/she recommends starting, ask under what grounds that recommendation is made, as in the last 2-3 years WHO have definitely recommended against it & my thought is if you are happy with the BF, that is all your lo needs!

OK it is a long post & I don't think I actually said everything on how I formed my decision but I guess having worked in research & with Dr's I tend to trust the former more than the later & let you guys make your own decisions... If you're happy with solids early do it!

Oh & congratulations to those of you doing so well with the Paci weaning & PU/PD
I have to get back into a routine with Liam, he is so much the third wheel  sometimes & with the transitions to 4hour feeds, his naps & night sleeps aren't going as well as they did before.

[LS2mommy]

Hi I am new to this board and have a touchy/reflux baby. DS was born 4/5/05.  He was 6 weeks early(due 5/15/05).

Problem: 30 minute naps 4- 5 per day

I will try going in to resettle before he cries.  I did this tonight for bed and he went down after 5 PU/PD and awoke after 38minutes and just needing to give paci for about 5 minutes.

He is breast feed only (takes EBM at the sitters) and sleeps 8:30 to 7:00 sometimes up once for 3am feed.

What times may be good for naps right now they are all over the board.

[mommytsa]

Wow, lots going on today!

I have to say that for the last two nights, I've been able to put Aaron down and walk away.  :D:D:D:D:D:D  Just like that, no pat /shh, no pu/pd, nothing.  But naps have been difficult, especially the catnap.    For most of his day time naps, we're still having a few minutes of fussing and a little pu/pd, but the catnap is so hard on him that I sometimes still have to do "intentional accidental parenting" in order to get him to sleep, and then it's the only nap of the day that he'll sleep for longer than 45-50 minutes, so I have to really watch the clock to make sure that he doesn't just "sleep through" bath and bedtime.   

I think part of it may be that DH is the one doing the day naps, then I do the catnap and bedtime, so there's kind of a transition from his way to my way at the catnap, and it might be confusing on DS, even though we try to do things the same way.  I dunno.  Might just be that evenings are just his fussy time because he's not getting enough day sleep. 

I think we'll see about switching him all the way to the 4 hour EASY (we've been on 3.5) and see if that helps, even though lately he seems to be having a hard time staying up even 1.5 hours unless he's being held for the last 30 min, which DH won't do.   DH is now saying that he's just going to start expecting 45 min naps.  I think I'll slowing work on him to see if I can get him to try extending the A time and do the 4 hour schedule.  Boy, but sometimes it feels like I've got 2 kids, not one!

Andrea--I can't be of any help on your questions, since I haven't ever had a really good schedule for more than about two weeks before something screws it up, and I'm just happy when he takes any naps at all.  I can say that I'm going to try to hold off on solids until 6 months, mostly because it just seems to me that breastmilk is free, easy and convenient (yes, even with pumping because of work I still think it's convenient).  Why buy more stuff and spend more time than you have to if it's something that hasn't been shown to be really beneficial?  JMO.

Kathy, Congratulations!!!!  You're now doing better than I am, so keep it up, and now you can keep me posted!

Sylvia, your DH will come around when he figures out that BW is so good, and he might just need a little more "supervision" to make sure he's doing things "right" and to gain some confidence.  Mine now spends more time with my DS than I do  , but he still feels very overwhlemed, underprepared and insecure about everything, especially pu/pd because it is soooo hard for them to understand that by doing it you are teaching a valuable life skill and it is so worth the time, effort and emotional energy.   I suggested that DH actually read the book (novel concept, I know!) or log on here since I saw at least one other new dad posting recently, but he gave me that "are you kidding, woman?" look, so I didn't press it.
I'm hoping for both of us that things come around and our lo's will get the hang of it soon!

Hope you guys all are doing well and wish everyone a good night's sleep.

[Taylor's Mommy]

thanks ladies for trying to respond to my questions.  I know they are tough ones and we are all trying to still figure things out! :roll:
My ped said she thinks we should definitely try to hold off on solids as long as we can (until at least 6 months), and by the way Taylor is sleeping and seems to be content, I agree.  I'm lucky that my Ped knows about the BW and endorses Tracy's methods, so she is not "old school" by any means.  I was asking you all just out of curiosity mostly...

One thing Taylor has been doing though lately is waking up before her DF and acting really hungry so we feed her early (tonight it was at 10:20 when it is normally at 11).  So it does lead me to believe that she is getting hungrier, but I think if I just work on her getting a nice good full feed before bed time she'll be good for a couple more months.

Congratulations Kathy on your success with dd.  It is a wonderful feeling when you can put them in the crib and walk away, isn't it?  Many days I am still totally amazed with Taylor and how far she has come.  It makes me not mind at all teh few times she does need me to help her get to sleep! (even in the middle of the night sometimes). 

Theresa-I know the frustrations you are feeling with DH, but it seems that he is at least trying.  They can be a pain though!  It's so funny to hear my DH tell other people about how good Taylor is now with her routine and sleeping, etc.  He always says "we" worked so hard and "we" trained her, etc.  I laugh because he did help out a lot (much more than a lot of dads I know), but along the way he questioned me a bazillion times!  Gotta love them though :wink:   BTW, remember that the cat nap is the hardest nap of the day to get them down for, so don't beat yourself up!  I honestly have to keep Taylor up for about 2.5 hours before she'll take her cat nap.  Very weird!

Anyhow, have a great night everyone!