Author Topic: Please help - at the end of our ropes, ready to Ferberize!  (Read 4532 times)

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all74

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Please help - at the end of our ropes, ready to Ferberize!
« on: July 31, 2005, 23:59:09 pm »
Hi there

my wife and I are really at the end of our tethers....

Our 15 wk old boy FIGHTS sleep every time. Even naps. Last night, he screamed for 45 minutes straight. I didn't do PU/PD because he was arching his back and clawing the whole time... did do shush-pat, but that really didn't help much. It is like this with EVERY sleep period. We try and catch him at his early sleep signs (the stare, followed by yawning and rubbing his eyes) but it doesn't seem to make any difference. He even fights against a pacifier (spits it right out, screams even louder).

At this point, I'm about ready to just lock him in the room and let him scream until he wears himself out... of course, I really don't want to do that, but this is out of control. We feel like we are fighting him every time.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.... please??????????

Aaron

Offline Tonya

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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2005, 00:51:32 am »
The comment "he's arching his back" alerted me.

Have you checked the colic/crying boards at all?

My ds had symptoms of arching back, fighting EVERY SINGLE SLEEP TIME(unless we would hold him upright), screaming, etc.
He was diagnosed wiht Milk and Soy Protein allergy, as well as reflux (which is what I am thinking for you) at 6 weeks old.

Does your lo have any of the symptoms on the reflux 101 post?  Check it out, and post back.  If I'm way off base, I'll try to help you with other ideas!
Tonya
Mom to Nathan - "Chunky Butternut", 02/18/04
           Madison - "Princess Pea", 11/29/06


all74

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Please help - at the end of our ropes, ready to Ferberize!
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2005, 01:08:02 am »
Quote from: Tonyaamstutz
The comment "he's arching his back" alerted me.

Have you checked the colic/crying boards at all?

Does your lo have any of the symptoms on the reflux 101 post?  Check it out, and post back.  If I'm way off base, I'll try to help you with other ideas!

Thanks for the reply... no, he doesn't have the symptoms listed on reflux 101... he will often lie on his back for 30 min or more if he's playing or on his activity mat. And he rarely spits up (maybe twice in a month, and then only a spoonful).

He's a VERY social child... I think that he hates being away from us. He'll often look right at me when I put him down and either smile or give me the "please help me I need you so much" face :( I don't cave, by the way. Once we start we go through with it. But the fighting at night is starting to last longer and longer (used to only take 15-25 minutes to get him down) AND now he's starting to fight naps :( I think that this is what's pushing us to abandon the babywhisper method and just let him cry; if we can't get some solid naps out of him we HAVE to be able to sleep at night, or else my wife and I will go spare (insane).

Are we doing something wrong here? He was teething, but the teeth that were coming through (front bottom two) are both clearly out, and he's WORSE now than he was when they were cutting!

Offline Tonya

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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2005, 02:26:44 am »
Ok, why don't you post his daily routine, so we can take a look?  Maybe there will be some "clues" there!!

Please don't let him "cry it out", do "controlled crying" or anything like that.  I promise there are a ton of mom's on here that can help you if I can't!

Letting them cry just destroys trust, and if he already doesn't want you to leave, I fear you will just hurt him even more!

Post his routine, and we'll offer every bit of help we can!

Thanks!
Tonya
Tonya
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Offline Deb_in_oz

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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2005, 03:12:56 am »
both my girls arch their backs as a sign of being very ready for bed!  dd1 would actually arch right back from our arms toward the cot!

it really couild be that your lo is already overtired by the time you see the yawn, eye rub, etc (i know mine needs to bein the cot before that stage or we have a long battle for sleep)

i say it all the time these days but my mantra at that age was "earlier to bed the better for everyone" - without fail when i put her down at 1 hr she woudl sleep well and go off easily.  it took until dd2 was 4 - 4 1/2 mo to stay up 1hr 30.  i suggest trying to put down 15 min EARLIER than usual and see what impact - you have to play around with the timing a bit to find what works best but it definitely sounds like he is overtired and cannot wind down / let go.  spend the end of awake time in dim light cuddling, singing, looking at books, etc LOW KEY.

Good luck and i agree that you can solve this without CIO - you will be worse off otherwise.
Debra - a New Yorker living in Australia married to a Brit

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all74

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« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2005, 05:12:14 am »
Thanks for your replies... we are really so deperate at this point, I don't think either my husband or I has another day or two in us to manage this problem. I feel like we've used the babywhisperer methods faithfully for at least two, two and a half weeks, and things are actually getting worse.

Our son seems to get more frantic when we stand there watching him cry and don't pick him up, and even then, he cries and cries. He also seems to have developed a bad association with the bedroom, which I've been trying to address by playing and feeding in there in the day. But pretty much, as soon as we enter the bedroom, sit in the chair, and start talking softly, our son starts to go ballistic.

Here's the schedule that he's more or less been approximating in the last few weeks. It's from Gina Ford's books (from the UK).

7 am wake up and feed (usually takes him 40-60 minutes to feed)
9 am naptime (45 minute nap)
11 am feed
12 naptime (2 hours to 2 hours and 15 minutes)
2:15/2:30 wake up and feed
4:30-5:30 catnap (20-30 minutes)
5:30 (approximate) bathtime
6 pm feed and quiet time in chair
7 pm bedtime (this is where we've run into the most consistent problems)

He is still waking in the night to feed. We can usually count on him waking first about 3 hours after he finally falls asleep, so that's usually between 10:30 and 11:30 pm. And then after that, he wakes about four hours later-- usually somewhere between 2 and 3:30 am. I give him a very short nurse and place him back in bed asleep. He will usually wake up again after that, starting at around 5 am, two or three times before 7 am. We shush pat him back to sleep or use the binkie.

This is a delightful baby when we are not dealing with sleep issues. He smiles, coos, cuddles, and loves to be with us. He is so interested in what's going on around him, can watch things and take things in for long periods of time... we adore him, but these sleep issues are taking such a toll on us all and we are not enjoying each other very much these days. And like my husband wrote earlier, things are getting worse. The last few days, he seems opposed to following the established schedule that he had established prior to all this. He had a doctor's appt the other day, and we have ruled out ear infection, fever, and it doesn't look like he has other teeth on their way yet.

Let us know what you think... we can use any help that you can possibly offer.

Offline Deb_in_oz

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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2005, 05:49:19 am »
ok - i have a few thoughts and i hope you do not get offended

first - i do have some experience with Gina Ford as I watched my SIL force my nephew to stay awake according to Gina's schedule...  he cried so much from being overtired that we called him "sad Jack".  he was far from contented.  My first thought is still that your lo is overtired by the time you are putting him down for sleeps.

second - i know Gina says to limit sleep to 45 min in the morning at this age - are you waking him up from a sleep in order to stick to her schedule?  if so i say leave him be.  if he is waking on his own at 45 min you should be trying to get him to resettle to sleep for longer.

third - you say he gets frantic when you "watch" him cry and don't pick him up.  if you follow Tracy's books she does not advocate leaving them to cry.  you shoudl pick him up and calm him down.  as soon as he is quiet you put him back down in the cot.  if he starts cring again you repeat this.  over and over until he learns over time that he will be spending this time in his cot (the aim is that he will sleep instead of crying in the end)

finally - with BW most people do a "dream feed" between 10-=11pm so your feed around 10:30 fits in there.  when he wakes for a feed around 2-3:30 if he is hungry I would allow him to nurse fully rather than offering a "short feed" which is more like a stop gap rather than tiding him over until 6-7am (which is an acceptable time to start the day)

I wish you luck - i do think it is important to understand that each child is an individual and you will need to decide whether you want to follow Gina Ford or implement BW because there are elements of GF that go against what Tracy was teaching (ie - she does not suggest putting a child on a routine they are not ready for - whether it is 4 hrly feeds or restricting nap times to such a degree as GF advocates)

i dohope i am being helpful and you do not take offense, i hope that your lo gets the rest that he needs
Debra - a New Yorker living in Australia married to a Brit

dd1 - Textbook/Angel, born July 2003
dd2 - Spritied through & through, born Feb 2005

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Offline sa

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« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2005, 06:17:29 am »
in my limited experience, i know that if my DS is fighting hard for his nap/sleep, he is not ready for that nap/sleep.

can your DS fall asleep on his own?
can you tell if he is fighting because he is overtired or just angry because he doesn't want to sleep?

for bedtime, i think you can try and move to 8pm, leave at least 2 hours (do some experiment here, try 1.5 hour or 1.75 hour) between last nap and bedtime, i know some said in the evening babies are normally more tired. but i found that with my DS leaving a bigger gap between last nap and bedtime helps.

hth
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textbook/angel baby

Offline Gareth - Harvey & Theo's Dad

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« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2005, 08:49:33 am »
I have to agree with Debinoz on this one, I think your lo is overtired, and getting conflicting messages.  First I would suggest switching your schedule to EASY throughout the day, for the evening's I would suggest cluster-feeding and try adopting a dreamfeed to counter the 10.30-11.30 wake up.

I'm not sure of how much you've read, but here's some additional resources that can be helpful in making you decide;

Typical hours of sleep
http://www.babywhisperer.com/forum/typical-hours-of-day-and-night-sleep-1-week-to-6yrs-vt46.html

Suggested EASY routine
http://www.babywhisperer.com/forum/tracys-suggested-3-and-4-hour-easy-routines-vt28403.html

Research on why cio is not wise
http://www.babywhisperer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19710&highlight=

We saw instantaneous results when we switched Harvey to EASY at 4.5months.
Gareth

Harvey - 18 Nov 2003

Theo - 24 Dec 2005

Offline chell

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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2005, 08:54:04 am »
Hi Aaron, I had similar problems with my Jacob when he was younger. I agree with Debra, in that I think your little boy may be very overtired and maybe overstimulated too. I had to be really vigillant watching him closely for the first signs of tiredness. Once he had got to the second yawn, it was too late, sometimes even by the first!.

Your little boy is still very young. Jacob needed to nap after every 45mins! and if I missed the signs and he didnt nap, the day would progressively get worse.

Revisit secrets of the baby whisperer pages 80-82 & 86-88. Really study your baby stop and observe before picking him up to work out what is going on. Tired, overtired or hunger can be reasons for back arching.
I used to swaddle and this helped - bit tricky at first worked with practice.

Patience, consistency and persistency seemed to be the key things, even though it felt like to the point of maddness alot of the time.

Tracy Hogg did a sleep interview which was posted on the bw website - it went into much more detail than the book which was helpful. maybe you could ask mathews mommy or one of the moderators about it.

I am no expert,  and the one thing which really helped me was emailing mathewsmommy@thebabywhisperer.com
She helped me so much, when I felt that everything was failing and turned it around for us.
Jacob now sleeps well. Iam sure your little boy will too if you get good advice and stick to it.

Let me know what happens.
Good luck

Cheryl.
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Offline Katet

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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2005, 11:02:14 am »
Have to agree with debinoz, I read the contented baby book & showed it to my friend who is an early childhood nurse... she said there is no way baby under 4 months can stay awake the periods of time she expects & not have to cry off to sleep for at least 20mins.
All the guidelines I have for sleep say at around the 3 month mark 1.5 hours is the normal awake time, by about 4.5 months babies can make about 2 hours.
My Sister & a friend both used  a modified "contended baby" method after trying it & finding their lo's got very overtired so looking at other information the started giving an 1.5 hours where she says 45 mins, the long nap & a 45 min catnap in the evening & both had babies that slept through from 2 months!
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Offline Khyan & Sahria's mum

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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2005, 12:36:32 pm »
I also followed the Gina Ford method when DS was tiny. I read it before he was born and said I would follow it to the key - and well I did !  :cry:

As much as I am not trying to completely insult GF methods I have to say that I truly set my work out for myself by following it  :?

Khyan was about 5 mths old when I found baby whisperer and at that time I had set him up for 45 mins wakings, for no trust (allowing CIO), and a child that was TOTALLY overtired and therefore woke ALL night, and each nap was a disaster.

I honestly think that your situation may be like ours was with your LO being really overtired.

I think that you will find that even if your LO doesn't show signs that at around 1hr 15 - 30mins of awake time that if you tried to put him down you would have a little more luck.

The people here at BW have saved us....  :D  :D  :D hopefully you will get all the help you need here too and just like me will start to think of these people as family.

PU/PD may sound like hard work but is so worthwhile in the end. Just remember that the aim is to be there for your LO and although they will cry - they do know that you are there for them and will pick them up if they are truly crying but that you are teaching them a truly wonderful skill

Hugs to you all
xx
Michaela
Khyan & Sahria's Mummy




Offline heather10

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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2005, 13:07:57 pm »
I know you are at the end of your rope, but if you can arrange with DH that you two will work together on this issue, I think you can both fix this - but you need to  help each other since you are both so frazzled and ready to give up.  re-implementing these things will take a little more work and you may feel like you are doing it for nothing or seeing no benefit.  While I know that it feels like forever when a baby cries, you mentioned you've been at this for 2 or 2.5 weeks - that really isn't a long time, and to be honest, it isn't enough time for baby to have completely adjusted to it - not to mention I am not sure you guys have been doing all the BW stuff properly (I don't mean to offend) and this is understandable when you are tired - I break her rules all the time and still do and feel guilty but that is another post!

Back arching is a sign of extreme fatigue.  My son is 8 weeks today and can only stay awake 45 minutes, and sometimes very rarely 60.  This latest stretching of the time to 60 has only happened this week and really only about 10% of the time.   I watch him like a hawk from the time he wakes once his feed is done, and this means I don't grab breakfast, don't pee, don't leave him lest I miss the window because if I miss it by even 5 minutes sometimes, it screws things up.  I am going through it right now as DS struggles to stay asleep because I waited too long while getting DS breakfast.  He yawned at 15 minutes and I thought "he can't possibly be tired yet, let's wait and see" - big mistake, so we are all there in some way or other.

I would say, like Debinoz mentioned, to pull back your sleep.  90 minutes is a really long time for them at that age, and for some, it may take months before they can stay awake that long.  You can't follow a book verbatim and expect that they will conform to a routine set out in a book - they aren't robots after all, and like you and me, they have some days where they can stay awake longer, and others where sleep is all they want to do. 

Remember that when he is crying, he is really saying "mommy please help me fall asleep, I am so tired" - he needs you.  CIO while tempting at this point will only set you very far back, and if you have the latest book by Tracy, can lead to room fears (sounds like you have those somewhat now) and that can take up to 4 weeks to resolve using her plan.

Start fresh today, since it is Monday and consider it a fresh start.  Aim to have your baby back in his bed at the 45 minute mark.  You may have a baby who by the time he first yawns is already tired.  This is part of learning him i.e. does he have any reserve after that first yawn, or is it too late by that first yawn?   Every baby is different and you will find that he himself changes where now he has no ability to stay up past the yawn, but in a few months he will - you need to adjust along with him.

Maybe you and DH can take turns with the evening wind down so that at least one of you gets a break.  Perhaps the one who doesn't do the bedtime routine can do something nice for the one who does - massage, bath, etc...so that you are truly supporting each other through it.

Do try implementing the dreamfeed.  It happens from 10-11 and in your case I would start at 10:00 since he sometimes wakes before that.  If he is waking at 9:30, maybe even do the DF at 9:15 before he wakes to prevent the wake, and then a few nights later push it to 9:30, then 10:00 and hopefully this will let you guys sleep past that first wake a little more.

When he wakes at 2:00, why do you give him a short feed?   THe feed he is taking at 10 or so is not considered a "night feed" and babies need one night feed usually at this age.  By giving him a short feed you are creating his need to wake at 5am for another one cause he didn't get enough at 2.  He will then keep waking and be unsettled because this is now his third sleep interruption of the night since going to bed, and he is going to wake exhausted.

I think we need to also remember that babies are like us - if he is having his sleep interrupted three times in the night, he will wake tired.  I will bet that his first awake period will be very short on mornings when he had a bad night like that.  We would be the same.  I had a rough night last night and that likely explains why DS was yawning at the 15 min mark.  I just didn't believe it, and so here we are waking every 15 mins into the nap unsettled and getting progressively more tired - my bad.

I hope this works out for you  guys.  Remember to be a team with the end goal to be to get his daytime sleep sorted out - the night follows all by itself when the day is good.
Baby boy - Adam Sean - born June 6, 2005

all74

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« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2005, 15:26:47 pm »
We appreciate your replies. We're not offended-- we're just trying to muddle our way through this like everyone else. We ARE really frustrated and confused and need something that's going to work so that we can enjoy our baby and our marriage. Your postings are helpful on the one hand, and on the other hand, it all seems so complicated that I can barely take it in in my current state.

Like you all, I'm sure, we are not rigid when it comes to the daily routine. Although I posted the GF routine as what our son has been doing, we chose it because it was the closest to what he was already doing on his own. We watch closely for sleepy signs instead of forcing him to stay awake until the specified times. And although we have used her routine, we have not used any of her methods.

We have been using PU/PD and the shush pat faithfully for some time now and only "watch him cry" if he starts to physically fight us, which he has been doing a lot lately. We've read Tracy's stuff on PU/PD carefully, and we've been using her suggestion that you not try to fight a baby with PU/PD when he exhibits those signs.

The shorter period of wakefulness that has been suggested by a number of you is something that we are willing to try more of. He HAS seemed overtired. As we are not rigid about his schedule, we have put him down earlier than the specified times when we see sleepy signs (which we don't always see). We do, however, get the same "fighting" behavior that we described earlier and for just about as long so that he ends up asleep after two hours of wakefulness anyway. Therefore, I doubt it will make the actual falling asleep any easier, but he could potentially get more sleep if that is what he needs.

As to the night feedings, I give a shorter feeding in the middle of the night because it is all I can get him to take before he falls back asleep. This could very well be the reason why he wakes a number of times between 5 and 7 am, although he did the same when he was still feeding twice between midnight and 7 am. And our dreamfeeds often wake him up, especially since we tend to have to work to get him to take much when he's asleep. Every night that we do it, our son wakes up about four hours later so that it doesn't seem to make a difference if he wakes on his own or we do a dreamfeed.

These are just a few of the issues that you all mentioned. There are others that I have not responded to, but maybe this is enough for now... other than to say that I do have the full support of my husband in tackling these problems-- we do take turns, relieve each other, etc.

Offline Erin M

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« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2005, 15:38:55 pm »
Just a thought - he seems to be on more of a 4 hour schedule right now - is it possible he still needs to be on more of a 3 hour schedule?  I don't know if you're nursing full time, but if you are, many babies at 15 weeks still need to be on more of a 3 to 3.5 hour schedule.  It might help with your night wakings as well if he ate more often during the day.  I could be totally wrong, but just a thought.