Sooooo confused and depressed!

[Monche]

I just wanted to point out that in her sleep interview, Tracy says that you should only try to get them to sleep for 45 min, a sleep cycle. However, when talking about pu/pd, she often says that it is not unusual for first timers to need 1.5 hrs, so I guess it is up to you hopw to interpret this.

[oscar10405]

Where have you all gone?  :shock:   We have started today.  It is as bad as I thought.  The first session last about 1.5 hours.  At first, I put him down sleepy but awake and went to sleep!  We couldn't believe it, and thought NO WAY!  He's never done that.  Then he woke up 20 mins later and it was pu/pd for 1.5 hours.  Eventually, he fell asleep sobbing lightly but woke up 10 mins later.  It was almost time for a feed so I fed him and kept him up for about 20 mins, low key. My husband is in there now, starting again.  I'm so scared it's not going to work.  We have him on his side but he keeps moving his head around to look at me with big eyes and it kills me. 

ps I've ordered the book, will take 2 weeks to get here as we live fairly remote.

[chell]

Hi Oscar 1045!
That's brilliant that you've started. It is going to be tough at first, I can really relate to that. KEEP GOING!  You're doing fine.

Remember- the key things are:

CONSISTENCY
PERSISTENCY and
PATIENCE

My Baby was a touchy/textbook babe and sleep - of any kind was a problem. We stuck with BW methods and now sleep is fine. Seems to have turned into an angel baby.
It will work. Sometimes they do wake up at around 10 and 20 mins, this can be when they are making the transition from light to a deeper sleep. Jacob always did this. (for him it was 12 mins & 20 mins) I could set  the clock by it.

Your doing Brilliantly!!

Keep us all posted.

Hugs
Cheryl

[oscar10405]

Thanks Cheryl - your encouragement helps so much.  I feel so badly for him, especially since he has never slept without us.  I'm nervous about tonight - and feel very sad because it was very special sharing the bed with him (even though we didn't sleep well, I still worry that I am missing out on some bonding here).  I will persist though, we've started now, too mean to turn back isn't it? 

One question....we are currently doing the p/u p/d when he cries but when he's calm we are patting him on the back etc in the cot.  Once he is asleep, how long do we keep patting him for?  I read in Tracy's interview that it's about 20 mins or so.  The reason I'm confused is this.  Is the patting another thing that he's going associate with sleep?  Ie  He's not really 'self-settling' if I am patting him?  Or is this okay and not a prop?

Thanks to anyone who can answer that...

[oscar10405]

Please help!  I'm scared that we are doing it all wrong. 

This is how it's gone so far - please tell me I'm doing this right, he's getting so upset and it's killing me...

12.00 Nap time, did the wind down etc, then put him in the cot, on his side and patted his back.  He went to sleep very quicky but woke up after 20 mins and so we did the pu/pd for about an hour and then he slept for about 10 mins, woke up, then we did pu/pd for about 10 mins but it became feed time, so I fed him and kept him up for about 20 mins.

2.30pm Nap time again, almost the same as the first time, he eventually got about 20 mins and my DH has been going for about an hour trying to get him to have more.  He calms straight away when he's pick up and screams as soon as you start lowering him.  Then he 'whimpers' and sniffs - I've NEVER heard my baby sniff from crying - it's making me feel so deeply sad...

It's now 4.40pm and I don't know if we keep persisting until next feed. 

Please, someone, is this normal?  Do you spend all day and night doing this until he has a longish sleep?  I feel so evil.

[Onewoman]

You're doing great Oscar! Yes, it is normal for him to get upset, but at least you are there with him, helping him through his frustrations, instead of leaving him to cry it out on his own - which I think is cruel! Try not to give up or all that crying and all the stress you are going through will be for nothing.

It's wonderful that your partner is so supportive and helpful - I wish I had that - I had to do it all on my own.

You said you were worried if you were doing it right. Here's something I wrote a little while back, maybe it will reassure you and help a bit:

Initially I tried a combination of pat/shh and pick up/put down. This seemed to work pretty well. Trying to think back now to what I actually did??  Well, first off I always take her up athe first sign of tiredness, which is about 1.5 hrs after she has woken up; shut the curtains, swaddle with one arm out (she starts to cry here as she knows she is going to sleep!) I put her up against my chest and pat/shh until she is breathing deeply but not asleep or until she starts to arch and wriggle. Then I put her down on her side and pat her bum and do a little shhing if she needs it, if she settles quickly I just put my hand on her for a minute, then go. I try to keep her in the crib to soothe her, often times she finds her thumb or I put it in her mouth (she normally goes to sleep here). If she is unsettled or overtired and starts crying even with me soothing her in the crib, I pick her up and do a little more patting until she relaxes again or wriggles. Then put her down again and do the same and just keep going with the same pattern until she falls asleep. At first it took quite a few goes, but now I can generally soothe her in the crib if she cries. That was the first goal! It took about 2/3 days til I could just leave her in the crib. I think she is so used to going to sleep in the crib now instead of on me she settles pretty quickly. The other thing I did fin the beginning was when she was settled in the crib, but not asleep I would stay out of sight in the room so if she started crying again I could go back to her easily (and if she went to sleep sneak out of the room!), always starting with trying to settle in the crib. I generally don't shush now, just pat unless she is really upset.

Hope today is better for you all

[oscar10405]

Thanks Onewoman!  I am lucky to have my husband.  I basically wouldn't do it otherwise so you are very, very brave!    He finally went to sleep the second time but only for 40 mins.  It's now time to bath and do the nightime routine (sigh!).  It's been harder than I thought.  So...you left before she was asleep?  This part confuses me as the sleep interview says that you pat them asleep and keep it going for 20 mins or they'll wake up again and you have to start all over?

We also have a "momma bear" they plays womb sounds.  He seems to love it but I think he knows when it turns itself off (after 40 mins) so now I'm doubting using this too?! 

Does anyone else find this stuff so unbelievably complex?  I used to think I was intelligent!?  :?

[chell]

HI Oscar - Just got back in! It was interesting to read one womans post, it really mirrored my experience.
I found it all terribly complicated at first. It wasn't really until I had been through it that I really understood it all. ( I used to think I was reasonably intelligent too!) Basically, it's all about teaching babies skills for independence - particularly sleep!

It sounds as though you are doing very well - You got bub to sleep for 40 mins - that's great!

There are a few things I wanted to try to help with -

Firstly momma bear. 40 - 45mins - is the length fo the average sleep cycle. At this point the baby rouses from a deep to light to wakeful state. If they haven't learnt to fall asleep again they will wake up completely. It may be that your baby has not become dependent on momma bear, but not quite learned how to get back to sleep.
You could try taking it away. I would say that if your Bub is no more distressed than usual, it'd be worth not using it - you dont want to create more problems. However if they do find it distressing, then perhaps leave this for now and tackle it as a separate issue later.

At approx 10 and 20 mins ( I think I have that right ) They pass through from light to deeper sleep. At this point, they can also wake. I could time Jacob to the minute! I think this is why Tracy says pat for the whole 20 mins. If a baby is awake and not distressed it is ok to leave them to settle on their own, but remember that you are still at the begining stages of teaching bub how to get himself off. As time goes on you'll probably be able to do this. She also says only continue for the length of one sleep cycle-45mins, before having a break by taking the bub out of the room.
It's also the right thing to do, by feeding him when he is due, even if you have not been able to get him to sleep.

[chell]

Ok, just a couple more things.

If you are unsure how long to keep patting for, I would do a little experiment. Get a little seat - I used a storage box with a pillow at cot height, so that my back didn't ache when patting, and put a clock or watch that you can see ok. Once Oscar is asleep, stop the patting and really observe him - his breathing, any movements etc and see what happens. Watch to see what the time is when he begins to stir. You may notice his breathing change , he may squeek, or do that juddery breath thing. Babies sometimes do this when they are passing into a deeper state. This is the bit that you have to try and get them through using patting, shhshing. Do this several times and it will give you an idea of what is happening. Or you may find that you don't actually need to continue patting for the full 20 mins. With Jacob, I could stop patting, but at 12 and 20 mins, I would have to start again. I would pre- empt it and start patting just before I thought he was going to stir. I had to do it lots of times but it did work.

I also did what One woman did - when Jacob cried, I'd pick him up, p/sh until he was calm, not crying his eyes may have closed but he was not asleep. I'd pop him in the cot and if he started again, repeat. This way you can comfort Oscar until he stops crying.

Yes I think p/sh can become a prop. The difference is though, with this kind of prop you can grade it - ie gradually reduce the length of time, and you can also do it while they are in the cot, which is different from rocking, jigging or using something like a wind up toy - like momma bear.

Hope this helps a bit.

I am not an expert, so  I won't be offended if anyone corrects me!

Good Luck

Cheryl

[Maddy's Mum]

Hi there,

I am so so sorry I haven't chimed in for a couple of days - just in the middle of moving house and I am pregnant and wiped out!! I have read through the advice that the other ladies have given you and they are great, very supportive  :lol:

The one thing which popped into my mind when I was looking at your EASY routine, was has DS ever shown any signs of reflux? There is a list of symptoms on the reflux boards - Mads had reflux and she was very unsettled until we got her on some meds and elevated her cot.

How are things going today?

Dee
x

[Maddy's Mum]

Hello again!

I have just re-read through your post on your EASY schedule and could you just confirm that I have this right:

E 7
A
S 8.30-9.30

E 10
A
S 12.50-1.20


E 1
A
S Fights nap at 3ish


E 4
A
Bedtime routine starts at 7.30
Sleep - 9.30
DF

I think with a few tweaks to help you get onto a consistent 3 hour EASY routine - DS would get more calories during the day so would need less at night which would aid sleep training. Also - are you currently doing sleep training in his crib in his room for each nap and bedtimes? Is his bedtime routine exactly the same each day?

Sorry about all the questions  :lol: 

Dee
x

[oscar10405]

Hi - thanks to all for your replies, i really do live for them these days!  Today is Day 2.  The night was awful, but I kind of expected it to be.  One of Oscar's big problems at night is the wind (I have mentioned this earlier).  Should I post something in the 'nightwakings' section?  Basically, from about 2am onwards, he starts wriggling and looking uncomfortable, bringing his knees up a bit and grunting etc, and then eventually doing some farts.  This goes on until the morning and if I don't try to settle him through it all, he wakes up fully.  I was up every 20 - 30 mins with this from 2am to 6am when he decided it was UP time.  I fed him at 3am too.   I eat dairy-free, gluten-free and have very bland veges at night with dinner (carrots, corn, peas - never broccoli, onion etc).  I do have 2 pears a day as my only fruit intake so I'm going to cut them out today and see if that makes a difference?!  It's just that it's useless trying to do these new methods when he's clearly not comfy.

Dee - yes, we did look into the reflux thing but I don't think he's got it.  We tried Zantac for a few days, no difference and he is very happy to play on his back during the day?  I think it's wind as he does lots of farts (at night) and in the morning, a big explosive poo! (PS  I know how horrible moving can be, I did it pregnant and was very tired!)

We have ditched the Momma Bear because it went through a set of batteries every session?!  Crazy. 

This morning, I fed him in bed at 6ish and he was so tired he wanted to cuddle next to me and sleep - broke my heart as I moved him back to his cot (of course he wouldn't sleep then so we got up). 

Thanks for all your support ladies, means so much to me.  Sorry my posts are so long....one day hopefully I'll have not much to write!

[chell]

  Hi Mum of Oscar. You are doing so well.
My Jacob also suffered with wind and colic, which gradually got better as time went on. Can you get anything to relieve this? In England we have infacol for infants and gripe water for the older babies. It really helped with wind, but have to say didn't make much difference with the colic, which he just outgrew. I think there are some tips in Tracy's book about dealing with these problems. Do you take time to wind him thoroughly? I used  to have to do thsi for 30mins+ before bedtime, and even then he would wake 3 or more times and need winding.

I  tried changing my diet but felt it made little difference. I think its ok to carry on with the plan, you can still comfort him while doing the p/sh thing.

Keep going :wink:
Cheryl

[chell]

Just been reading some of your  older messages, and you say that Oscar wakes at 40 mins. Could you go into the room just before he stirs and then as you think he is waking place a hand on his chest and gently apply some pressure. If he continues to stir begin p/ shing in the cot . See if this gets him back off.

Can you tell us exactly what you are doing just before sleeps and what are you doing now to get him off?

Cheryl

[oscar10405]

Hi everyone, thanks again for your replies.  I just typed a post then tried to attach a photo of Oscar and lost it all!   :x

Now I'm too tired to type it again, going to go to bed - it's getting late here. 

Will reply tomorrow.....(yawn!)