Sooooo confused and depressed!

[oscar10405]

Hi again....This is become a long saga I know, but we're getting closer to a resolution, I think...!

We are on Day 3 now, Oscar has just gone down for his first morning nap.  I'll write basically what we've been doing, the only thing I'm vague on his times because it always varies slightly.

The last two days, we begin at 7am (ish), he has a feed (then little cuddle in our bed for about 15mins - I really feel he needs this little bit?!).  He's usually up for 1.5 hours but sometimes less as he gets tired a bit sooner (maybe because the nights are crappy!). 

For every nap, including night time (except we have a bath), we play some relaxing baby music (mum's hearbeat etc) and 'slow dance' for about 10 mins.  Then we go into the room, put him in his sleeping bag, say "it's time to sleep" and put him down, on his side and start 'shushing' and patting on back.  He always cries but it isn't hysterical and has been taking, on average, 10-15 mins.  We stay with him for about 15-20 mins, patting lightly.  He always wakes up at 40 min mark, we go in and re-settle the same way (it sometimes takes only 5 mins) and stay with him again for 15-20 mins.  He has been sleeping for another 45 min cycle.  I don't try for a 3rd after that!  Oh - I forgot, he had a nap around 5.30pm yesterday and I didn't try to resettle after 40 mins because it was too close to night time - this is okay isn't it?

At night, it's the same thing, bed around 7.30-8.00 or when he gets tired.  I have been giving him the dream feed at 11pm but we noticed he started to get squirmy after that so my husband picked him up for about 10 mins for his food to go down and then put him down.  It seemed to help a bit but he was harder to put down because quite awake at that point!. 

He woke at 2.45 am so I fed him.  I held him against my chest and rocked for about 10 mins after that to let his food go down and then he did big poo (unusual for night now) so I changed him.  He thought it was play time then and was very awake but I got him back to sleep, but it was 4am by this stage!  (i think the poo might have helped him with the wind factor every night, maybe that's why he struggles because the feeds are making him want to poo but he doesn't poo as well lying down?).

He woke again at 4.45, I patted him back to sleep, then again at about 5.45....then 7.15!.....Ahhhhh......what a night.

SO.......I don't know - I guess it's sort of working, but he still cannot get past the first cycle.  We try to go in before he wakes to catch it but he wakes up the same anyway, it's not like we stop him from waking by being there.

Dee - Do you think I should go back to 3 hourly feeds?  I don't mind feeding him in the night, just sucks that the whole process takes so long.  What about the dream feed? That always wakes him up!

Also, I don't think he's got reflux, we did look into that but we don't think he does.  I think he has more tummy problems, digestive issues.

Thanks again - any suggestions GREATLY appreciated.  It's still very stressful and hard work, just a different kind of hard work!  We still creep around the house and be quiet and feel we spend most of the day in there settling him!  But.........I hope this will improve with time?.

One thing I do hate is seeing him cry EVERY time he goes to sleep, I wish that sleep was a nice thing for him to do, not fight every time.  That makes me sad?

xxx

[oscar10405]

Me again......today has been unusual (Day 3).  This morning, we put him down and he did the usual 45 min thing so we re-settled and he woke only 20 mins later so we resettled and he got another 20 mins or so?  Then the next nap, we put him down and he went past the 45 min mark (we were silently thrilled but cautious...!) and woke up after an hour?  I went in and he seemed pretty awake, not crying or anything so we got him up?  Then he got cranky after only 20 mins of being up so we thought 'did we make a mistake and should we have re-settled?'.  Anyway, I kept him up for nearly 2 hours and put him down.  He's now in there, and it's been 1 hour, 15 mins. 

Can someone tell me....is a little over 45 mins acceptable (an hour or just over)?  Surely sometimes they only need a shorter nap?   

Please be patient with me ladies, I'm getting the hang of it , very slowly albeit!  xx

[Onewoman]

Wow! You are doing excellently :lol: Well done to both of you for sticking with it when you must have felt like giving up many times - you've made such progress. It sounds like it's more than sort of working to me! Now for your questions!

Yes, he needs his cuddles! We usually have cuddles in bed in the morning too.
Yes the last nap of the day at say 5ish shouldn't be too long, maybe 30 -45 mins.
The wind :shock: ...Oh the wind :shock: ....I had just the same problem. Now after cutting loads of things out of my diet (I saw you eat peas - they can be fart makers), I always keep Ruby upright for a while after feeds (I know it's hard to do at night!), also if I feed her when we are laying down she gets really windy, so I raise her body and head when feeding so she is as upright as possible. But ultimately it is just something she has grown out of as her tummy has got a bit bigger, she seems to be able to get it up better.

Give it a little while and soon he probably won't cry at sleeptime, although Tracey says some babies need to have a little cry to get their stress out and relax.

Yes, you are on the right track and soon you will be able to put him down awake and he will settle himself and you won't be spending all that time in the bedroom!

A 45 min or hour nap is fine as long as they wake up happy.

Well done again!

[chell]

Wow Weee !! You are doing so well!
You've got a great nap/bedtime routine going
You've stuck at it and
You've managed to get Oscar past 45mins.  :wink: 

That is just brilliant. You are well on the way to independent sleep. You should congratulate yourself and treat yourself to something nice.   

Just keep going and it will continue to improve. I agree with Onewoman. Don't get too upset at his crying before a sleep, eventually this will probably stop. Remember that you are still there with him, your not just leaving him to cry it out.

With feeding - I cut out night time feeds quite early on, I just made sure that he got all of his calories in during the day instead - about 6-8 feeds. in 12 hours. Of course this began to change with weaning. I'm not sure what others think about this? But it made me feel a whole lot better getting a good nights sleep. Personally I'd cut out the 11 o clock feed if it wakes him up - maybe try to fit it in during the day.
What does everyone else think about this?

Cheryl

[oscar10405]

Thanks for all your support and praise

Day 4 and I still have questions.....sorry, but really getting down to it now! 

The naps during the day - exactly how many should be longer than 45? - I just don't want to force him to over sleep and affect night time.  I'm guessing two longish sleeps and one short one?  Can someone confirm this? :?:
The dreaded night:  Last night, same again, awake every hour or so.  I dreamfed him at 10.30, he woke up then and was very upset and hungry I think?  I prolonged feeding him until 4am?  I don't know what I'm doing here?!!  He's very up to give big feeds during the day because he only ever wants one booby - i try to give him more but he's full.  He has also woken up for 2 mornings at 6am and seems full of beans.  I have gotten him up but he's tired an hour later. 

Questions:  :?: How do you know if they need that night feed?  Or even the dream feed?  If i fed him 4 hourly, there's no way he would get 6 - 8 feeds in the day?

The early start - 6 am is a killer for me!  What should I do here?  Feel mean forcing him back to sleep when he seems pretty awake?!  Maybe I wouldn't mind so much if I wasn't up every hour!

Thanks again - please, please be patient with me - I will stop bugging and monopolising your board soon!   :?

[oscar10405]

Just to add to my last post - he's not done any 'miracle' naps today.  He's woken up at 45 mins for both his two naps.  Both times, I have re-settled him and he's gone for another 30 - 45 mins.  I guess this is better than nothing?  We've tried going in before the 45 min mark but he wakes up just as fully as he does when we're not there to catch it.  I guess there's not much else we can do here, maybe this will get better on it's own?  He he, wishful thinking.. :wink:

I just want to say a BIG thanks to everyone again - I am nearly done with this and will make more specific posts to the relevant boards next time.  If this works, it will save us an expensive trip interstate to a sleep school where they do controlled crying.  I have been referred as a last resort  :cry:  but hopefully, it won't come to that......Thanks again, I know there's HEAPS of posts on here and I am just one of many.

[Onewoman]

I wish I could do what you have managed to do Chell and get the feeds in in the day, but she's just not interested in feeding any more than 3 - 4 hours :? So she gets fed at 11 pm and 3 am and there doesn't seem to be much I can do about it. Oh well! :lol:

Typically a baby of 4 -6 months needs 5/6 feeds a day of 6 oz (but it's hard to tell when they're b/f how much they have!). Every 4 hours in the day and one/two at night is usual. I have the same prob as you, in that Ruby has a small tummy (I think), as she hardly ever takes more than one boob, although she is starting to have a bit more now. The idea with the 4 hr routine is that they eat more at one sitting, so need less feeds.

 I think the hardest thing is working out when to feed at night if they wake up at other times. My general rule is I won't feed if it's been less than 3 hrs and I always try to resettle first before feeding and look for other problems first (like wind). Also I try to minimise the amount she has to eat so that she takes more in the day. Signs of hunger are turning the head and rooting, though to make things more confusing they can do this when tired too! I think that full night's sleep is probably a little way off for us Oscar!
 :shock:

As far as naps go on the 4hr routine it's awake for 2hrs then sleep for 1.5 - 2 hrs for the first 2 rounds of EASY then a 30/45 min nap for the 3rd round. It doesn't work out that way for me! She seems to have a good nap in the morning of about 1.5 hrs, then I struggle with the next one and the next. So sometimes its a long nap, a short nap, a long nap. Or sometimes she will have a long nap and 3 short naps. She is staying up 1 3/4 - 2 hours now, but wondering whether to try to go to 2 1/4 so she sleeps better....hmmm. Can only try and see what happens! Oh yes, a normal amount of sleep in 24 hrs for a 4 month old is about 15 hrs.

As for getting up early - lots of babies rise with the sun - unfortunately! We are up between 6-7. I refuse to get up before 6 - I'm not getting into 5 am wake ups. WHen your routine is more settled you may be able to extend bed time and wake up time but you will probably have to live with the early mornings for now. (One advantage is a nice bit of time for yourself in the evening)

You are really welcome for the help  :lol: And feel free to ask as many questions as you like 

Susana

[oscar10405]

Thanks Susana!   

Our babies sound a little similar!  Thanks for the advice re the 6am waking, I guess I'll have to live with it, as you say, for a while.  I am prould of what he's accomplished in 4 days.  If he would only sleep at night I'd be cheering!  But, at least we have stopped him falling asleep in our arms, I thought that would never end. 

You are so right, when he wakes up sooooo often in the night, it's hard to know when to feed!  I do the same as you and offer it around 3am, about 4 hours after dream feed.  He doesn't seem to drink much whether it be 4 hours or 2 hours apart!   :?

There is something else actually....( :shock: )...we might go 'home' instead in September (instead of going to the sleep clinic) but I am PARANOID about undoing any training we've done up till then.  Does holidays effect things?  I will try to mirror things as much as possible, I guess that's all i can do?  I guess that brings me to my other question, when he starts teething, will all this crumble?  Do they need to be brought into the family bed again when they are sick?  I'd love to know in advance how to handle this?

That's all.....I don't want to push my luck.    :wink:

[Onewoman]

Yes, our babies do sound similar - quite sensitive and full of beans! They even both do the sqaure farts! :lol: 

So today has gone better? Once you have him falling asleep on his own your night times should improve, as he will be able to resettle himself without you. If he's not eating much at night then he probably doesn't need it and is just using the breast as a pacifier (unless its really hot where you are and he needs a little drink?)

I have decided today to change the bedtime routine a bit, as I always fed her just before bed. I am doing feed, bath, story, bed, so it breaks the link of feed - sleep for bedtime. I am also desperate for a good nights sleep and will be in bed by 8 tonight - hopefully! We had it all sorted, just one feed between 7 & 7, until her growth spurt :shock: Then it all went haywire! One thing I am learning is that it changes almost daily, I am always adjusting things. I guess when we have the 4 hr routine sorted we will have a bit of peace - well until the teething starts!

And you are right to be questioning what happens at holidays and teething. Like you say just try and keep things as normal as possible on holiday. I'm not sure about teething yet, but I would avoid letting your lo sleep with you again. We just had a cold and I was up a lot at night because she had problems with the snot interrupting her sleep, but as much as possible I soothed her in the crib or picked her up to soothe her, but always put her back in the crib. I don't think she would have slept any better in bed with me (in fact when I do fall asleep feeding her she fidgets like mad and neither of us sleep very well).

The good thing is even when things go up the wall, if you always use the same techniques pat/shh and pu/pd and don't feed to sleep, you can get back on track quite quickly. They remember what to do. Since things have been difficult for us - and I have been tearing my hair out at times  :shock:  - I have been trying to remember the most important thing is to make sure she falls asleep on her own. My first daughter always fell asleep on the breast and used to wake up to 8 times a night, I was a complete wreck and got very depressed and so I am NOT going down that road again!

Keep in touch, I'd love to know how you are getting on!

[chell]

You are still doing so well - it is fine to have to re-nap Oscar and it is brilliant that you managed to get him to go for another 1/2 hour! You are really achieving a lot. Oscar will get it sooner or later, just carry right on. I had to really work at this with Jacob and re-napped him consistently then it just 'clicked' and he will go for 1 1/2 hours.
Don't worry about 'monopolising the board' !  Its fine, we want to help you get it sorted! (which you will)

Ooopps! gotta go. Will continue later.

Cheryl

[chell]

what lovely names your babies have Susana!

Teething hasn't been too bad for us so far, so don't worry about that at the moment. Like Susana said with holidays etc, the main thing is to keep your routine going. It's not so much where you do it, but how you do it. Yes he may be a little unsettled, but he will remember and you'll soon be back on track again.
Cheryl

[chell]

Oh yes what else was I going to say? umm, I think Susana is right in saying that Oscar probably doesn't need that night feed, if he's not taking much. I don't think it matters that Oscar only takes one side, I always single side fed and it was fine. You should find that whether you single side feed or feed from both sides, that the amount of milk produced for one feed will be enough to satisfy the baby, unless he is going through a growth spurt, which is natures way of getting the body to produce more milk.

When you said he woke up upset and hungry, was he actually showing signs of hunger? It may be worth remembering S.L.O.W. ie stop  - listen - observe - what's up? I know your going to be feeling really tired, but if you take time to check, you'll feel OK about not offering him a feed if he's just waking out of habit.
Does Oscar wake mostly at the same times througout the night?
I know that you are feeding 4 hourly, but it may be worth trying to get an extra feed or two in during the day, or do you think it would be too difficult? I know that Tracy has said somewhere about doing this to try and get them to have all their calories during the day to get them through the night.
Let me know what you think.

Yes I see what you mean Susana about your lo not wanting to feed more often, that must be really tricky. Have you tried gradually delaying the 3/4am feed, so that it gets tagged on to the morning feeds instead? Just a thought.

Cheryl

[oscar10405]

Goodmorning (moaning..)  We have had another terrible night, he woke up 6 times between 7 pm and 12am, then I lost count, but was up regularly for the rest of it!  It's worse than before!  At least before this, when he was in our bed, I was soothing him all night but I didn't have to GET up!  This is so tiring huh?  Pu/pd in the middle of the night - ughhh!

PLEASE tell me the nights get better.....if they don't we might end up at that @#!% sleep school - this is really having a bad effect on my heatlh!

I fed him at 2.45 am, he seemed pretty hungry so I guess he needed it.  Maybe he'll be easier to fill up during the day when he starts solids.

Yesterday's p/u, p/ds were a little tougher, he was very hard to get down last night but I will persist!  He's not hysterical yet, just really stubborn!

Has anyone else had such dramas with the nights?  It's really upsetting me....we don't want to resort to the sleep school.   

Susana - you are very brave to have another baby!  he he...I am too scared to now, it's much harder than I thought!

Thanks Chell for you advice - I really do listen to all of it!  (ps my name is Jane!)

[oscar10405]

Okay - naps have been bad today - could it really be that Day 5 regression thingo?!  He is harder to put down, waking up after 40 mins and not wanting to go further - I don't know if should persist all day like I did on day one or just accept that he wants short naps today and push it too much?  :?

[chell]

Hi Jane, Oh what a night you poor thing! I do sympathise. When Jacob wouldn' t take his naps, I just concentrated on 1 or 2 , as I just found it too much to cope with , doing all of them. The other thing I used to do was a combination of pu/pd and pat /sh. So I would p/sh in my arms until he was at the point of falling asleep  - eyes shut ,breathing slow then pd, then when he cried pu and start again. You will get there. Is the wind still a problem, is he colicy? These things were problems for Jacob, and things really improved at around 5-6 months.

Catch you later
Lots of hugs
Cheryl